the same could be asked of the JLP???? What have they done to suggest a change would be good??
. . .the first step is deciding whether a change in the way the country is governed is even needed. By your use of the wordchange above I assume you mean change of government. Because you already seem to be admitting that a change in the way the country is governed is needed by saying that you're hoping for development, investment etc.(almost every government service in Jamaica is in a state of disrepair and the government's policies aren't geared to attracting investment). If people are satisfied with the state of the economy and the debt, the amount and quality of employment opportunities, the state of roads, police stations, hospitals and schools, the levels of crime and violence, the protection of human rights etc. then maybe no change is needed and thus the PNP are in a strong position to win again since the Prime Minister couldn't have been clearer that she's going to continue Patterson's legacy not solely by saying just that but in her re-endorsement of Patterson's non-performing cabinet and her inaction since she became Prime Minister.
If however it is decided that there needs to be a change in the way the country is governed then the next step is to decide what the best vehicle for that change is. Is it the current government that has been in power for 18 years with the leader that's been a VP for almost 30 years who has made it clear she plans to continue where her predecessor left off? The opposition in our political system does not have the power to create this change so these election come down to whether the people are satisfied with the governance provided by the ruling party.
Alternatively I guess you could compare the opposition's performance the last time they were in power to the current government's performance by looking at whether the infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, roads etc. have improved or deteriorated, whether the atmosphere for investment is more hospitable or more hostile, whether the economy is weaker or stronger, whether we're borrowing more or less to support ourselves and at higher or lower rates of interest, whether there are more or fewer and better or worse employment opportunities for citizens, whether the levels of crime and violence are better or worse, whether there are more or fewer incidents of human rights abuses facilitated thrugh government action/inaction etc.
Well, I dont think anyone will really come on the forum and say big up the PNP..
But I guess that is my point. The electorate have become smarter and I am sure they realise with all the crap they get from the PNP ah better the devil yu know..
Check the speech the opposition leader dropped the other day calling Portia, Hitler. Golding hasn't changed.
The other day I saw the Portland JLP candidate making a speech that came straight out of the 80's.. Them say mi do this.. Them say mi do that.. Guns, Drugs. Kill.. blah blah.But The only thing I'm guilty of is serving my people.. Next day he takes his people out and blocks the road.. The government fi fix the road he shouted with his supporters..
Jamaica cant have that sort of person or people in power...
In England fan4life, the politics is in no better shape than in Jamaica. The opposition mek a whole heap of noise but in reality are in no better shape or have no better ideas or policies to take the country further. Brown has carried on for Blair but will implement his ideas. I suspect Portia will as well. As soon as she gets her own leadership mandate.
Changing Governments to return dung in a di Garrison type politics... Naw.. Dat nuh mek it.
Talking about infrastructure or performance of any particular government makes no difference as both parties are not in power for the people. Changing from one bag a tief to a next is not what Jamaica needs. We just need a bag a tief that will help everyone fi get some of the tiefings. We just pray Portia has more conscience that previous leaderships.
Oh yeah, I dont agree that the JLP has nothing to prove fan4life. They should be proving that they have what it takes to take the country further.. Instead they are showing their weakness and me thinks the electorate unlike in the JFF elections will vote for no change.
Edited by jt (07/09/0705:40 PM)
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The Jamaican version of Live Aid will be held on August 17th(marcus Garvey birthday) in Jamaica for the youths dem as we bring attention to their plight not only in Jamaica but the world over.
Live Aid a try go round rasta and we didn't want to do this but they left us with no choice. How guy a go round wi thing so?
respect
This is the tour that will kick off in Jamaica and tour the world "Rasta for the children" as the headline and under that it will say "Suffer the children to come onto me" a dat the man say so how anyone fi go round that and call themselves children of god? or followers of christ?
carry on beating up unnu gum but right now a the youths dem we a say and since they these women(I have never ever seen so many females who hate children so much in my life how is that even possible? when it takes 9 months to bring a baby to term?) are using their so called Motherly instinct fi carry the election lets see if dem can handle the truth.
War dem want then war dem ago get. Dem ago stop ignore the cries of the youths dem and if dem want to play stupid like dem no hear it then right under them nose on Garvey's birthday we ago put it in dem face 10 days before the election and see what dem ago say then.
Lets see who really loves the future of the race as if we neglect our children we are really neglecting our future and what self respecting so called christian who is talking about being ordained by jesus(a bunch of mockers the whole lot as dem mock the man born April 17th) yet still dem moving like the ANTI CHRIST as we are going anti the teachings to SUFFER THE CHILDREN TO COME ONTO ME.
No nation that neglects its young is a nation of god and no nation that isn't a nation of god will ever prosper.
No you can wish me gone all you want I won't go silently in the night I am here for the youths.
Let the world see then for what they are. Spiritualy dead anti jesus haters of children who sit back and see 6 year old having oral sex but figure winning the election is better than addressing those issues.
Well the gloves are off and its time to take it to dem respect
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Well, I dont think anyone will really come on the forum and say big up the PNP..
. . .you'd be surprised .
Originally Posted By: jt
But I guess that is my point. The electorate have become smarter and I am sure they realise with all the crap they get from the PNP ah better the devil yu know..
Check the speech the opposition leader dropped the other day calling Portia, Hitler. Golding hasn't changed.
. . .how smarter could the electorate have become if they believe Golding called the Prime Minister Hitler? Golding in that speech tried to counter all these polls that show him vastly behind the Prime Minister in 'personal popularity' and he argued that charisma does not make one a good leader of a country citing Hitler as a very charismatic failed leader. Do you think the smart members of the electorate thought Golding was saying that if you gave Simpson Miller her own ‘mandate’ she would invade Barbados, kill a few million Jews and then commit suicide?
Originally Posted By: jt
Jamaica cant have that sort of person or people in power...
. . .what kind of people do we have in power now? Have you ever heard Omar Davies talking about the previous election period spending on unsustainable programmes and that they would deal with all the adverse consequences of wasting all this money after the election win was secured? Have you ever listened to Robert Pickersgill or Colin Campbell? Have you noticed that the attorney general is more interested in his role as legal adviser to the pnp than his duties to the country(check out the whole Trafigura affair to see an illustration of this phenomenon). The pnp candidate for one of the Kingston constituencies, a deacon no less, said that this government was responsible for the largest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich in the history of the country. These people are amazingly bold in what they’re willing to say publicly.
Originally Posted By: jt
Changing Governments to return dung in a di Garrison type politics... Naw.. Dat nuh mek it.
return would suggest that we left at one point.
Originally Posted By: jt
Talking about infrastructure or performance of any particular government makes no difference as both parties are not in power for the people.
. . .this doesn’t sound like an argument from a ‘smarter’ electorate. You're essentially saying it doesn't matter how bad the performance is since performance doesn't matter.
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As the son of die hard PNP supporters, I am happy to have been delivered from the shackles of a 'die hard' political mentality. Now I can step back, look at the issues and make informed choices, not on the basis that ... mi come from PNP family BUT on the basis of what makes sense. Now I can discern the propoganda and misinformation that flows from both sides of the politics. How in heaven's name can someone listen to a speach that says 'Hitler was a chrismatic person' and come to a conclusion that the speaker was calling Portia ... Hitler? Anyway Jt I won't think ill of you for saying it, because I myself may have said that sometime ago, because the environment from which I came would have branded that as 'the gospel' and all commrades would just run with it without bothering to check the veracity of the statement.
And by the way ... I have not become a labourite; we have established a thinking in this country that if one dare to think out side of the parameters of what one party thinks you have become a supporter of the other party. In my enlightened state I can better see the folly of both parties and even more the governing party, since they have had the people's mandate (including mine)for so long without the reciprocating results to show for it. I can now say, this set of action by the PNP was / is rubbish without feeling like I have betrayed my family's honor.
It has become critical that our decisions MUST become governed by a careful and proper analysis of the issues and not the unintelligent manner in which we have approached our political issues in the past. There are issues flowing from the flaws of our constitution and these must be addressed. I personally found embarrasing that a modern country still treats the issue of an election date as something to play games with. The fundamental frame work of our governance needs to be reformed. We have an emerging set of bright persons on both sides of the fence, we cannot continue to function in the archaic manner that rendered our past and present leaders functionally inept, although they seemingly have so much power. Accountability must take on its proper meaning. There must be consequences for bad leadership and management. Finally, we have to lift the standard.
As I reason out my new state of mind with my commrade, Granny, Mother and Siblings ... they stare at me with a look of disbelief ... and without them voicing it I can hear them saying ... a which labourite a Mo-Bay him a par with? In the end my mother graciously offered ... 'arite mi son, if a soh yu feel a soh yu feel BUT! be careful when yu go fi vote the people dem no sey ... this is the voice of Jacob but the hands of Esau.
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For an educated man and the leader of the opposition who is trying to attract support also, he could of said what he said in lots of other ways.
No one in the world would call Hitler Charasmatic. No one in the world would liken Idi Amin with such characteristics either.
He could of chose the likes of Clinton. Coz we all know he was not perfect. He could of said Blair. He could of chose Ronald Reagan.. A few Indian leaders and Africans would of fit the bill.
But when a man likens you to Hitler and Idi Amin.. It is blatantly obvious what conclusion would of been drawn and what his intentions were. Its no different when you guys posted mixed up writing but everyone still managed to read it bcoz that is how the mind is programmed.
Now Cryff.. You can paraphrase all you want.. You can do the pelepapa thing and edit the arguments to support your own. But maybe its you who think I am essentially saying performance does not matter.
I am not saying that at all. I am saying neither political party is in government for the people. Only bcoz of the people. Regardless of who is in power, performance will remain the same. But I do know that the JLP woud resort to more gutter and garrison type politics. I believe guns would of been barking long time if the JLP was running things.
Wi cant afford that type of politicks or people in power. And most definately we have some idiots and some thieves and some criminals in power in all sectors of the society and definately within the government and the political set up..
Thats why it nuh mek sense wi change governments just to get a bunch of other types of politricksters.
The electorate has smartened up and contrary to popular belief, the choice is not only PNP or JLP.. There is a choice of None of the Above.
I dont believe in the political system so I have to admit I dont give a........ But yu see when unuh ready fi change things I will be there. And that is what is needed. Keep the current party in government and then hold them to account. The people need to realise they have the power not the party. The PNP already has things set in the government. Changing to JLP would mean at least a year b4 they even get their offices in order.
Things in Jamaica will not change until the people make a stand and as you have already said. Hold the government to account. The more you ignore them the more they do as they please.. I pray Portia has a surprise for certain politicians after the election and will reshuffle the pack like Gordon Brown did in England. I dont feel she could of done that b4 an election for fear of infighting and backstabbers..
Just like you Senior, members of my family love Portia and we always have arguments as I think she nuh ready for this but mi worserer feel seh Golding nuh ready fi dis.. I think Portia will want to learn. Golding like all man will tink seh him done know already. I hope Portia takes the chance to prove me wrong. Golding already proved to me who he is...
Even for him to talk about carisma shows the whole show is about personality and Golding who hasn't got the charm of Portia sought to blacken her name by linking her to Idi Amin and Hitler. The usual dirty politicks from JLP. It nuh pretty nuh matter how unuh try justify.
I find it funny that Portia waited for the sevens fi clash.. heh heh..
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The fact is that the current PNP (including PJ)is living on legacy. The legacy of Norman and Michael Manley. The JLP is also hung by the legacy of Seaga's flirt with the CIA in the 1980's which cost JA over 1000 lives. So no matter how bad, inept, corrupt and heartless the PNP is, deep in the Jamaican psyche there is a great mistrust for the labor party. These set of circumstances cause the JLP to become more severe internally and externally and the JLP to become overconfident and take people for granted.
Politics all over the world is cynical and operates by the rules of the market in a capitalist system; the ends justify the means and votes are merely political capital to be spent. Government is a corporation who negotiates with the people on the behalf of big business.
Here in the US they say that the black vote is taken for granted by the democratic party because no matter what they vote democratic. Thus, the democrats neither address black issues before or after the vote.
Likewise in JA the PNP have taken the peoples vote for granted. They are more afraid of their own blantly apparent failures than the JLP's opposition. If we continue with the PNP despite the carnage, why shouldn't any other PNP government feel they need to do better. They have done their worst consistently and yet we vote for them...b/c the vast majority of JA are still wary of the JLP who many view through the lenses of the 80's.
JT, actually I've heard them use that exact word to describe Hitler 'Charismatic'. The fact that he did evil, doesn't nullify the fact that he was able to convince many that his madness was right, by using his charisma.
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Jt, can you do me one commrade favour? Before you trash the man and his comments, can you get a copy of the entire content of his speach, just maybe, you will come to realize how badly out of context you have taken most of what he has said. Caan seh mi no understand, because like how you caan stand Golding, I was cultured to hate the little syrian man. I couldn't get beyond the first word of anything he said, especially after an evening at the compound. Yes he did make some useful contributions to my reasons to hate him but in my recent state, I came to realize that it was possible for really excellent thoughts to come out of him.
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If exposed to truth long enough, one must face its contagious impact. - Senior Analyst
Jt, can you do me one commrade favour? Before you trash the man and his comments, can you get a copy of the entire content of his speach, just maybe, you will come to realize how badly out of context you have taken most of what he has said.
. . .who needs context? The man called the lady Hitler-that speaks for itself . It's the same rubbish as usual, why talk about the issues when we can talk about prophecies and Hitler and 777 and woman time now and traitor for leaving JlP to form NDM etc.
No one in the world would call Hitler Charasmatic. No one in the world would liken Idi Amin with such characteristics either.
He could of chose the likes of Clinton. Coz we all know he was not perfect. He could of said Blair. He could of chose Ronald Reagan.. A few Indian leaders and Africans would of fit the bill.
But when a man likens you to Hitler and Idi Amin.. It is blatantly obvious what conclusion would of been drawn and what his intentions were. Its no different when you guys posted mixed up writing but everyone still managed to read it bcoz that is how the mind is programmed.
…I googled Hitler since I had never heard about him before this controversy and the first sentence said: Hitler gained power during Germany's period of crisis following World War I, using propaganda and charismatic oratory, he appealed to the economic needs of the lower and middle classes, while sounding resonant chords of nationalism, antisemitism, and anti-communism
. . .so I guess there is someone in the world that would call Hitler charismatic. And if you watched the Last King of Scotland you would know that Idi Amin was extremely charismatic: “. . .but you did not persuade me Nicholas” (two thumbs up from cruyff14 ).
Originally Posted By: jt
Now Cryff.. You can paraphrase all you want.. You can do the pelepapa thing and edit the arguments to support your own. But maybe its you who think I am essentially saying performance does not matter.
I am not saying that at all. I am saying neither political party is in government for the people. Only bcoz of the people. Regardless of who is in power, performance will remain the same
I am not paraphrasing you I’m quoting you directly .
Talking about infrastructure or performance of any particular government makes no difference as both parties are not in power for the people
. . .performance makes no difference and performance will remain the same regardless of who’s in power.
Originally Posted By: jt
But I do know that the JLP woud resort to more gutter and garrison type politics. I believe guns would of been barking long time if the JLP was running things.
. . .how many murders were there in Jamaica last year?
Originally Posted By: jt
Wi cant afford that type of politicks or people in power. And most definately we have some idiots and some thieves and some criminals in power in all sectors of the society and definately within the government and the political set up..
Thats why it nuh mek sense wi change governments just to get a bunch of other types of politricksters.
The electorate has smartened up and contrary to popular belief, the choice is not only PNP or JLP.. There is a choice of None of the Above.
. . .a ‘smartened up’ electorate is saying performance makes no difference and they are all exactly the same so let’s stick with those in power now. Doesn’t sound very smart to me but I suppose it suits the Prime Minister well since that approach is saying it is a waste of time talking about the issues because they are irrelevant. If that is the approach of the majority of the smartened up electorate then this whole election is really a a waste of time.
Originally Posted By: jt
I dont believe in the political system so I have to admit I dont give a........ But yu see when unuh ready fi change things I will be there. And that is what is needed. Keep the current party in government and then hold them to account. The people need to realise they have the power not the party. The PNP already has things set in the government. Changing to JLP would mean at least a year b4 they even get their offices in order.
. . .change is needed so let’s continue with the governing party . Keep the current government and hold them to account-how exactly does that work? The power that the people have is limited to analyzing the performance of those they vote into office and deciding whether they are doing a satisfactory job so as to vote them in again or if not vote them out. The governing party would love to have voters with the thought process illustrated above. Why ever change? The governing party will always be ‘set in government’ so why ever take the chance of putting the opposition in office when they will take a while before they ‘get their office in order?’ And since performance really makes no difference then that’s a pretty sweet deal, you can do anything you feel like and since you’re the incumbent you should be voted back in. This smartened electorate really makes this process very simple .
JT, actually I've heard them use that exact word to describe Hitler 'Charismatic'. The fact that he did evil, doesn't nullify the fact that he was able to convince many that his madness was right, by using his charisma.
Seems like when it comes to politricks us Jamaicans can't see past our own nose. See we're busy talking about name calling and not the issues. We're not talking about the fifteen years of massive scandals, theifery and cronyism, public waste, mismanagement and corruption.
A prominent article in the gleaner displays a picture of a minister (Paulwell) who resigned due to involvement in the Trifugara scandal doing a dance before the party faithful less than a year later. Our tolerance for pain and aganoy is so great that we can bear the current onslaught against us, because we fear change and the unkown.
Both the JLP and the PNP have dirty hands. Portia vs Golding...both of them have been in their political party for over 25 years. The party and both people have reinvented themselves to get votes...allegations abound that both know war and can make war. But where do they measure up in terms of new ideas and policies? How do they measure up in terms of re-energizing the country?
I am not a die hard supporter of either party, but I am amazed that the PNP has done so poorly and people are unsure that we need a change. After 15 years, the PNP is a defacto oligarchy who've proven themselves to be the worst cleptocracy Jamaica has ever experienced. What more do they need to do??
C, should we even bother mention that Idi Amin might also be considered charismatic?
. . .But Amin filled a strange need in sub-Saharan Africa. A former heavyweight boxer, he was a charismatic figure. He stood 1.9 metres tall, weighed 93 kilograms, and ruled with a combination of naivete and peasant cunning. More a tribal chief than a president, he was a master showman who loved centre stage and knew how to use the international media.
To many Africans, he symbolised the revival of black nationalism, a sort of antihero who, no matter how misplaced his priorities or vicious his misdeeds, stood up to the whites and humiliated the Asians, always commanding attention if not respect. In Africa and other parts of the world, such as the Caribbean, he became a cult figure celebrated in song.
Many of his peers considered such behaviour courageous and anti-colonial. They quietly overlooked his atrocities.
Later Amin awarded himself the Victoria Cross and announced that he was adding to his list of titles - which included Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea - that of Conqueror of the British Empire.
Perhaps not surprisingly, it was Amin the buffoon, not Amin the butcher, who first caught the world's attention. He raced around Kampala in a red sports car, watched Tom and Jerry cartoons, plunged into swimming pools in full military uniform during diplomatic functions and boasted that he had fathered 35 children.
"In a medical sense, Amin wasn't responsible for much of what he did," Dr Solomon Asea, a physician and former Ugandan ambassador to the United States, once said. "He should have been a patient, not a president. I think it is safe to say that medically he was crazy. He could kill a person one minute and the next he'd be laughing and playing the guitar with no apparent recollection of what he'd done."
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