Registered: 07/28/00
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Loc: Brampton, ON Canada
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some of you sound like unno buy into the Seaga propoganda. The media state that similar checks took place in other communities PNP and JLP before Saturday!! Nuff a unno no read that?
The man dem in a Tivoli no have no right to any guns. They are wrong, totally wrong!!
A wey unno a talk bout man? Unno dun know say Seaga further hi cause through gunmen and political war and intimidation.
Regarding Mr. Adams, de man see dat seh de gunman dem nowadays are well armed and dangerous. drastic measures must be taken. Breaton killings did not include any innocent, learn dat.
De bad men dem decide seh dem a go mash up de country. lef de police dem alone mek dem do dem job.
some a unno no offer no solution but unno a criticize. unno shut unno mout if unno no have nothin to suggest.
INDI MCLYMONT, Observer staff reporter Friday, July 13, 2001
HOLUNG ... you can't hold a whole community under bullets CATHOLIC priest, Father Richard HoLung has added his voice to the call for the removal of Senior Superintendent Reneto Adams, head of the controversial Crime Management Unit, which headed the weekend operation in West Kingston.
FORBES ... head of the police force But HoLung also wanted Commissioner of Police Francis Forbes and Minister of National Security and Justice, K D Knight removed because of the high level of crime in the country.
KNIGHT ... the minister of national security "I have nothing personal against them. I am not supporting the Jamaica Labour Party's (JLP) call. I have no political agenda but Adams, Forbes and Knight have to go," HoLung told the Observer yesterday.
ADAMS ... headed Tivoli operation HoLung was referring to the call by JLP leader Edward Seaga, on Tuesday that Adams be removed from front-line duties after he spearheaded the weekend operations in West Kingston, in which at least 27 people died and about 40 were injured. Two of those who died were members of the security forces.
"I am not PNP or JLP but I speak for the good of the nation and whichever party is wrong, I will say it is wrong," he said.
"I am worried about the way the police conducted affairs in West Kingston and Braeton. It comes down to a brutal and barbaric way of approaching justice which is not acceptable," said the Catholic priest.
Seven men were killed in a house in Braeton, St Catherine in March after they allegedly opened fire on a police party which the police said had gone to execute an arrest warrant. The operation was also led by Superintendent Adams.
HoLung, however, criticised the way both the Tivoli and Braeton operations had been carried out, claiming that both were barbaric.
He argued that the approach had backfired and had instilled an attitude of hatred and fear in the residents.
"It is almost like a call and response between the police and the people. Just the way in which the police try to overpower the people with arms is the same way they react to the police. The policeman killed and burnt on Mountain view Avenue is an equally barbaric act," he said.
But he said it was a reflection of the way the police treated the residents and also a subsequent sign of the hatred the people had for the police.
HoLung stressed, however, that he was not defending lawlessness but emphasised that the use of more high-powered guns to quell situations was wrong.
"Go after the criminals yes, but you can't hold a whole community under bullets," he said, in reference to the weekend operation in Tivoli Gardens.
"People are not rats in a barrel and the police should not treat them like that," he said.
He called for the security forces to be more humane when doing their jobs, adding that while he suspects that there were criminals in the Braeton incident and in West Kingston over the weekend, the police's approach to attack all was not the way to go.
"I am speaking on behalf of the poor and while they are not all innocent, you should not take an execution-style approach to them. You have to let them face the justice system, not kill them on the spot. You don't do justice that way," said HoLung.
The man dem into party politics suggesting that TG should be allowed to keep their guns since Jungle have guns and whatsit notsit. Those guns that today fight to elect Seaga or keep PJ in office will tomorrow support drug trade, theft and murder. All of you will be there saying that those bastard in kingston's ghettos should be killed. Those same bastards that are today Siggi's "supporter" those same bastards that are today Davies' "supporters". Adams is right Jamaica will pay dearly for this.
Adams need backup!!! him fi just keep marching like shaka zulu or patton and afta TG, him fi flex through Jungle and Rema and carry the green and black wid the yellow wrong bang but I say that they should concentrate on extracting the guns and not the ghetto youths. Adams might not be the right man for the job still, Adams flex like he gets off on "bussing shots". We need someone to remove the guns not "remove" the youths.
I nuh check fi babylon but I think a key element of making jamaica the country that it needs to be are those that enforce the law. What good are laws if no one follows them and no one enforces them? I dream of a day when I a flex through parade and siren blow I down. When I stop fi see what the officer a deal wid... him pull off him helmet and is a knotty a tell I seh, "Ddread, it nuh safe fi drive so fast on yah mi idren; nuff youth go to school around the corner. Jus' Kool... This is jus' a warning still". I say, "Jah Love" and the dread say, "One Love" and Jamaica Krisss.
Throw whe yuh guns throw whe yuh knife let us all unite everybody living in fear just through this balistic affair. -Leroy Smart
[This message has been edited by ddread (edited 07-14-2001).]
You say that no innocent people were killed at Braeton.....how do u Know dat????
When the "police" killed the youths,(more like executed),they didnt even know four of their names!!!!This conclusively proves that they didnt care who was guilty, from who was innocent. They simply came to kill, and that they did....NOW Is only GOD alone knows who were the guilty youths...BUT ONE THING IS CERTAIN TO THE WORLD.....the "police" who killed them are guilty of seven horrific murders..
Did they care about who was guilty when they killed the 21 year old christian security guard who was going to work last saturday??? Or the madman who was running for cover..or the 20 year old girl trying to recover the body of her loved one???? Or those innocent bystanders who were killed by the indiscriminate shooting of the "police"???? I honestly dont believe so...They again came to kill, and kill they did.
Now what makes the "police" different from gunman?????
what makes "police" right in taking an innocent life and gunman wrong????Isnt it the same crime..MURDER???
How can u use a dirty cloth to clean a dirty cup????
Mek panjam gwaan chat. Anytime him an the wrong policeman buck at the wrong time and place, he may well wish that the police force is held accountable for their crimes against civilians.
My friend, I was going home from work (inna mi shirt and tie and look respectable), wid all wife and children in the car with me. I was pulled over for an alleged traffic offense on Maxfield Ave. The policeman treated me with little or no respect at all, even threatening to lock me up if my kids weren't with me. I can imagine a "poor " youngster from the ghetto meeting up on a "gentleman" like that, possibly without the ability to defend himself (verbally) and without any witnesses. We have seen time and time again the outcome of confrontations like these.
Don't believe because we talk on this forum that we are not aware of what goes on with these so called peace officers.
Check yourself.
[This message has been edited by horyb (edited 07-15-2001).]
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"Good is not good enough where better is expected"
And police all over the world are the same Panjam.
In England 50+ deaths in custody since the 80's. and thats just black people. And no police has ever lost even likkle pay for any of those mishaps.
Then what if they had armed normal officers like in Jamaica.
A man get wild the other day a police spray him with CS Gas. Of course the man a go get wilder. The man dem bun him ina him eye wid the cs gas. Pam Pam...two shot ring out. Dem say police marksman shot him dead.
Man like you would justify such things Panjam. But her my dilemna. I thought the term marksman meant one could lick of the O out of arrow. Not even William Tell would kill a man, if he could mame him.
Some of us buy into reality and self-experience Panjam.
[This message has been edited by jt (edited 07-15-2001).]
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They make the world so hard
REPEAT, REPEAT - posted 07-13-2001 02:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WI LICKLE BUT WI TALLAWAH? SO - what have we achieved as a nation(yes, DQ, Ottey, Bob, Marcus, Wailers, Shaggy been there done that - but mi a talk weh wi achieve as a nation!!!!) when the nation put dem hearts together an support the 98RB the team spirit for whatever reasons died and one of our greatest achievements as a nation - got a shot in di leg again in France, wi never learn fi dance in unity at home so how yu expect fi dance good abroad.... UNITY -the biggest badword in Jamaica If wi keep licking shot inna a wi foot as a nation we will soon be paralyzed
Questions? Why is the PSOJ head surprised at the living conditions of people in W. Kgn when some hard working are paid are J$1500/week dem expect a family of six fi survive pon tupance(two pennies) Rich getting richer everyday - read 7/17/01 Village Voice -how a domestic worker from India taken advantage of by a bank VP and a developer in NYC- her own fellow Indian people- paying her $2/hr fi look after 2 kids an 4bedrms & 5bathrms mansion apt
PSOJ bwoy believe wi a idiot
?of the 27 dead an nuff injured, any badi from uptown who give dem gun, run come help dem when shot a lick or they brought more oily chicken back fi rub into dem wounds don't tell me - all 27 a black people hmm?
?did you see the headlines pon observer.com Tuesday 7/10 - di picture show 5 outa 6 white/whitish men an woman going to sit wit PJ caus dem kids vacation to Europe next summer is in slight jeopardy if stores nuh open soon
?how did di people of Indonesia handle oppression? - di youths tek to the streets Tianamen Sq - di youths tek to streets Chile - di youths tek to di streets Jim Crowism -US 50s60s - di youths I have HOPE, big hopes in di youths a yard dem hav sense, dem jus need a Zachariah fi help dem build di wall and a Moses fi tell PJ and Seaga - let my people GO, NOW
di system is CORRUPT DI people have to realise they are caught in a feudal/slavery/cancer system yes slavery is in Ja. - di politicians using thugs to secure power and keep dem quiet an di business people using economic oppression to enslave dem
What to Do? -can't get a job, learn dressmaking an start wi 2 blouse an skirt -yu can read - ask Puncy fi sen 2 computa book fi learn little programming -take to the streets whether Don want to give yu permission or not and mount peaceful protests from dusk till dawn till the evil elements are rid from society -set up a decent rail system so it takes 10 mins to get to Kgn from spaintown an portmore di everyman have a car is eating up every single dollar dat should go to build good house, school an hospita, playing fields -SET A STANDARD FOR WHAT IS A DECENT HOUSE AN NO MORE BUILDING OF FOWLCUB FI PEOPLE LIVE IN nuh because wi live near USA mean seh wi have resources like dem an can pattern dem -JA road an economy can't support so much vehicles
Too much evil in paradise Get rid of the Lucifers who are sowing evil corn - run di politician henchmen when they cum with handouts - they gonna wipe out a few protesters anyway, maybe hundreds but they can't kill all - the people united can overcome any oppresion whatever/whoever the source or the strength ONLY DI PEOPLE CAN OVERTHROW DI stupid SLAVERY 'DON' system
?did a current bishop receive a special invitation from the reagans and visited the whitehouse afta manley's govt was brought to it's knees - can certain clergy be trusted an still supporting evil systems
Are Jamaicans willing to be led to another slaughter as willing lambs Are we gonna sit an allow our paradise to become another Haiti or wi gonna bun it down like di Liberians did to their country If yu coward an fraid dem go blow off yu head so stand fi wi constitutional right an be treated as citizens or die in the streets like a mangie dawg - No disrespect to anyone who lost someone in dis war
'The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under(the Don's) tribute - Proverbs 12:24 Jamaicans mi a warn unuh band together inna unuh little community - and tun unuh hand an mek fashion - make "Made in Jamaica" be a respected name and storm di world market with quality goods
'Violence covereth the mouth of the wicked' Prov. 10:11 sounds familiar? Yard man abroad, Ja is not only a vacation spot for us we have fi defend our country like wi still a tek bus pon 1/2 way tree rd everyday although yu deh a people yard
Zouse, soup-bone, keep on posting sensible vibes
mia beg unuh-pray especially fi di youth dem Lord I know you are In Charge - but di wicked don't know that - a surprise is coming for dem
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One possible reason why things are not going according to plans is there never was a plan
Removing the guns is only, I repeat, ONLY a temporary measure, Why? Caus if yu tek weh every gun an don't secure and stop the means for the gun importers(JA landlords) to bring di weapons in - in six months after eradicating all di guns a yard, the corrupt police(not all) are still there and plane and boat come a JA everyday so two, twos wi back to square one
REASON, REASON TINGS OUT B4 UNUH POST DIS situation is serious wi nation stand on di precipice of TOTAL COLLASPE
di principles on which di current society is suicidal an di people hav to refer to di constitution an use it fi defend themselves from those raping and plundering although they have big titles behind their names
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One possible reason why things are not going according to plans is there never was a plan
FOR the private sector leaders who went on the fact-finding tour of some of the troubled inner-city communities of West Kingston on Tuesday morning, they might have been given a warning before they boarded their air-conditioned buses.
The advisory might have said that the graphic details of poverty, squalor and deprivation they would see might shock their sensibilities. So too would the cry of the abuses of their basic civil rights.
The tour of communities under siege started on a decidedly unpleasant note. First they were confronted with the sight of an old man's body that had been lying on the ground in front of the Command Post since the Saturday before. As the touring party turned away in disgust, they were staring at rifles of soldiers on the roof of the Command Post pointed, as Peter Moses put it so delicately, "at the area where we are."
It was a far cry from "slumming" in any sense of the word. This was an introduction to hard core inner-city poverty and its attendant problems and disadvantages.
Joblessness, overcrowding, garbage-filled streets, sewage-water in streets. Two hundred displaced families living in little tattoos. Houses looted, destroyed, fire-bombed simply because the householder was suspected to support the JLP or PNP. Hopeless people not knowing which way to go or who to turn to.
People penned into their communities by sniper fire by soldiers of the Jamaica Defence Force once they dared to venture onto the streets. Soldiers going into people's houses, taking the men away "for processing". Net-fishing at its worst.
A Denham Town woman's complaint:
"From Sunday soldiers take my brother, my husband my nephew out of my house. The policeman at Mobile Reserve tell me and some others that is nerve gas them going to left on we in here."
The whole story that of civilians, police, soldiers will not be known until everybody is debriefed.
"Honestly, I think that something was not right with the operation," says a security forces officer close to the bloody events in West Kingston over the three days.
"There is no doubt that there were gunmen who actually confronted the police. In the mix, the police, being only human, would have retaliated. But then there comes a time when you have to draw the line.
"Out of fear, imaginary or real, it went on too much and for too long before it was abated."
He said that in the circumstances of soldiers and police coming under fire their only resort was to fire shots to scare off the attackers and "give them hope to come out alive."
Targets
It was obvious, he said, that security forces personnel had fired shots that were not aimed at targets and those shots fired from such high-powered weapons could very well have resulted in casualties, the high-velocity bullets going even through some walls.
"Such firings, done in the spur of the moment, could only be deemed as reckless", he said.
In the view of another security forces member, the timing of the operation was bad. In addition, he said, apparently Senior Superintendent Reneto Adams did not have his regular Crime Management Unit team with him, so too many inexperienced persons were on the team.
"They were not as experienced in the use of their weapons as they should be, so they fired on full automatic, rather than on semi, and ran out of bullets," he said.
Somehow, the gunmen seemed to have become aware that the police were running out of ammunition, and so moved in on them.
"They suffered from lack of training and panicked under fire," he said.
It was his observation too, that the snipers and their "spotters" were not co-ordinating as they should, but were each shooting at targets.
It was his view also, that Mr. Adams and some of men "were playing too much to the media instead of acquiring targets."
The lesson to be learned, he said, "is that we have to be concerned about life, which is precious. The public have to trust us and we have to trust the public. That's the only way we are going to live together."
He said the police in particular, must be given more protective gear and more training in responding to "what is essentially urban guerrilla warfare." So instead of opening up and shooting wildly with his M16, the policeman would learn to first take cover.
"What we really need is a special squad, highly trained, properly focused, adequately equipped to go into situations like this and take on urban terrorists," he said. "There are many lessons to learn as this may not be the last time."
There is no doubt that there are gunmen in Tivoli Gardens as they are in Matthews Lane, in Rema, in Arnett Gardens, in Hannah Town in Rose Town, Craig Town, Southside, Bowerbank, Dunkirk and in every inner-city community in the Corporate Area of Kingston and St. Andrew and elsewhere. Frequent seizure by the police of illegal guns in these places every so often prove the point.
What all Jamaicans want, is a credible professional, non-partisan Police Force to go after the gunmen, wherever they are, and take the guns from them.
With Jamaica's murder rate hovering too close to 1,000 a year for the last several years, heaven knows what the caseload of a homicide detective is. What the country needs are police personnel who build cases that do not fall apart in the courts. In other words, cops who investigate then arrest; not arrest first then spend months investigating.
This, and the much-talked-about community policing, are the sure-fire ways to start restoring confidence in the police force, so inner-city dwellers will look to the police for justice rather than to the dons of the inner cities. But this won't be an easy task.
