With respect to the senior members, I'm only bringing this issue back up since no one had objected to it been on a soccer forum. (just some protocol on my part).
A few years ago I made a statement on a particular Caribbean radio talk show, with regards to the frequent discussed issue of repatriation of all Africans abroard. I have said that although some has remarked that this is a ludicrous premise based on the impracticality of trying to relocate millions of people, in which many may not want to go if the opportunity arises, nevertheless the idea of an inborn inquisition to redifine and to relocate our roots is as strong as ever. The issue of "Ebonics and Patois" are really added measures to this fact that we are truly in search of our history and past feats as a people.
We are one of the few major races of people who came to these shores with our language and a great deal of our history negated. Was this intentional, as per Divine action from the one upstairs, or was it just accidental due to the circumstances of being in slavery? Let's see.
We all know that language and history instills a great sense of cultural identity, uniqueness and pride in any given race. That is why Solomomn in his writings said, "destroy not the old landmarks". Our landmarks of language and history was -not destroyed- but negated, temporarily though for the longest time. Well, the Children of Israel stayed in Egypt for 400 years, also for the longest time. The oral ramblings in this land from various voices on this very issue is a clear indication that we are near to an exciting discovery of our true history in it's undulterated form. Yes, it is by divine purpose and implimentation why we are in this predicament.
God is not a stranger to putting his people through certain unusual situations. Just think of "Job" from the Bible, of how God designated him for Satan's mauling. In the New Testament we see one, the Apostle Paul and the many trials and tribulations he hads to endure. At one point he prayed for God to remove from him this constant batterring that he was receiving in almost every city that he went. However, notice that in all of these instances, even in the ones that I have not mentioned here, that there was divine restitution on the behalf of those that were battered and abused. Should we black people in this day and age expect to receive divine restitution also, since we follow along a similar path of those who have gone before us that suffered and then was rewarded? yes, we should be expecting, but expecting what? Our language and history restored to us as in broad day light for all to see the evidence? or, is it that somehow in a remarkable fashion we will all have the oppotunity to go back to the promised land? or, is it that we will receive the money and land stolen, in essence from our foreparents and brought to bear in our time a great deal of our predicament? What if I say all of the above, but with an explanation? Would you all like me to elaborate further on this restitution issue on this soccer forum? let me know.
Yes Israel...welcome to the forum. I must say I like this topic you have raised very much and it allows much room for debate/ good constructive reasoning. I do hope all the 'ites on this forum will take part and make their contribution.
I tend to share a cetain amount of agreemnet in your line of reasoning. Though not an "A" student in the knowledge of the Bible,when you ask the question,"If our present predicament was by divine action or by slavery". I would say our present predicament is a consequence of both and I will tell you why I say this.
You remember in the days of old, at the very beginning of times the story about "Babel and the mighty tower", that the people were building towards heaven ?. Now, the incident that took place then, had a far reaching effect on men and his way of communicating today. It is my belief that by men's selfish motives and devious ways of thinking from back then the father had was to find away to disrrupt there thinking and their carnal motives, therefore he had was to confound/ confuse their language pattern and way of communciating so as to bring back some order thus creating a barrier.
Now, having created this barrier, people started to reason in more than one language understanding their pairs only if they were from the same ethnic background slash race and oh, by the way, I beleive this race thing came about by this very same reason, because God only made one race and that is the "Human race". I believe also that by design, God created all men equal and not just by physical make up;for example, I believe that God's intent was to have a common language amongst all men, just like how he created us all equal physically. However, because of stiff necked ness and ruthless and selfish behavior he found it necessary to separate us by way of our communication/ language because if it was not so done, men would have tried from even back then to over throw God himself if it was any at all possible. This just goes to show how evil,imperfect,cruel and wicked we all are.
Now, let's go to Africa and our very origin of existence upon this earth and let me show you how men further compound the situation. History dictates that our fore parents were enslaved from different regions of the African continent and thus brought to the western world. Example, the west coast of Africa, the nile, Guinea and we must also remember that they were from different tribes. We have the Mandingoes, Ashantis, the Corromantes and the list goes on and on. In Africa, in a radius of say a square mile you could probably find a hundred or more different dialects as you and I know, so when these poor frightened people were snatched away from their home land, in such a horrible way they had to come up with some common way of communciating so that they could understand each other. Their very existence was dependent up this.
It was because of the ingenuity of these people why we are alive today and why we have our language today called PATIOS. Patios is a part of our heritage and should be cherished, because it brought us out of the douldrums of slavery. I say this because it was the reason why Cudjoe could communicate with his people in commonality and also people like Nanny so that they could wage guerilla war fare on their British tormentors of those days eventually bringing about their liberty.
Now, having said all of that we have to be careful how we conduct ourselves. I say this to come back to the part about our predicament. You will realize that by now our Cacausian brothers are now trying to teach our children in patios and what they call ebonics. While it is good to have a unique way of communicating to each other, understandably only to us and our pairs we should know when to exercise cetain things or how to "flex" as we would commonly say. We should realize that their are some people of the other race, blonde hair blue eyes who tend to think that we are dumb simply because they cannot understand us. That's the way these people, think. If they cannot understand you, they think you are dumb period. Not because you do not speak the queens english that doesn't mean you are dumb;but they will not acknowledge that. Therefore, we simply have to know how to express ourselves when we are in a certain community.
If we are in the western world, the Cacausian community, then we most naturally have to conform to the order of the day if we intend to surviving. When you go to Rome, you do as the Romans do ! I am sure you will agree with me and so are others. There is nothing wrong with ones Origin and nativity. Our heritage is a rich one and should be cherished and encouraged. I beleive that in the final analysis, it all boils down to ones flexibility and willingness to adjust as the situation warrants. It is good to be able to reason with each other in commonality especially in certain situations without being able to be understood by the enemy. However, when it comes down to your very existence, it is wise to be able to adjust.
Again, let me say in closing. I like this topic very much, it's good reasoning. I like your points of view very much and I do hope we all will take part in this discussion. I love to see topics of such importance and magnitude. Love it my brother, let me hear the views of my fellow 'ites. Peace.
let me first respond to Pdart's exertion before I elaborate; I want you all to listen to what Pdart said here; he said this, an interesting comment at the ending of one of his a statements, "their very existense depended upon this". This is in reference to what he also said about how our foreparents were taken from different dialect groups and were lumped together for the trip overbroad. The gist of Pdart's thought is to show us how difficult a situation our people were in as far as communication was concerned. Along with that difficulty, was the horrifying reality of knowing they were separated from their homeland and family. Not knowing whether or nor they would be united again. furthermore (while I'm saying this I'm not in any anger with the Europeans, and I'll explain why shortly) they found themselves in a strange land, strange people, forced labor in extreme conditions... When they felt the cold whether for the first time they must have thought they were in cold weather hell- In my estimation, which most of you probably would agree, our ENslaved (not slave) foreparents were in a worse situation that the Children of Israel were in Egypt. unbelievable, but we should not have survived. Therefore, I, instead of seeing our enslaved foreparents as victims, I see them as resilient, staunch, rugged survivors of a slave system that was to have destroyed them, but in essence has produced with the generations to follow, including you and I a hard nose, gut wrenching, say neva die type of people! do I hear a Amen? Kno-Jah-mek-we!
When I heard the Greneral Brigadeer Jerry in 1982 (in his prime) at a dance in New Jersey with the sound Downbeat the ruler, exulted in one of his prolific delivery to the sheer uproar of the people, when he said, in his ever skillful and delightful style over the three blind mice rhythm for the very first time "long time in Jamaica we did a look it, but now we come a foreign we afi mek it; long time in Jamaica we did a look it but now we come a foreign we afi Mash it", it invoked in me a sense of history been revisited. As if through the inspiration given to the general that night, the Almighty was in essense saying to us today, "I know, O children of Jacob, that the way you were brought to these shores were of unprecedented magnitude. You were treated as if it was the end of the world, but it wasn't the end as it seemed. Therefore since you are all still here, the children of those that were mightily afflicted, I will cause to come upon you the blessings of your first foreparents -Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Whom I have told that in his seed -referring to you O children of Jacob, shall all the families of this earth will be blessed. Aren't you already seeing this come to pass in your music, how the whole world gravitates to your music? says the Almighty! Aren't you seeing this come to pass in the educational arena where many of you are turning to the scripture for spiritual and historical understanding, because you have lost confidence in this world's educational system? Don't you see, don't you see? You came here not to be destroyed, you came here to MASH it! The spiritual and historical insight that you do seek is the next step you will need toward the fulfillment that I have inspired Brigadeer to preach that night, of coming here to Mash IT!" Amen...
So are you saying that we should recognize patwa? To me that even sounds silly... of course we recognize patwa. Now we need someone to say "we recognize patwa officially".
I don't quite agree with your argument that "it is by divine purpose and implimentation why we are in this predicament."
Them seh the fada works in mysterious ways but I cyan not follow/accept it that Jah would put us through these tribulations. I know we need answers and justification but not all tribulations are devined by Jah. It sounds to me like man a buy into some propaganda that I and I cursed. Ham, I hear you mi lion but I think the other argument of "was it just accidental due to the circumstances of being in slavery" makes more sense to me right now.
I agree wholeheartedly that "language and history instills a great sense of cultural identity, uniqueness and pride " and that could/should be the basis of us coming together and move ourselves out of this bondage.
Most people you meet, including many here on this forum, are not open to the repatriation argument. It is a very important topic though. I remember as a youth my auntie (a Ras) told me about a incident down town Kingston(Parade). She said down town packed!!! people everywhere! line long from wharf all the way up King street. Pandemonium. people waiting to get onto ships that were supposed to be going to Africa. Somebody must have started rumors that the BLACK STAR LINERS were coming. Imagine that; just rumours of ships coming in to take us "home" was enough to draw thousands back then. If you mention it now you are ridiculed. Anyway, I hear you.
Pdart, youve also mentioned the tower of babel and it's disorder, in order to create order. let me first go back to that earlier thought about not being angry at the white race at all, and make a remark that will ties in with the tower of babel story.
We must realize what happened to us by them was much bigger than them and what they were doing in enslaving us. We must understand the workings of the one upstairs. Note that anything in the natural that is to become authenthic always go through a refining and redefining process, such as precious metals. The Almighty does this to his people whom he loves. The thing or person does not get to chose what kind, and degree of refining and redefining process they must endure.
It is time for us to have a different perspective on our past enslavement. Turn with me to a passage of scripture in the New Testament; Acts 17, verse 26: "and (God) had made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and had determine before the appointed times and the bounds of their habitation."
In looking at this scripture we get to understand the inner workings of the one upstairs. At the time when the Apostle Paul was inspired to write this, ALL nations of men were not dwelling on ALL the face of the earth. North and South America was not yet discovered at the time, by the future slave masters. The Almighty had "before determine the appointed time" that he would bring Blacks to these western shores. You say what Israel? The Almighty was the one that determined in the 1400's as the time when he would bring blacks to these shores; "But Israel, be for real; we were slaughtered and maimed where it was estimated that millions of us were killed just by the sheer condition on those ships, and you are telling us that God had something to do with that!"
In Job Chapter 1 and 2, Satan made a bet with God that Job his servant would curse him to his face if he (Satan) was allowed to strip him of his wealth and family. God said OK, try him and you will see what he's made of. In one setting Satan killed all his animals and all of Job's SONS and DAUGHTERS. "Yes, Israel I-an-I hear that, but that was one man Jah was-a-deel-wid. The Blacks was a whole race of people; check that." I sure will.
Enter Genesis chapter 15 verse 13 it states, "and he(God) said unto Abram know of a surety that they seed (the children of Israel) shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them (Egyptians) and they shall afflict them four hundred years." If God did not want the seed of his servant Abraham to be in that predicament in Egypt where they were afflicted for 400 years he would have prevented it. He had purposed that Abraham's seed went this route; the refining and redefining process of the one upstairs.
The last part of the verse in the Acts says, "he had before determined....the bounds of their habitation." Meaning, no nation on this planet is where they are by accident. The one upstairs determines where each race resides, or the the "boundary", without even asking us whether or not if where we are that's where we want to be. He's God you know! "Now explain to us Israel, fi-wa-reason-him-du -dis, in bringing us blacks here?"
I will answer this in part; If we did not come to these shores when we came in the 1400's, would there be for example a group of Islands in the Caribbean sea occupied by black as governors of these Islands? I'll answer it for you, Europeans would have been the occupiers and governors of these Islands. Simply because we would not have been able to come to these shores in such great numbers were it not that God had hired these shipping people to ship us over here. "Israel, sound like-ya big up slavery." Let me finish; I'll take it a step further; would there be a reggae music, a Bob Marley, a Dennis Brown, A conglomerate of cultural richness situated in the Isles of the caribbean if was not for the slave trade? I know this is a bold statement, and anyone accepting this assertion must realize also that in the root of it all regarding us coming here was not the Europeans fault; That this was Jah's intention. The Europeans were simply the instruments that Jah used to bring us here! I know, this is a hard pill to swallow -and some-na-go-tek-it-at-all. I have more evidence of this notion, enough scriptural evidence to 'floor' anyone who is in doubt upon reading it, but I cannot share these evidences here, sorry.
The operative word is, "Divine appointment", what is divine appointment? It is to be where you're suppose to be, and when you're to be there without you having anything to do with it, that is called divine appointment. Example, I know that you are all aware of the fact that during the mid to late 70's and 80's we came to North America in droves from Jamaica. This was us meeting divine appointment. Even thou we ran away from Jamaica seemingly for other reasons, such as politics, nevertheless we came anyway. The reason was, as Jamaicans we have a date with racism in this North America and the world. Bob was used to pave the way for us, our forerunner and that was the 'strange' reason why Bob's music was first accepted by whites before Blacks in this U.S. presently loving it. At the time "my white brothers" (I said it this way for a particular reason) needed to hear through Bob things like: "small axe chop dong big tree", "we a duppy conqueror", "who the cap fit wear it" "slave driver yo table a-go turn". Bob was in essence telling them what would be accomplished by the other generation to follow which is us. That is why it burns me when I look at one of our foremost vocalist namely Sanchez, and when you look at the title of most of his songs you see a son of Jacob who does not understand his destiny.
for over a couple of centuries it is said that racism was abolished, but it is still here among with other evils that is to be addressed. Since the constition has not cnvinced many of evil practices against others, God had ordered us Jamaicans to sing it to them. for what one cannot convince someone to listen to in words, by singing it they will somehow get it.
In the African American musical Arena, surely they have squandered their tool of deliverance (Music) from racism. They write and sing songs that did not have anything to do with their destiny, and it brought them further pain. Therefore, the one upstairs has ordered his angels to fill the ears of the American blacks with Bob's music so that they can get re-acquainted with the destiny of us all. Jamaicans we need to help them; and by the way, Jamaicans, we need to all pray for our "Psalmist" (singers and D'J's) for they are not yet singing the songs of Zion! Also we need to pray that Jah would bring back, in a refreshing and redefining manner the "dance", that were truly "dance" of the 70's and 80's. (Kno-tru-Jah B).
I know this all sound veeeery strange to many, but soon, very soon you will all get to know who I am and what I am here to do, thereby making it easier to accept the things that I say. Remember now, we are living in the "end of times", and the scripture said that there will be unusual and great signs from Zion. Right in the middle of all this quandry is the enigma, "black people". Just continue to listen.
In the Tower of Babel account there was a statement made in the last verse of the story; Genesis chapter 11, verse 9: "...the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth, and scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth." Ponder this: The Lord confound our languages by putting us on slave ships, and scattered us across the face of the North, central and south Americans continents. Where are we today? in every country on the face of these two continents, a fulfillment of Jacob's two prophecies!!
I will elaborate next on the original proposal..........
Ddread, the repatriation argument of yester-years and somewhat of today, is not really what I will be referring to. It will be something different. maybe I did not make myself clear in my writings, for I was not making a case for the old argument of repatriation Marcus Garvey style.
You said you do not buy into the idea of divine purpose and implementation that was responsible for us being here. I think I've answered that in my last post at 12:43AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ddread: Yes Ham,
So are you saying that we should recognize patwa? To me that even sounds silly... of course we recognize patwa. Now we need someone to say "we recognize patwa officially".
I don't quite agree with your argument that "it is by divine purpose and implimentation why we are in this predicament."
Them seh the fada works in mysterious ways but I cyan not follow/accept it that Jah would put us through these tribulations. I know we need answers and justification but not all tribulations are devined by Jah. It sounds to me like man a buy into some propaganda that I and I cursed. Ham, I hear you mi lion but I think the other argument of "was it just accidental due to the circumstances of being in slavery" makes more sense to me right now.
I agree wholeheartedly that "language and history instills a great sense of cultural identity, uniqueness and pride " and that could/should be the basis of us coming together and move ourselves out of this bondage.
Most people you meet, including many here on this forum, are not open to the repatriation argument. It is a very important topic though. I remember as a youth my auntie (a Ras) told me about a incident down town Kingston(Parade). She said down town packed!!! people everywhere! line long from wharf all the way up King street. Pandemonium. people waiting to get onto ships that were supposed to be going to Africa. Somebody must have started rumors that the BLACK STAR LINERS were coming. Imagine that; just rumours of ships coming in to take us "home" was enough to draw thousands back then. If you mention it now you are ridiculed. Anyway, I hear you.
Noah had three sons Ham, Shem and Japheth And in Ham is known to be the prophet. -Marley
Big up to the preachaMan named Ham. Nuff respect fi di revolutionary theology but I am not aware of this "group of Islands in the Caribbean sea occupied by black as governors of these Islands". From the last account the islands were still controlled by the heirs of those that brought our foreparents here. From recent history it is clear that the so called black governors are mere lackeys of the heirs of those that brought foreparents here. That's why we have situations for example of Jamicans killing Jamaicans over cold war politics.
I was talking to a roots "bredrin" the other day. The conversation got very deep; then the roots looked at me and said "DDread, Jamaica wrong."
"Huh", I was perplexed for a while and you can imagine the expression on my face.
"Jamaica wrong!", he continued, "If Jamaica did right it would have had a tickey pon the flag."
I and I will make it right! Big Up to the countless man them out there who are committed to changing the yellow wrong bang into a tickey.
If Jah didn't love I If Jah didn't love I Would I be around today?
[This message has been edited by ddread (edited 03-08-2001).]
Dear Hamilton, I am not a student of the Bible, but I am a student of history. I believe that it would be a travesty of justice to even consider slavery as a Divine intervention, and I will briefly state why here.
There may not be a group of islands called the West Indies, or an Island as unique and gifted as Jamaica, or Trinidad, or Barbados, or St. Vincent etc. But what of the African continent?
What do you believe would happen to Jamaica if I came there with armies and stole your strongest and brightest young people, as they did in various parts of Africa?
What if I stole your natural resources for my own profit, never developing your beloved land?
Will there be much of a future for Jamaica? I think not.
Will she develop reggae, the reggaeboyz, or dance hall?
Will Jamaican athletes be known for their great prowess in international sporting arenas?
I beleive that you will have a VERY difficult time recovering....trying to replace several generations! ( Noting that the strongest were STOLEN, never to return)
That is why Africa has not prospered as it should have...her greatest resource was STOLEN! Not guided overseas by Divine intervention!
I hope you see my arguement. If it was God's divine plan to use Europeans to fulfill his will for blackmen to succeed and prosper, why not in Africa?
And why are we still suffering....He took 400 years for Israel....why so long for Black people?
No sir, and I say this with much respect to your ideas,....God had no hand in the EVIL and insidious slave trade....unless of course repatriation is God's goal?
Your comments please.
[This message has been edited by truetrini (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
Nuff respect truetrini; I'll have to respond to your assertion here, for it seems, as I have suspected that most of you are not buying into the idea that we came to these shores by divine appointment. Therefore, further argument is needed and I will do that shortly after I get back from a meeting I must attend from 8 to 11pm. Once again my elaboration of the first proposal has to be pushed back so that I can get through to you on this divine appointment issue. That at the very least you'll all have adequate info. enough to start to question your doubts about the validity of this issue.
No, I'm not deliberately trying to stall on the elaboration, but I beleive it is necessary that I adequately answer one question before I get into explaining and presenting something new that surely will generate more questions and objections. So, bear with me a little here.
Let me also say this, for the most part I've been making referrences to Jamaica, but this is not to the exclusion or dissing of the other Caribbean Islands. I'm simply trying to point out the destiny of Jamaicans. Even people of the other Caribbean islands had remarked in Miami herald a little while back that Jamaicans are different and admired. (this is a not a means for us to puff up our chest, because it is divine destiny that purpose it this way as oppose to any ingenuity on any Jamaican's part). Therefore, my premise is to try and explain the reasons for Jamaica's achievements and for what purpose, and also the reasons why Blacks in general are here and for what purpose on this side of Africa.
LATER, BRETHRENS...
Quote:
Originally posted by truetrini: Dear Hamilton, I am not a student of the Bible, but I am a student of history. I believe that it would be a travesty of justice to even consider slavery as a Divine intervention, and I will briefly state why here.
There may not be a group of islands called the West Indies, or an Island as unique and gifted as Jamaica, or Trinidad, or Barbados, or St. Vincent etc. But what of the African continent?
What do you believe would happen to Jamaica if I came there with armies and stole your strongest and brightest young people, as they did in various parts of Africa?
What if I stole your natural resources for my own profit, never developing your beloved land?
Will there be much of a future for Jamaica? I think not.
Will she develop reggae, the reggaeboyz, or dance hall?
Will Jamaican athletes be known for their great prowess in international sporting arenas?
I beleive that you will have a VERY difficult time recovering....trying to replace several generations! ( Noting that the strongest were STOLEN, never to return)
That is why Africa has not prospered as it should have...her greatest resource was STOLEN! Not guided overseas by Divine intervention!
I hope you see my arguement. If it was God's divine plan to use Europeans to fulfill his will for blackmen to succeed and prosper, why not in Africa?
And why are we still suffering....He took 400 years for Israel....why so long for Black people?
No sir, and I say this with much respect to your ideas,....God had no hand in the EVIL and insidious slave trade....unless of course repatriation is God's goal?
Your comments please.
[This message has been edited by truetrini (edited 03-08-2001).]
I typically don't go down the religious road with people because it provides too convenient a mechanism for "substantiation" of an argument by to ascription to God or his will. Very simple "explanation." I always keep in mind that because people are essentially driven by the same motivations of survival, "success", and reproduction, there are always recurring themes in history. Therefore, because the bible is, in part, a historical record, people can always use it to point to whatever period of time suits them to prove the bible's prophetic content.
While I am spiritual I have never been wholly religious, because I realize that most religions -- including that which views Ras Tafari as something more than just a dictator (no offense intended) -- will come up with their different approaches to the worship of whomever the believe in. Who is right is only the opinion of man. So I leave that alone.
However I trust noone will be offended by that here since this IS a football forum and we are off subject (nothing unusual here)
I thought DDread's ability to isolate the Ham...Hamilton connection was remarkable.
That said, I must say I liked Hamilton's version fo things because it is a very positive message. I believe that we are where we are and we must act based upon that. That is in line with HI's view because it too accepts where we are as the will of God. O.k. with me.
I still think we will never get the respect we deserve as black people until Africa is free. We fight against man like Khadafi (or however we spell his name this week), but he is the man that is fighting for an African Union much like that of the U.S. or the E.U.
Go to the root of the problem to solve it, our root is Africa.
Trini: I think it is hard to say that all the brilliant minds were taken out of Africa. Were the Europeans that lucky, were we that unlucky. If this were so, that sounds like a veritable miracle...and act of God. I guess support for HI's argument.
I think all that happened was a result of man working to try to get ahead. Him first (his family), then his tribe, country. This is a recurring theme that has happened before and his still happening around the world. Anywhere you see slavery (white or black you see there is at its root a man trying to get free labor to get rich for himself first (family), him tribe, him country, etc. (in descending order of his support base).
God's will? I don't know. Maybe. It does fit easily into HI's view though, right. No solid proof really available or even needed.
But what is heavenly is trying to be that perfect being we all think we can be, especially in the face of adversity. Maybe that's why we have begun to achieve more here in the west.
Maybe that's why jewish people have done so well, they've been tormented probably longer than we have (though this is offset a lot more in the world we live in today because of the power they possess in America) but they have done in the arts and in the areas they were allowed to excel. Unfortunately for us, over the last 500 years we did not have the same opportunities for education that they did.
This is changing, but very slowly.
I don't know personally know many European-Americans who could hold a candle to some of the arguments I hear from some of the people on this forum.
God's will...? I don't know, maybe. But what I do know it is all our wills to succeed and to take care of ourselves, our families, our tribes, countries...etc...in that order. To the extent that we strive to be that perfect person we want to be I guess it is God's will.
P.S. The patois thing...Should not be made an official language. What is the point. If as has been suggested it is an independent language which filled to some extent a historical role of secreting our conversations then making it official is counter to that.
It is a dialect which is based upon English. It is a reflection of us working to some extent to learn English. We call it our own yet it is based on a European language. I don't see the purpose in making official -- for the sense of Afrocentric pride -- a dialect based on the English language, particularly when it is not even as developed as something like the Haitian Creole.
Unless you plan on operating outside of our english speaking society (and I know many here are computer people, teachers, lawyers, accountants) it is not practical to receive an education in Patois. It is better to properly educate in the language that is predominant where you live. The patois will never die (it will always be there for us to communicate or to talk about how that man right in front of you had the gall to wear those ugly shoes in public.)
It will always be unique to Jamaicans and will be something that even Europeans find interesting and try to copy when they meet a Jamaican. Don't worry about it. It is fine in the special place where it is, our hearts minds and culture.
[This message has been edited by shaggybear (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
Shaggybear, I want you to understand....not all the educated/brightest were taken...just the young and strong, as they were most capable of the HARD labour.
That said, I want to emphasize that the youth are always the future....won't you say that the future was stolen from Africa, along with all the wealth!
With that said, I want to reaffirm my belief that the YOUTH are any country's greatest resource.
It is also worth noting that colonial rule worked to keep native peoples in a state of stupor, (everyone knows that knowledge is power). The few that were given the opportunity to learn did so in many cases under the penalty of death in the West Indies, and in Africa, if it were not for Islam...where would they be now.
Christianity never played an important part in the lives of Africans, indeed it was there when the Portuguese made their first incursions into Africa to trade in human cargo. The African could NEVER understand how a religion which preached true brotherhood, could then sanction slavery and torture.
Although the Arabs took slaves, if you as a slave, converted to Islam, you were then regarded and treated as a brother and an equal.
Profit was foremost in the minds of our Christian brothers when they colonized and enslaved an entire continent.
As for the language....I agree with you 100% Ant patois or dialects we have now is based loosely on English, with few words of original african dialect.
The slaves had to speak in their master's language as a precaution to avoid possible uprisings...afterall, you would force your captives to speak in a manner so you....the captor can understand. This was enforced in the most brutal manner.
Every person has to learn his language. A human baby raised by apes would learn only the language of apes and other animals. To learn a human language, a baby would have to hear it from humans. But much animal talk is not learned. On the contrary, its inborn. A cat will purr and meow even if it never hears another cat.
What the hell does all my ramblings mean?
Simple really....our patois and ebonics are legitimate languages learned and taught through common experiences....and is a very effective means to communicate with those of similar heritage. That does not mean it is a desire to seek out African roots....but merely the roots of our origin...i.e. Jamaica, Trinidad or where ever. It is also very convient and most of all familiar.
When we write however, do we not modify of "language" to effectively communicate with all?
Peace!
Anyway today is my birthday and my sweet wife is taking me out to dinner. [This message has been edited by truetrini (edited 03-08-2001).]
[This message has been edited by truetrini (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
Wicked arguments.( even though you dissed the man wid the angle).
I personally try not to rely on the scriptures to defend my opinion/perspective. I know that the Bible as we know it was a project commisioned by Constantine and then translated by Chief James froma small province in Europe. Yes Constantine's conference collected books that were already written but the issue is not only about the ones that were collected it is also about the ones that were not included. What was the contribution of the Romans that gave them a Book in the bible other than Constantine's influence?
Anyway, Shaggy, there is nothing magical about patwa. My only take on it is that most of our people speak it and it should not be stigmatised. We reflexively use English as a measure of inteligence and it is not. My granny might not have read Hegel, Hume, Plato or Socrates but she had more philosophy than all of them combined. There is so much richness in the way she spoke. She told Anansi stories that would make Shakespare look soft if she wrote them down.
Registered: 08/11/00
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Truetrini, God bless you and yu birthday. My BOB Marley to you is "Yes, mi friend sey mi dey a street again...." I hope you off house duty? Cho nuh watch nuh face do yu ting! Big up and read di post wid di local intelligencias.
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Give me half a chance and I'll make it one
Truetrini, before I respond to you let me first say this to all the ites. This discussion really is not about religion, rather it is a look at Biblical history as it relates to us Black people. No other group would attempt this for us. We really have to stop seeing the Bible has a suspect book, and realize that the greatest of men, name them: Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, King Solomon, Elijah the prophet, the Apostle Peter and Paul along with the corner stone The Lord Jesus Christ, Selassie, Marcus Garvey etc, were well versed in the old testament. When one reads through the Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiates, the Law of Moses did they used these to enslave us? I think not. Why are we so concern about other books that was supposedly omitted from scriptures, when we have books of the Bible that I have just mentioned where we hardly read or study or understand them. Let me authoritatively say, a-fi-we-history-book-dat, we just don't know it yet. It is wise that we make informed objections about Bible as by one's own personal inquiry, as oppose to someone else's, who may have an ulterior motive to dis the Bible.
It is one thing to say that we are Israelites and we are, but it is a painful thing on the other hand to have to associate with the truth that back in the days we would not keep the Laws of the Almighty and he severly judged us for it. That up to now we are still feeling the reveberations of his judgement on us.
Truetrini, you have asked, "why are we still suffering, why so long for Black people?" Let us revisit history for a moment.
Enter Deuteronomy chapter 28. Have any of you read this chapter? Do you know that this was you the Lord was talking to? This the MANIFESTO of the Children of Israel, you and I!!!
Don't be too concerned about the blessing part for only few of us walk in that. Let us look at the verses where God talks about the curses he would placed on us if we did not keep his commandments. (Out of the 68 verses in that one chapter only 15 were for blessings, the rest -53 verses, were for curses). Black people have always made this remark, "bwoy, it's like we under a curse." IT'S TRUE!!!
I'm going to alert you some of the verses in this chapter to see if they speak to our situation today; V.29: "thou shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness. thou shall NOT PROSPER in thy ways; thou shall be ONLY OPPRESSED and spoiled (vexed) evermore and no man shall save you." Don't you see how hard it is for us on a whole to get ahead economically? aren't we on a whole still oppressed?
V.32: "your sons and your daughters shall be GIVEN UNTO ANOTHER PEOPLE, and your eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in your hand." Is this a case for slavery? you're sure right; there is more of it.
V.33: "the fruit of your land, and all your labors, shall a nation which you know not eat up. and thou shall be only oppresses and crushed alway." Don't we from the Caribbean relate very well to this, more so africa. The "fruit of the land" there is not just relating to the actual fruit from a tree, but whatever the land produces is called fruit. That includes all kinds of minerals and precious stone that we all know was taken from Africa and enriched the European nations.
(Before I go on, I want to say to all my rastafarian Brethrens and sisthrens greetings, and much Love to the I dem from I&I Israel. We soon link up cause WE have a work to do for the Lord Jesus Christ, that you know not of. It includes a divine appointment with disney world and disney land -again these are the last days, signs and wonders in-a-di-earth. Yes I know I have uno wondering what I am talking about. Just stay tuned).
Talk about Africa our home land; verses 21,23,24: "The lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land where thou go to possess it. And the heaven (sky) that is over your head shall be brass, and the earth that is under you iron. The Lord shall make the rain of the land powder and dust; from heaven shall it come down on thee, until thou be destroyed." Is this Africa or not?
Look at this one here how fulfilling this is. verse 43; "the stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high and thou shall come down very low." Isn't this true of us in the Caribbean, and much more so in Africa? that the big people them are mainly those who are not of us.
verse 48; Therefore shall you serve your enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger and in thirst, and in nakedness and in want of all things; and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed you." Enough said; just read verses 49-53, and you will further see.
Did I answer your question Trutrini why we suffer? and why so Long? This is not what you were expecting to see. Why so long? we suffer as long as we refuse to hearken to the voice of our father God. How will we hear his voice when many of us, the Children of Israel, spend little or no time to learn what our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, gave their lives for. We have foolishly allowed religion, because of it's obvious corruption to determine for us whether or not to accept the Bible as God's word, without first doing our own personal examination for proofing.
In essense, many look at religion and it's divisiveness and say, a-madness-dat. The Bible, dat-a-suspect, cause a-it-dem-use-fi-trick-I. As Mutabaruka said in one of his songs, the oppressors gave us Bibles, and while we are reading, dem tek we Land. No Muta, you're misinformed, they took our land because we did not hearken to the voice of the Lord; and he gave our land and everything else to strangers. (you can come in on this Muta and even Professor I'lege, if you are listening; If ya-come-in, a strictly Bible I&I a-deal-wid)
But bethren, When you read through the old testament, a-trick-dat? ya-joke, a-yo-history-dat. The real trick, is the doubt and confusion circulating all about the Bible to cause us to become dis-interested in paying attention to it, and many Israelites has become dis-interested.
To all the ras; first night at meeting, an older man at the meeting made a statement of how he had spent a great deal of time, over the years in the company of many Ras. He said they were responsible to a great extent for bringing down to earth those in the Jamaican higher society who thought they were something special. He said the ras would say to any one of these subjects in the Jamaican Patwa, the militant aspect of patwa and say: "whey-ya-deal-wid, ya-gwaan-like-sey-yu ca-mash-ants, yu-check-sey-since-yu-have-big education-dat-yu-bigger-than-I-man, fi-yu education-tun-yu-in-a-fool, dat-yu-a-look-dong-pon-annada-man, and Jah-sey if a man check sey him a something, him really a-kno-notten.
Elaboration next, unless uno have more of dem question dey.
