Originally posted by shaggybear: "Let's face it. Reggae needs to try and appeal to everyone. Hip-hop can appeal to many young people globally, whom have no connection to the American experiences, but not reggae. R&B, rock, but not reggae.
Music is music. It should not be confined. Why can't reggae artists get this?"
If you didn't waste your time typing so much I would think that you've got to be kidding. You are contradicting yourself. Your position seems to be one trying to confine reggae by setting limits for it. Reggae is what it is and where it comes from.
Aren't you the one here who is saying that it should stop being what it is presently and limit itself to the "confines" of something it is not (something not a reflection of Jamaican Culture).
So what's your point about R&B and Hip Hop being more popular. People everywhere hear it on the radio a lot more than Reggae. Of the people from overseas that I've taken with me to Jamaica most asked for copies of Dancehall music when they returned.
As was said above, exposure has a lot to do with it. Remember Jamaica is a small country. As small as our country is the music is everywhere. Just wait until couple yard man set up two pirate station in a Germany.
In any case, where is it stated that he goal of reggae music is to overtake Hip Hop and R&B in popularity.
I will say nontheless that Hip-Hop finds its origins in Jamaica -- talk about man like Cool Herc that came to this country and started mixing and scratching on the radio (you can see Kool Herc on the 1985? movie "beat street." YARD MAN. Ask all original hip hop DJ's from the old school like DJ RED ALERT where it comes from (The New York Massive should know him. He has written about its origins from Jamaicans like U-roy and man like Kool Herc.
So hold tight and see. Not into no changing for commercial purposes, it will come as it is. You talk about Hip-Hop influence on Dancehall, what about Dancehall influence on Hip Hop. What percentage of the top hip-hop songs have some reference to Jamaican Culture. Latest of which is that wicked song with Beenie Man and T.I. Listen to BIG lyrics see if you don't see it. Listen to Busta-Rhymes. Listen to Foxy Brown. Listen to Eve and little Kim. All top names in Hip Hop. Just rolling og the top of my head. All a have woman like Gwen Stefani, the new sweetheart of America and Beverly hills looking to do combination with what you must consider the epitome of D.J.s that have no hope for success. BOUNTY KILLLLAAAAA!!!!!!!
No Shaggybear. Let me repeat myself again.
Reggae should BREAK its confines to the Jamaican/Caribbean market and appeal to the whole world, i.e. wherever people exist in the world.
Tourists going to Jamaica will always buy Jamaican souviners, or something that they love about Jamaica (dancehall records). But is this novel. Or when they return, they want to purchase something that reminds them of Jamaica that they liked. Dancehall music is one of them, and it does not prove that exposure is lacking. What about the other tourists who have heard reggae here and when they return from JA, still don't buy the music in large numbers?
Reggae gets a lot of exposure here in NYC and London for example and still does not sell well.
You're right about the reggae influence on hip-hop. But I think more is going the other way nowadays, esp. with cable in Jamaica.
Reggae doesn't have to sell like the major art forms, but try and achieve enough to be able to let people hear the music and help out the local artists. That's not happening currently.
Do you people know that famous African-American group claims that rap started in 1958? You see, there are other stories of how rap music as started.
[This message has been edited by MikeU (edited 12-11-2001).]
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Thanks for all the Ites who posted on this subject it was areal lively discussion and I did not expect such a reaction when I raised the topic. The arguments seems to fall into two camps: those who want the artists to clean up their act and appeal to a worldwide audience and with the proper break and promotion, sell millions of records (like Bob and Shaggy); and those who think they should not sell out their "culture" and continue with the gun talk and pum pum lyrics in patwa, thereby selling 2,000 records and getting a "big up" from man pon the corner. I leave this topic with two quotes from The Gong: "Play I on the R&B, I want all my people to see" "Mi caan sing fi Jamaica alone"
[This message has been edited by ddread (edited 12-11-2001).]
What will you all think if Shaggy should say one day on stage "a Jesus Christ I'm singing for now, the days of singing songs about the girl next door is over." would you still support him DDread or write him off?"
Here is a true story told by a preacher while he was on a plane that was having some serious problems staying airborne. He said everyone on the plane was horrified, yet none was calling on the name of Bhudda, Mohammed, or an hindu God or what have you to save them. He got up in the middle of the fear stricken passengers and say to them, "call on your god to save you for the plane is going down; if you want Jesus to save you do as I tell you, I'm his servant." those people could not wait for the preacher to finish and give call to salvation. No one had any smart remarks, or say they don't believe in Jesus, or they don't want to hear it, or get out of my face with your religious stuff. Yes, the fire of world crisis and disater to come, will certainly sifts out all pretentions, and disguised fears about life after death, to bring each one of you to your appointed date with the Master the Lord Jesus. In that day of crisis Shaggy and all the other artist that you all admire will be missing from your minds, when you stand face to face with an eternal decision in the midst of a tumultuous earth.
Reggae should BREAK its confines to the Jamaican/Caribbean market and appeal to the whole world, i.e. wherever people exist in the world.
Did you miss the previous 84 posts where it was clearly stated that Dancehall IS everywhere? ...From Japan to Germany to America to UK to South America? Read again. The music is absolutely NOT confined. Are you eroding you position by your own previous statement that you and your friends were listening to it in your car? How does that support your position?
In effect, you refer to a "confine" which is nonexistent. The only CONFINE is the real one which you would put on the artists themselves.
Tourists going to Jamaica will always buy Jamaican souviners, or something that they love about Jamaica (dancehall records). But is this novel. Or when they return, they want to purchase something that reminds them of Jamaica that they liked. Dancehall music is one of them, and it does not prove that exposure is lacking. What about the other tourists who have heard reggae here and when they return from JA, still don't buy the music in large numbers?
Enough said. I refer you to the millions of white people that don't buy hip-hop and the millions of black people that don't buy Blink 182. Since when does everyone like all music. When you find a way to guarantee that you can make John Ashcroft like Busta Rhymes or Bounty Killer please call me so me and you can go to Columbia records together.
Reggae gets a lot of exposure here in NYC and London for example and still does not sell well.
Upon what do you base that statement. Just the other day I was walking down South Beach and buy two mix CD from a yout' walking down the beach. I am willing to wager that they were "Bootleg." If people want it you will see it sold. How much man you see a walk round a sell tape and CD because the big music companies don't want to invest in it. As long as people don't have no money there will always be bootleg. In any event, go to any record store in just about any corner of the world and they will have a reggae section with dancehall music. If it didn't sell, it wouldn't be there.
You're right about the reggae influence on hip-hop. But I think more is going the other way nowadays, esp. with cable in Jamaica.
Consider the relative positions of the parties 2.8 million Jamaicans versus the 150+ million people in the US listening to Rap. When you weigh that then reconsider the relative power of influence of the music.
Reggae doesn't have to sell like the major art forms, but try and achieve enough to be able to let people hear the music and help out the local artists. That's not happening currently.
I'm sure everyone appreciates your concern for Jamaica and reggae music. We are doing o.k. Do you think the same thing about other lesser countries like the Dominican Rebublic.
[This message has been edited by shaggybear (edited 12-11-2001).]
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
This as been a good debate about reggae. But serious disagreements exists about the direction reggae should take.
Technically, reggae is everywhere. But how many people are listening and more importantly, buying (bootleg records don't count)?
In closing, Shaggy, I will say that the number of rap fans who listen to reggae proportionately is small compared to Jamaicans in Jamaica who listen to rap. The Star newspaper in Jamaica had an edition about rap in Jamaica, and it says that rap is selling almost as well as reggae in JA. Almost every major party in JA are playing rap. Can't say every major party play reggae in the USA, or buy it in such numbers.
Ddread and JahB...unuh figet fi mention milli vanilli....heh heh... they never even sing one word and there's was a hit..
Yes Tman..good debate...I could tell yu never knew it would blow up like this...
Still yu left out the third group... The Topnotch group... Reggae is great but dont mean the artists should not have ambitions of bettering there professionalism... No different fro the reggaeboys plight too..
MikeU, I wish U would tell us why Freddie Mcgregor,Maxi Priest,John Holt,Peter Tosh,Jacob Miller,The Mighty Diamonds, The Cool Ruler,Ken Boooth,Lloyd Parks,In Crowd,Dennis Brown,Culture,Junior Tucker,Delroy Wilson and a host loads of other artists, though they sing near enuff english dont enjoy the success of Shaggy.
Even on the dancehall scene artists like Ghost and Wayne Wonder..Beres Hammond,Morgan Heritage,Marcia Griffiths,Glen Washington, etc etc... sing nearly full english... What is shaggy doing that they are not????????
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Just saw something on TV that is somewhat analagous. Don't forget about THE GREATEST. Remember them same public that deifies ALI now, used to boo him before and after every fight.
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
That’s the point JT. A man must express himself in his art the way he is most comfortable. Dancehall is deeply rooted in the Jamaican experience and its no surprise that patwa is the choice language of expression. Its not the language the music is delivered in that’s holding it back its the marketing of the music. Its quite clear and it as been pointed out that the artist who sing reggae in English aren't selling out the place either so that can't be the major problem. Now that you have the product how do you sell it to a wider audience? Americans have the numbers and the buying power and the world in general is fascinated with anything American. Not to mention that no other people in the world knows how to package and market things like Americans. So American artist don’t have to have a lot of talent to make it big. Do a one song and a Gap add and people will buy any crap you put out for years.
People nowadays don't only buy products they buy personalities and images. This is where we fall down. So don't be surprise that hiphop outsells dancehall. Marley made it big internationally but Marley was special. The man was a genius. Dancehall reggae now needs better marketing strategies and personalities that can sell the music. Until this happens we will forever be having this kind of discussion because we will always be on the fringe of things. Again if it’s your opinion that reggae is just primarily for Jamaica then that’s fine with me. If so, you then don’t have the right to complain that it doesn’t sell. If however you want to see the music conquer wider frontiers then everyone will have to broaden their horizon.
[This message has been edited by Topnotch (edited 12-11-2001).]
Jt, funny that you bring up Milli Vanilli. I was thinking the same thing but with a twist. To me Shaggy sounds like a Shabba Ranks "1 a B" with "looks" and "sex appeal". The music business done know for quite some time that sex appeal of the artists sells records. The same thing happening right now in POP with this "boy band" phenomena. All these rock N roll "boy bands" doing is singing "R&B" with a different packaging.
Anyway, to me Shaggy gets nuff respect, nuff props and nuff money. I just hope he bring some home and from what I hear he does.
Hear me now!!! lol Might be irrelevant but me a say it!!
Beenie Man reached #10 on the Uk national charts for one week.
An astonishing acheivemement based on the strength of his sales in London alone.
In fact for that week, it was the best selling song in London.
The same reasoning was behind Mr Vegas making the top ten with Heads High.
Now hitting the charts in the Uk, is a hard thing. It is compiled solely on record sales (unlike Billboard which takes airplay into account I believe correct me if I'm wrong). Also the record sales are at certain stores like HMV, Virgin, Our Price, Woolworths.
You will only find a decent reggae collection in the bigger stores of these chains and even then half of it will be taken up by compilation albums (like Reggae Hits #24, Now that's what I call Reggae #5 or I can't believe it's not reggae!! lol)
Therfore if Sizzla shifts 100,000 copies through small corner stores in Harlesden, Brixton, Moss Side and Hansworth etc.. He won't make the charts and will miss out on awards.
Shaggy and before him, Shabba and Buju, benefitted form being signed to major labels whose distribution networks and PR campaigns gave them the push to become household names.
Reggae took a bit of damage with Buju and Boom boom bye and Shabba with his "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" talk.
I remember Brian and Tony Gold w Red Dragon and Compliments Girl on your Kiss, making #2 and Chaka Demus and Pliers had a handful of top five hits.
Freddie McGregor (Big Ship, Just Don't wanna be lonely etc..), Maxi Priest (Close to You, Wild World, Caution and many other times), Half Pint (Greetings), Pluto Shervington(Your Honour), Brois Gardiner (#1 with I wanna wake up with you in 1986?) and a few other reggae artists all speaking clear english made the charts in the 80s and early 90s.
Murder She Wrote still can cork a dancehall full of Englishman!! Trust me I've seen it, it's not a pretty sight!! hehe!!
Nowadays the UK charts are the sole preserve of record companies who manipulate it in favout of the pop boy band or big breasted female teenage sensation.
Once upon a time, sings would enter at #10 and then climb to the top. Nowadays they enter at #1 and then fall. The companies release the pop songs over a month before to ensure maximum exposure and a rush to buy on release date.
The reggae artistes don't have that push so dem get knock!!
People who really know music (and believe me many don't), know about reggae and can appreciate it. Since music is a mission not a competition, who cares if you aren't a pop success.
The day you have to change your style. message or compromise your music just to sell more records is the day that your music loses it.
In the background at work, they play Capital Radio 95.8 and they sometimes when the spirit reach them, play Bob Marley tunes.
But they only play the famous non-threatening ones. Get Up STand Up, One Love, No Woman No Cry, Jammin etc..
Anything militant that step pon dem corn like War, Crazy Baldhead etc.. etc..ain't seeing no airplay until Bolton win the Champions League!!
Capleton lick out against the Queen of England and the Vatican so he ain't getting no big time air time is he?
Same with hip hop. They'll play the tunes with the nice beat you can dance to, or the ones with the funny lyrics but the ones that lick out against the politcians for not helping the ghetto youths might as well not be on the CD.
Shaggy is successful right now because he is not threatening. He don't look "coarse". Whenever he speaks in England he has an American accent not a Jamaican one and sings fun dance tunes like "It wasn't Me" or lovey dovey like "Angel".
That's his style, at times I will listen and sing along, and he knows how to play the crowd.
More power to him.
There is only so much times I can hear from Capelton that Selassie. Emmanuel and Marcus Garvey liveth every time and only so much time I can hear Sanchez (my favourite singer hence the screen name) say Lord have mercy but I still love their music for it.
The day reggae has to water itself down to cater for commercial success is the day it sign it's death warrant.
But its understandable with been bombarded with the glitz and glamour about being the biggest, best selling etc..
Shame really but it ain't got nothing to do with how much English is in it.
Murder She Wrote still can cork a dancehall full of Englishman!! Trust me I've seen it, it's not a pretty sight!! hehe!!
There is only so much times I can hear from Capelton that Selassie. Emmanuel and Marcus Garvey liveth every time and only so much time I can hear Sanchez (my favourite singer hence the screen name) say Lord have mercy but I still love their music for it.
B]
Watch it San-Chez hehheh
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One possible reason why things are not going according to plans is there never was a plan
Sanchez (my favourite singer hence the screen name) Awoah.
Give a Sanchez top three that you recommend if you can.
I ask because I'm not really a big fan and I know that many people hold him in high regard and I can't figure out why. I don't know his music well though.
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
No, not according to any charts, according to you. Like which of his songs do you prefer. Couple people said that liked him the best, but it never occurred to me to ask which of his songs they really liked. I might find I like the sound.
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
#60423 - 12/12/0107:22 PMRe: Shaggy wins top Billboard honours
AnonymousAnonymous
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More sense from Chez - where you been my good man!?! Thought you'd have been more involved in this thread before now.
Anyway, I'll say my bit... My music collection has more variety than most record shops! You name a style, and I'll have at least one album in that style. I play stuff according to my mood, and there are fabulous records from all genres.
I hate the fact that music is such big business (even though I contribute to it being by buying it), and hate the idea that a musician would change their style in order to increase sales. As a musician myself (piano & sax) I know that true satisfaction comes in sharing your soul through the music - you give of yourself. Any other reason for doing it is dishonest in my opinion.
I don't really care about record sales figures, I buy music that I've heard and liked. 95% of the stuff that comes through the charts is manufactured (painting by numbers) $hit! At the end of the day though, musical taste is subjective - the teenies seem to like it!
If you wanna make a lot of money from music, then fit the templet that the big record labels have already cut-out ...they'll even write some top 10 hits for you to sing along to! Anyone who has seen the TV shows: Pop Idols & Pop Stars, will know how it works. If you're ugly, forget it! Doesn't matter how much musical talent you've got, if you ain't got the right face, you're f****d!
If, on the other hand, you don't care about the money, then do your own thing and be happy in the knowledge that you aren't a fake.
Wha happen CHEz... U couldn't even say a wrong note and give somebody a chance fi counteract...how yu so mean....
Topnotch...The only thing wrong with your last post is that U never mek mikeU respond first... heh heh...
Shaggybear, here is a list of big Sanchez tunes.... Cant really make a top three.... De gal dem sugar was never beenie man....
1..Missing U. 2.. The man with the handle 3.. I cant wait 4.. give it a chance 5.. Pretty girl 6.. Praise Him 7.. Back at one 8.. Just when I thought I was over U.
and nuff more...
But Beres Hammond.... different class...
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They make the world so hard
