Folks, I was in a car with a group of American young men in their late teens/early 20's yesterday Saturday.
Dancehall was being played, and one of the men said that he wanted to hear some hip-hop. One of the other guys asked him: “Don't you like reggae?” The young man replied: “Yes. But I like it for partying or when I go to the clubs. Another one of the group said, also eager to hear hip-hop: “Do you guys want to hear this Jamaican s**t?”
Everyone eventually agreed and hip-hop was blaring and the men was head-bopping, and singing. But what I observed most, is that they could relate to the music (hip-hop); what the artists were saying, what was meant by what they were saying, and what should they (the artists) do differently to get their music to continue on its successful path.
I did not say a word. I let the young men speak, and I was thinking about the discussion in this thread on thereggaeboyz.com.
Thats proof in itself then mikeU.. Even if it was in English they wouldn't B able to relate, bcoz the reggae experience is different to the hip hop experience. And in Hip hop they talk about sex and guns and being hard much more than reggae... Slang words used in hip hop are totally different to those used in reggae.Just as everyone wants to go to the USA so they are attracted to the american accent also...The world will more accept the hip hop culture bcoz its american than they would reggae or soca until they visit the islands are are overwhelmed with reggae or soca.
_________________________
They make the world so hard
Well, for me, the key that you apparently overlooked in your little story is that they started out playing Jamaican music, meaning they actually went out and acquired it. So that really does not help you much.
_________________________
Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
Now Shaggybear thinks that its narrow minded and short sighted to expect a DJ who has made a name for himself in Jamaica and want to make an international impact, to learn how to express himself in an interview so that he can be understood by an international audience?
You tell me where you saw that stated anywhere in what I said and I will transfer a million dollars into the bank account of your choice.
What is within you comes from and is shaped by what is around you...those things in your culture. It can be safely said that an artists work is often an expression of what is within him or her. If someone grows up in an environment where they spoke patois (you may also factor in here the effects of poverty on one's inclination or ability to go to school and succeed)-- it should not be a surprise that their expression is in patois. Lady Saw talk some of the strongest patois and slackness, but having heard her in an interview, it is clear that she is well-schooled in English.
My point...the fact that you are well-schooled in English does not necessarily mean that it is your preferred means of expression or communication. As a result -- as I have said plural times previously -- the artists expression is in the form that reflects his culture.
If there is a problem understanding what is being said let me know and I'll help to the extent I can. Keep in mind you will also find that nowhere did I state that an artist could not CHOOSE to be commercial if he or she wished. What YOU were effectively saying is that if we want international success for dancehall then dancehall artists should be commercial even if the resulting expression is not a true reflection of their culture or what is within them. I say that is nonsense.
At that point you lose your roots because what you are doing is not connected to what is truly inside you. That will erode culture and then Dancehall will be no more dancehall as we know it, but just something tha you see everywhere else in LA.
I will help you out by pointing out (in case you have any further problems with your reading comprehension) that most here are aware that not all people who sing dancehall come from the ghetto or are otherwise underprivileged -- we can discuss that later if you wish.
Remember English is the primary vehicle that Jamaica communicates with the rest of the world. If you were hustling for food and didn’t get an ideal education you should be restricted for the rest of your life by that, even though you now role around in a Benz and food is in abundance? That’s what is called low expectations.
English may be the primary vehicle for official international communication, but it is NOT the primary vehicle for communication within the country....that would be patois. Wouldn't it be remarkable if all artists were to forego patois in their songwriting. How could they truly express their culture or their life as they experience it. How would they be able to express themselves in a way that their own people could appreciate. Who are they singing for? Buffy, or their own people. When they begin singing just for Buffy, will it still truly be Dancehall. Most of the conscious reggae singers right now sing in understandable english and they are not really overwhelming Goldman Sachs. If we all sing for Buffy and overlook our own people and culture, what happens to our culture. Does it remain strong or does it erode and turn into Beverly Hills (with everyone still hungry). If that is what you are advocating then you are ignorantly fighting for the demise of our culture.
You are on your own there. Strike that, you have that bastion of intelligence, MikeU, to hang out with.
Quote:
If you were to rule or govern a certain industry All inside this room right now would be a misery No one would get along...or sing a song Cause everyone'd be singing for the King...am I wrong!?!?!?
So it would be narrow minded if the football authorities hold some seminars for Jamaicans players improve their skills in projecting and expressing themselves so that when they go off to distance lands to make their living (as ambassadors of Jamaica), they can give a decent interview? Big successful artists and movie stars who had ideal upbringing do it so what’s wrong with an ambitious DJ doing so? Or maybe a DJ from the ghetto (an un-ideal upbringing) shouldn’t have any aspirations or ambitions beyond the corridors of Jamaica? In other words it would be prudent for a up coming DJ to go on the major US networks (as they are known to do) and speak patwa that the interviewer and the people in TV land can’t understand because he had a un-ideal upbringing? And that will catapult his career?
See Above and my million dollar offer. I support every man, woman and child in Jamaica (DJ's included) who wishes to master the English language, and I think we all need to.
Are you saying that you should always restrict yourself base on the environs/situation from which you came? Are you really defending the local artist are dissing them? Low expectations. I am hoping you are not saying what I think you are saying. Because if you are, the only thing narrow minded and short sighted is your own views on the issue. I have no problem with an artist considering himself a local singer or DJ and working only for a local audience. But if you are trying to make it big internationally you have to learn how to reach out to an international audience. If more of our DJ treated the industry as a profession and not a platform to show people how wicked they are, they and dancehall music would be a lot better off.
Hold your tongue. Be careful that your failure to comprehend does not cause you to put words into people's mouths. As I said above, I never said an artist could not choose to be commercial if he or she wished. You're free to do what you wish, and I wish you whatever success you may encounter. However I disagree with any statement that they should strive to lose the patois because then the music would no longer really be dancehall, and it would not be a reflection of our true culture.
Also, keep in mind that when you water it down it begins to lose it's distinctiveness and attractiveness because it becomes like everything else out there. So in the long run we would be the losers.
[This message has been edited by shaggybear (edited 12-10-2001).]
_________________________
Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
Incidentally, I can tell you that Dancehall is big in Japan. About ten years ago they had JAPANESE D.J.'s wearing the dress and a cut lines in them head and a grow dread. There are also dancehall reggar clubs there. Owned by Nigerians from what I understood. But the club is only there because it is what the people want.
In almost EVERY non-english speaking country in Europe I have visited them lick dancehall. I remember walking through Cologne Germany by myself and stepping into clubs where the Dancehall was a drop hard.
I transcends just understanding the lyrics. If it was all about lyrics, the beatles would only be popular in England and the U.S., I wouldn't have 4 C.D.s with German rap music and I couldn't go to Mangos on South Beach and hear them play that Spanish Dancehall (even if is the same 3 or 4 songs every rahtid night).
_________________________
Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
Things really slow pon di forum. Anyway, if Miss Cleo can see the economic importance of using Patwah, why can't some of the rest of you? Mike,Mike, you are my main man but you are so off on this one.
Annah luv, yavul, hanna vul etc Baddass, whey dem ting dey mean? heh,hehe Peace
I have serious difficulty understanding what baddas a talk bout when him does talk. All you see is 50 smiley faces and the Annah luv thing. Look like a mix of some arcane form of patois and Hindu. When the brethren slow down and stop use the smiley face dem and the patois him usually make a good deal of sense.
Is a good thing him not trying to market it internationally. heh heh
[This message has been edited by shaggybear (edited 12-10-2001).]
_________________________
Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
Originally posted by jt: Thats proof in itself then mikeU.. Even if it was in English they wouldn't B able to relate, bcoz the reggae experience is different to the hip hop experience. And in Hip hop they talk about sex and guns and being hard much more than reggae... Slang words used in hip hop are totally different to those used in reggae.Just as everyone wants to go to the USA so they are attracted to the american accent also...The world will more accept the hip hop culture bcoz its american than they would reggae or soca until they visit the islands are are overwhelmed with reggae or soca.
Yes JT. I knew someone would say what you said, and skirt around what the main point the young men were trying to say. A lot of slang in hip-hop are used in reggae nowadays. In fact this has been the case for a long time now.
Let's face it. Reggae needs to try and appeal to everyone. Hip-hop can appeal to many young people globally, whom have no connection to the American experiences, but not reggae. R&B, rock, but not reggae.
Music is music. It should not be confined. Why can't reggae artists get this?
Is it because the art forms mentioned above (R&B, etc.) are American, or is it because the music (R&B, etc.) touches something with someone say in Vietnam, irrespective of the music's origin? Why can't reggae appeal the same way (other than Bob Marley) to a Vietnamese, other than dancing to it? (if the beat is catchy, people will dance anyway).
I and a few others know some of the reasons. The difference is, we all here don't agree on them. Will this disagreement hurt the music?
[This message has been edited by MikeU (edited 12-10-2001).]
Originally posted by shaggybear: Incidentally, I can tell you that Dancehall is big in Japan. About ten years ago they had JAPANESE D.J.'s wearing the dress and a cut lines in them head and a grow dread. There are also dancehall reggar clubs there. Owned by Nigerians from what I understood. But the club is only there because it is what the people want.
In almost EVERY non-english speaking country in Europe I have visited them lick dancehall. I remember walking through Cologne Germany by myself and stepping into clubs where the Dancehall was a drop hard.
I transcends just understanding the lyrics. If it was all about lyrics, the beatles would only be popular in England and the U.S., I wouldn't have 4 C.D.s with German rap music and I couldn't go to Mangos on South Beach and hear them play that Spanish Dancehall (even if is the same 3 or 4 songs every rahtid night).
Yes Shaggybear, it's popular. But how popular? What about sales?
I'm certain hip-hop, rock, R&B for example are a LOT more popular.
"Let's face it. Reggae needs to try and appeal to everyone. Hip-hop can appeal to many young people globally, whom have no connection to the American experiences, but not reggae. R&B, rock, but not reggae.
Music is music. It should not be confined. Why can't reggae artists get this?"
If you didn't waste your time typing so much I would think that you've got to be kidding. You are contradicting yourself. Your position seems to be one trying to confine reggae by setting limits for it. Reggae is what it is and where it comes from.
Aren't you the one here who is saying that it should stop being what it is presently and limit itself to the "confines" of something it is not (something not a reflection of Jamaican Culture).
So what's your point about R&B and Hip Hop being more popular. People everywhere hear it on the radio a lot more than Reggae. Of the people from overseas that I've taken with me to Jamaica most asked for copies of Dancehall music when they returned.
As was said above, exposure has a lot to do with it. Remember Jamaica is a small country. As small as our country is the music is everywhere. Just wait until couple yard man set up two pirate station in a Germany.
In any case, where is it stated that he goal of reggae music is to overtake Hip Hop and R&B in popularity.
I will say nontheless that Hip-Hop finds its origins in Jamaica -- talk about man like Cool Herc that came to this country and started mixing and scratching on the radio (you can see Kool Herc on the 1985? movie "beat street." YARD MAN. Ask all original hip hop DJ's from the old school like DJ RED ALERT where it comes from (The New York Massive should know him. He has written about its origins from Jamaicans like U-roy and man like Kool Herc.
So hold tight and see. Not into no changing for commercial purposes, it will come as it is. You talk about Hip-Hop influence on Dancehall, what about Dancehall influence on Hip Hop. What percentage of the top hip-hop songs have some reference to Jamaican Culture. Latest of which is that wicked song with Beenie Man and T.I. Listen to BIG lyrics see if you don't see it. Listen to Busta-Rhymes. Listen to Foxy Brown. Listen to Eve and little Kim. All top names in Hip Hop. Just rolling og the top of my head. All a have woman like Gwen Stefani, the new sweetheart of America and Beverly hills looking to do combination with what you must consider the epitome of D.J.s that have no hope for success. BOUNTY KILLLLAAAAA!!!!!!!
_________________________
Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
the prosecution is saving his sandwich and instead having the defense's premise and arguments fi lunch Drinks! who a buy, the prosecution?
Shaggyb' : "As small as our country is the music is everywhere. Just wait until couple yard man set up two pirate station in a Germany."
hehheh, watch it though the Euro Union guy Monti or Mondi who buss up the merger GE was pushing and lining up fi Microsoft nex won't like dem talk bout pirate, but if it can be done a yardie will try
btw yuh notice how germany get weh with merger-mania buying up Yankee firms at premium prices too: -Deutsche Telecom & VoiceStream -Deutchse Bank & Bankers Trust -Mercedes Benz & Chrysler
but when US try a ting Monti ax it. Germany using greenbacks not tanks dis time. Remember last summer I said the Euro gonna crush di dollar, jus watch dis giant scheme unfold.
Anyway pardon mi, I see the prosecution rising to deliver another round of riddim, culture an ting.
[This message has been edited by Guidance (edited 12-10-2001).]
_________________________
One possible reason why things are not going according to plans is there never was a plan
Who am I to argue about Shaggy's tremendous success. I agree with all the points Topnotch made...and I'm pretty much on the same page with Shaggybear. All I can say is watch out for RAYVON.
The man really disappoint and surprise me. Not the fact that you ramble on bringing up old redundant arguments that were never in contention but the fact that you displayed an inability to follow a simple trend of argument. The man is really challenged unuh. Let me help you. Tman made a talk and I understood where he was coming from but strongly opposed the idea dancehall should be watered down to the Queens English and I expressed my opposition on that matter (yet you built your argument on this issue rambling on and on as if this was an issue in debate). I then said
while your lyrics is in patwa if your English isn't good take some classes so that you can give an intelligent interview in English for your international fans. Professional is the way to go
I said this because I have seen a few of them on US networks some of those interviews weren’t pretty. If you don’t speak intelligently people are going to think you are dumb and no one is going to know or care that the problem is that you are not fluent in English. Again I say if you are a local man exclusively, fine but if you want to make it big internationally you have to know that people not only buy music they buy personalities.
Enter Shaggybear. You said I even hear man talking about man must go to school to learn proper English. What a narrow minded short sighted view from a person who might just have more opportunity. SOME of those people singing come from backgrounds where they had to worry about many other things in addition to going to school...like finding food to eat.
To the best of my knowledge I was the only person that said anything close to going back to school to learn English. For you to make that statement one of three things must have been true 1) You didn’t read properly and understand why I said what I did 2) You read but didn’t understand (poor comprehension skills) 3) You read and understood but opposed my line of reasoning.
Being kind to you I assume it was the third. I therefore concluded in your opinion someone thinking that a man can better himself to reached out to potential fans internationally was narrow minded and short sighted. Now if that wouldn't make you narrow minded and short sighted I don't know what would. So I asked amongst other things if a man was hustling food instead of concentrating on school he should be forever inhibited by this. I never accused you of explicitly saying anything (keep the money for now). I just asked a series of questions because everything was implied by what you said. I now realize that it wasn’t the third scenario (above) but the second and I guess there lies our misunderstanding. As far the Mike U comment, cheap shot. I wonder if you know if you know what Yogi bear has over Shaggybear. Yogi is smarter that the average bear. One cheap shot deserves another. Now the money part. That million dollars you have to give away would exactly double the assets of the JFF (if you are talking Yankee dollars). As a so call supporter why don’t you donate the money to them? They might use it to build a good training facility. Anyway I literally have no more time to waste on this issue.
Shaggy gets nuff props, nuff respect and nuff money. A commercial sucess story; no doubt. For all the artists out there that seek to be commercially sucessful -tek in Shaggy.
I saw this youth live in concert. I went just because this likkle dawta I know wanted to flex. I was impressed with Shaggy. Shaggy speaks clearly to the crowd("a yankee crowd") and put on quite a show. I really did not feel any vibe or connected with Shaggy in any way, shape or form but I only had to look around at all the yankee teens that were singing along- word for word- to see that Shaggy was not trying to vibe or connect with me at all and he was quite effective at connecting with those he wanted to connect with.
Mr. Boombastic deserves his due.
With all that said, I am concerned about the art form because shaggy's model will be duplicated and may represent the future of reggae. For those of us who look to these artists as modern day "griots" we stand to lose a very important voice.
Quote:
Hey! Mr. Music why don't you wanna play Don't you know today is a bright holiday Some people waiting for the message that you bring They listen to every word that you sing. too much a dis mixUp mixUp -Marley
[This message has been edited by ddread (edited 12-11-2001).]
The reason why hip hop and reggae, which are very similar in many ways and have fed off of each other, are at different levels of the scale of worldwide influence is because of the level of cultural influence of their countries of origin.
American culture, sadly, is ahuge influence across the world nowadays and hip hop is riding that crest.
Jamaica, whilst it has influence and for a small country is well known, does not have that cultural influence.
If reggae were American and hip hop Jamaican, the roles IMO would be in reverse.
Originally posted by shaggybear: The focus of this topic was the claim that reggae artists who want to sell records internationally should record in proper english.
I'm with you. Just replying to a point that came later.
Hip hop artists don't record in proper English most of the time and that never stopped them.
I soon come man. 
