T, a lot of ites jump into a topic w/o a clue what they are getting into. Just as how a lot of peeps jump into sea or river and cyaan swim. Thank yur lucky star you are on land.
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One possible reason why things are not going according to plans is there never was a plan
G, I agree 100% but I think we're all guilty! You've been very infomative but I was hoping you would address the issues in a more concise manner rather than directing us to the nearest Amazon or Chapters. I believe the question is why did the Europeans got the best of us from day one which herb addressed in his asumptions/facts. It's a very logical one I might add but please summaries the main reasons then once it's on the table it can be debated.
G said,"Jah B,One of the answers is 'Divide and Conquer'Another is stealing or plain bareface tiefing" well I believe it was a combination of all of the above. BTW sorry I missed it.
I post this in its entirety rather than just the link because it may make a lot of people named "morris" realize that they probably have more in common with the brothers that they realize.
The Moorish Impact Upon Europe
The Muslim world's understanding of natural sciences was unparalleled in Europe during Medieval times. The Muslims were able to trace the path of rays of light through air, a prerequisite for corrective eyeglasses. Their endeavors in the field of chemistry brought them to the formulation of gunpowder. In Earth sciences, the Muslims calculated that the Earth was spherical and that everything on the Earth remains in its place due to gravity. Other Muslim devices included the astrolabe and the compass. The Muslims amassed volumes of information on human body functions and the cures for diseases.
Western European thinkers such as Adelard of Bath, Plato of Tivoli, Robert of Chester and many others resided among the Moors and benefited from Islamic academics.
Superb city planners, the Moors in Spain built opulent cities. Cordova had almost five hundred mosques and over three hundred public baths. Shops were numbered in the area of eighty thousand and beautiful water fountains dotted almost every corner. Water was piped down from the mountains to nearly every part of the city. Public bathrooms supplied people with hot and cold running water.
The Mosque of Cordova built by Abd al-Rahman in the 8th Century photo courtesy of Spanish Homepage
The great Arab philosopher Ibn Rushd (known as Averroes in Europe) was born and reared in Cordova in 1126 during the Almoravid dynasty. Averroes was best known for his translation of Aristotle. His name became so linked with Aristolian philosophy that whole schools of philosophy were set up in Paris, Padua and Bologna to spread "Averroism." The impact of Averroes philosophies was such that they continued to provoke debate throughout Europe for several centuries after his death.
Moorish music, songs and poetry also contributed heavily to Europe. The lute and guitar are two examples of instruments given to Europe from the Muslim world. It has been surmised more than a few times that much of Europe's classical music and dance owes a great part to Moorish Spain and the Muslim world in general.
Carving of Moorish dancer from Munich Germany dated at 1480AD photo courtesy of Journal of African Civilizations
The famed Morris dance of Europe is thought to be of Moorish origin. Of this dance one author wrote the following:
Such a dance is not the exclusive property of any one nation, and therefore when Crusading armies met it among their allies, and their enemies, they might attach the name of 'Morris' and 'Morisco' to it. Probably, too, when attempting to dramatize current events, they would black their faces and pretend to be Moors. This may explain the curious Morris Dances of Bacus in Lancashire and Provence, where the dancers wear half coconuts on their knees, waists, and hands, and clap out intricate rhythms as they dance energetically, in much the same way that young men in certain Turki tribal rituals slap themselves with their copy of Moorish antics, for the coconut is of African origin, just as the floating ostrich plumes of the Basque Morris dancers also originated in Africa.
Moorish Spain's affect on European literature are many and can be seen in the work of writers such as Cervantes, Lorca, Dante, Defoe, Shakespeare, Roger Bacon and others. A famous writer said to be of Moorish descent was Alexandar Dumas, author of The Three Musketeers and The Count of Monte Cristo. Another was the famed Russian author, Alexandar Pushkin
Picture of Russian literary figure, Alexandar Pushkin photo courtesy of Blurred Racial Lines Homepage
Following the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, many can be found throughout Europe. Over a million Moors, of various ethnic and racial types, settled in France. Others moved into Holland. Of interest is the story of a Moorish orphan in the Netherlands by the name of Zwarte Piet. This mythical black boy was sometimes associated as a helper to the equally mythical Sinterklaas (Santa Claus).
Statue of a Moorish Christian Norman Knight from Europe, 14th Century photo courtesy of WEB DuBois Institute
By 1507 there were numerous Moors at the court of King James IV of Scotland. One of them was "Helenor in the Court Accounts, possibly Ellen More, who reached Edinburgh by way of the port of Leith and acted a principal role in 'the turnament of the black knight and the black lady,' in which the king of Scotland played the part of the black knight." Ellen More incidentally is also called "Black Elen." There were at least two other Black Moorish women of the royal court who held positions of some status as they are said to have held maidservants and expensive gowns. There is also mention of a "Nageir the More." In 1501 one of the King's Minstrels was Peter the Moryen or Moor who is described as Black.
Prince Alessandro De Medici of Italy, (1510-1534) photo courtesy of Blurred Racial Lines
Frederick II (1197-1250), of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, maintained a close relationship with the remaining Black Moors in Sicily. He retained a Moorish chamberlain who was constantly at his side. Though breaking the Muslim powerbase in the region, he also solicited their aid in his struggle with the papacy. After resettling conquered Muslims on the Italian mainland at Lucera, the monarch was said to have recruited an elite guard of 16,000 Black Moorish troops.
In 1596, Queen Elizabeth, highly distressed at the growing Moorish presence in England, wrote to the lord mayors of the major cities that "there are of late divers blackamores brought into this realm, of which kinde of people there are already too manie, considering how God hath blessed this land with great increase of people of our nation as anie countrie in the world."
Queen Charlotte, wife of the English King George III (1738-1820) photo courtesy of Blurred Racial Lines
But despite these sentiments, Queen Elizabeth herself was known to have Moors within her Tudor Court. One of these was Luce Morgan, also known as Lucy the Negro. She was said to be sought after by many a gentleman including even William Shakespeare. It should also be noted that a significant number of medieval English families with the name Moore, Morris, Morrison, and other such similarities to Moor, bear numerous Africans identified as Moors on their Coats-of-Arms.
Moors on European Coat of Arms photo courtesy of Blurred Racial Lines
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I'll admit I didn't have time to read the entire thread, but I got the jist of what y'all are saying. You people obviously think that every white person in the world is in on this massive plan to keep the third world down. Don't forget, no one FORCED the africans to sell each other into slavery for guns and other crap.
Bottom line: if any third world country does n't like the deal they are getting from another country, then stop dealing with that country and become self sufficient.
I have great pride in our Great African past and mourn its demise.
How do we regain that past? How can we use it to motivate today's youth. At a park near my home on Saturday mornings, several Indian families with --maybe as many as 20 kids-- visit. They all engage in some form of exercise for an hour or so and then a short religious type ceremony and then break up into small groups with a parent who oversees homewoek followed by specialized instruction in Maths and other subjects. The parents will move from group to group during the course of the morning.
It's totally communial. I have no doubt about the academic success of those students over generations of those families.
Guidance reminds us of Van Sertima's great scholarly contributions. This is certainly one way. But recently Bill Gates donation of, I think, 100M$, as a scholarship fund to Black Graduate students of technology and the sciences found a limited number of takers. This may not be a great surprise, given the financial difficulty of getting to grad. school in the first place but....
Another Harlem Renaissance seems unlikely given the gentrification that's taking place there-- maybe that is the Harlem Renaissance!!.
Herb luva asks, I think genuinely, where do we go from here vis a vis the Developed/Underdeveloped relationship. But where do WE go from here with the glorious past.
Is its use limited to being merely a source of pride?
Registered: 02/08/01
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Self sufficient: stop depending on the big boys for hand outs and preferential treatment that they don't deserve, then crying like babies when it is threatened. I respect Cayman. Cayman has far less resources than us(JA) but found a way to command respect. Do you think that the G7 wanted Japan in it - hell no. But Japan did what they had to do and gave the world no choice but to accept them.
Any country that cannot do that needs to keep eating their hand-outs and shut the hell up.
RHM: woy, I don't know if you're kidding....but maybe you should investigate the relationship between the Cayman Islands and the U.K. While you're at it check out Bermuda as well.
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
In 1962, Jamaica became independent and the Cayman Islands opted to remain under British rule. This meant separating from Jamaica, and the power of the Governor of Jamaica over these islands was transferred to the local Administrator.
Incidentally, I did not know that the Cayman Islands were part of Jamaica for 100 years.
Always learning, right RHM. Do you now regard the Cayman Islands with utter contempt?
I am guessing we won't be hearing any further comments from RHM on this thread. heh heh
[This message has been edited by shaggybear (edited 09-17-2001).]
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Obama/Biden 2012 - We need people who actually think in charge, though they should learn to lead!
Wow, I man did not even recognize this thread. From economics to history to economics. Wicked!
Guidance! I see you manning your station as usual. Respect!
RHM and the uptown crew, a soon come.
Herbie: I was checking out your theories and I must say I find them interesting, to say the least. I particularly like the point that "Scientific studies have found no differences between the brains of different races of humans, so it would seem obvious to suggest that there is no difference in brainpower or intelligence." wicked.
Herbie:>>> My theory about the points you raise is as follows: the further away from the equator you travel, the colder it is. Over thousands of years ideas developed to enable the humans that inhabited these regions to live comfortably in their environment. This enterprise was fuelled out of necessity. <<<:
Your other points were well argued and would definately be worthy of further consideration were it not for one thing: It is not consistent with history.
History teaches us that the oldest civilization known to man is that of the Nile Vally, specifically Egypt in NE Africa. Then there was mesopotamia (the fertile crescent?) etc. all those civilizations predated Greece and Rome. The Greeks got in the picture then the Romans. It was because of Romans' need for "slaves" that they annexed and extended thier rule over the saxons and vikings etc.
The point is that Egypt is south of mesopotamia, which is south of Greece which is south of italy/Rome wich is south of the Saxons/Vikings etc. From your "theories" one would assume that civilization flowed north towards the equator but the reality is that the reverse is true. Civilization developed in the south and moved away from the equator toward the north.
Linearity appears to be intuitive and in our quest for thruth we always tend to assume that everything linear. We see the conditions of Africa relative to Europe and we project that it must have always been like that. And so the theory is it must be the climate. Wrong!
In a nutshell, while leaving out much of the details: Northern Europe did to much of Africa/Africans what Rome did to it: it captured slaves to build itself. In fact after the fall of rome Europe went into what is commonly known as the dark ages. It actually took an invasion from north Africa (the moors) to reintroduce learing and spark what is now called the rennaisance.
I heard one scholar suggest that the climate is responsible for making Europeans meaner (more wicked) since their cultures developed in harsh cold and without much to share while those of the tropics tend to be more civil(kinder) because of the warm conditions and more food avialable. Though it sounds tempting I won't subscribe to it.
[This message has been edited by ddread (edited 09-17-2001).]
Originally posted by Red Hills Man: Bottom line: if any third world country does n't like the deal they are getting from another country, then stop dealing with that country and become self sufficient.
If any Third world country even made a MOVE towards self sufficiency, it would be stopped dead in its tracks.
Do you really think the powers that be would allow even one Third World country to be an example to all the others on how to survive?
Self sufficency would involve governmental intervention in business (which the UK, US and Japan used to become powerful and the US throughh the WTO opposes now to maintain its supreme dominance) and controls set in place to protect local industries. These contrls would immediately be challenged by the WTo as restraints to "free" trade.
As for Cayman as an example, well isn't it a dependency of the UK?
JahB, Sorry I'm having problems at work at present and last night had to look after the children while my wife went dancing. Then I went to bed shattered. I'll be with you soon.
It's a great question that I've thought of for years. I've no idea what the answers are, I just have ideas which I'm happy to share and to have shot down.
Not, that its relevent so I'm not expecting an answer, but as for shagging countries but on a small scale, How come such a small percentage of arstocracy own nearly all the land on our main land.
Originally posted by rasputin: Herb luva asks, I think genuinely, where do we go from here vis a vis the Developed/Underdeveloped relationship. But where do WE go from here with the glorious past.
Is its use limited to being merely a source of pride?
Respect Rasp, the underdeveloped world is at the mercy of the developed world and basically will not be allowed anything but the crumbs that fall from the table. What do the following nations have in common: Pakistan India Irag China What do they have in common, Nuclear capability!
If a nation does not have force to match the force of the developed countries then they are pure pawns. Iraq became the center of the Arab world in commerce, culture, education and the works but when the made a claim on land that once was under their domain the G7 formed a posse to pulverise them into the sand. That message is meant not jus for Iraq. It says; "We will tell you how far you can develop, when to develop and when to stop development". Iraq had the troops but not sufficient hardware to respond with a fight much less a long drawn out war.
I do believe a lot of nations regret joining forces w/the West and that is why there are condemning the WTC attack but not supporting W's call for War. Why? Today - Iraq, Grenada, Panama, and Afghan. Tomorrow - Pakistan, India, South Africa or Cuba. Bob warn about politrickians and favors. Sorry fi mawga dawg(one in need of a favor), mawga dawg TUN ROUN BITE YOU!!
So yes the example of the Indian community you mentioned is a graet step. Build strong families and you produce strong communities and in effect strong nations. But realize when you go on the international community is One World Order a rule.
One of the strongest communities I see in NYC are the Jewish ones. How they do this. 1-They live close to each other. They do not travel beyond a certain distance on Sabbath to the synagogues. 2-So they build lots of synagogues near to their homes. 3-Up to high schools, and definitely at elementary the children go to Jewish schools. 4-When a house is up for sale on their block their friends are the 1st to hear about it and view it. 5-They politize together and readily exercise their vote. So if the chief rabbi for the area does a minimal amount of ground work he can easily deliver say 70% of his community to the candidate who they know they can trust. Then they don't stop there they hold that politrickian feet to the fire until he Delivers, Schools, Houses, Jobs, etc.
Hence when you look at a community like Crown Heights where much ruption went on in Dinkins administration, the Jews there tend to vote 'en bloc'. So if the chief rabbi does his work, lays out his manifesto to the selected voteseeker and after the election the influence of that community makes that trickian work his/her butt off.
If the other ethnic communities cannot build so large influential coalitions then dawg nyam dem supper.
So we can rebuild our nations and communities but we have to start with the families. With black families having so many fathers in mental and penal institutions, which are really Plantations and Reservations, we may have to start with the young ones teaching them the necessity of families and communities and slowly rebuild block by block.
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One possible reason why things are not going according to plans is there never was a plan
Herbie and Bolton B. maybe you can help me with some answers from your perspective. I have always wondered and have asked this of many learned people; what is it that allowed the white man to be so much more advanced in his thinking, which made him able to dominate us all through out history?
Firstly, I don't agree that the white man has been more advanced in his thinking. I think the meglamania years result from poor thinking and greed.
Why it happened is probably because it could. There wasn't the understanding that what was happening was so bad. There was no international media organisations giving live broadcasts about events. All information was released through controlled channels, not only auntie beeb but the news papers aren't independant either. Its the freedom of information and the subsequent education that allows country wide populations to formulate different opinions than those with which they have been previosly taught.
Understand that the information being given to 99% of the English population, was how we were helping all these commonwealth countries to develop. Sewerage a good example preached at length in every relevent history text book. That's why I'm so good at talking it eh jt!
The power needs to be treated with much respect. Whether its over your kids, staff, subjects/citizens or other countries. Its all the same. Abuse is common place from people who abuse their power.
I personally believe that of the two sexes women are by far the stronger. In all aspects except physical strength. However because of this one weakness only they have been second class in (perhaps this is over egging the pudding as I don't know) every country of the world. Why is that?
Before I respond to more serious points let me answer this:
Quote:
from Guidance
That message is meant not jus for Iraq. It says; "We will tell you how far you can develop, when to develop and when to stop development".
Not true. This idea, that rich nations want to keep poor nations poor, really pisses me off. The bombing of Iraq was a response to the illegal invasion of a sovereign state. It does not prevent Iraq from developing, as you suggest, it merely stops it from attacking it's weaker neighbours (something I thought you would be in favour of). I don't want to get into an argument about the Gulf war here, save it for another thread (please) - maybe the "terrorism and the Just-War theory" thread (?)
Anyway, onto the other points raised. The main one seems to be encapsulated in what Ddread has said:
Quote:
From your "theories" one would assume that civilization flowed north {I think he meant South!} towards the equator but the reality is that the reverse is true. Civilization developed in the south and moved away from the equator toward the north.
I understand your point. It is true that the Egyptians and Moors in North Africa had civilisations that matched (and bettered) other civilisations of those times. Maybe the pale-faces in Northern Europe were asking themselves: "Why do the dark-men dominate us?"
However, this does not answer Jah B's initial enquiry:
Quote:
what is it that allowed the white man to be so much more advanced in his thinking, which made him able to dominate us all through out history?
Jah B, from reading the thread so far you will hopefully have realised that the white man has not always dominated you all throughout history, (if you agree that the Moors were black).
My answer was aimed at trying to explain the current differences, and I've not read anything on the thread so far which would cause me to drop my current theory. I maintain that the need to adapt to harsher/colder climates, combined with the search for advanced weaponry (as a result of the constant battles in Europe), put the Europeans in a superior position when confronting the (sub-Saharan) Africans.
Back later (watching Champions league highlights!)
