Here is another topic that seems to crop-up on other threads. There have been some pretty awful snipes made at the "developed" countries of the world. It has been insinuated that the poverty of so-called "third world" countries can be attributed to the so-called "developed" countries. I would like to investigate whether this is true (and other related issues) by starting a topic on the subject.
Who thinks that the above is true, and why? How can the worldwide situation be improved? Does it need improving?
Rasputin, thank you for the reading suggestions, I'll see if I can get hold of them.
I suggest, before we go any further, that we need to address a statement made on another thread by Chez:
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the "developed world" is only developed because it says it is.
"Developed" and "rich" are synonymous to me when being used to describe countries such as the U.S., Japan or those in Western Europe. There can be no denying that those named are rich, so I'll avoid using the word "developed" to avoid any confusion.
How are these rich countries responsible for the cause of third world poverty, and how do they perpetuate it?
Registered: 03/13/01
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Ras nice choice of books, I Read "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa", had to special order it. It was recommended to me by my Political Science Professor.
How Europe Underdeveloped Africa, by Walter Rodney.
I think I better read this book. I'll order it to today. Thank you Rasputin.
It'll have to wait until I finish a biography on William Hesketh Lever - he would be an interesting poster on rich & poor. As he made himself into the richest person in the world, but also gave hugh and repeated sums away. His £100,000 donation in 1900 was used to build the school I was educated in. But its not all roses as you can well imagine.
Don't hold your breath for words of wisdom from Walter. It takes me ages to get round to anything.
Registered: 01/04/01
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Here is one simple example of how rich countries keep underdeveloped countires poor, its from Michael Manley: They buy natural resourses from the poor cheaply (eg bauxite) and make it into something that we need (like tractors) and sell it to us at a high cost.
Well, according to Herbie, if you don't like the conditions of the trade then don't partake in it. Plain and simple! Herbie forgeting the racketeering nature of these trades. The "deals" that they make with us are illegal if applied on their own citizens. Don't partake and never own a "tractor" so you never get to build.
Isn't Bauxite an aluminium rich ore? (long time since A level Chemy) In which case, to use it as an example, why doesn't the poor country do the processing into aluminium sheets and sell it to rich countries for a higher profit to reflect the increase in value? I know turning bauxite into aluminium isn't actually that easy but we needed worry about the specifics, its just an example ok?
I know my naivety must scare some of you silly, but just a question.
Registered: 10/21/99
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Billy understand it was designed so the poor country don't get a lot out of it.
Companies such as Alcan, Alpart and other major corporation purchased the rights to these lands. The government can only charge tarriffs but if they charge a big amount on the production then they are threatened that the plant will be closed.
Many of the resources of poor country were given away before and shortly after independence. Remember Nigeria have a lot of Oil, South Africa and Botswana are rich in minerals and Jamaica have more natural resourses than Sweden and other European countries.
Registered: 01/04/01
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And remember too the markets for these natural resources are controlled by the rich countries so we have no say in what prices they pay . Look at copper, rubber, cocoa, etc all these come from poor countries but who contols the prices? Anaconda, Firestone and other multi nationals. Look how the US take the ACP countries to the WTO over our preferential markets in Europe for bananas. A legal treaty we have with the EU yet the US say its illegal. Do you know how much of the markrt we are talking about? .2% of the total world market. Not even that they will allow us, when they have vast plantations in Central America and paying locals slave wages to grow these bananas. Fire fi Dole and Del Monte!!!!!
Thanks assasin & Tman for your help and gentle treatment over things that must drive you insane. If I post stupid things you are welcome to tell me so.
If the mining rights have been sold it could be argued that that was shorted sighted, when investment, committment and hard work would have reaped a greater reward for a longer time. Perhaps it wasn't an option (financially), perhaps some people got extremely rich at the expense of everybody else, I don't know. However once sold its as if you never had it - and that seems most sad.
On other commodites I don't understand how for example the OPEC countries can form a cartel so strong that they become amongst the richest countries in the world. Whereas others get a pittance for commodities of equal demand.
Until Michael manley stepped in in the 70's, we were selling bauxite for 1 cent/ton(tonne). Obviously one of our leaders deemed it fit to sell the country short, so in that regard we are to blame. On the other hand attempts to get a fair price were always met,(as Assasin said),with the threat of plant closures. I guess in the end if you give anyone the opportunity to rip you off they will. We as a people have always lacked the foresight to avoid these pitfalls. When Selassie called for Africa to unite many people could'nt see thru what he was saying. If the African continent was united, the black race could never be dominated. There is oil, minerals and all kinds of resources. Look at how the Nigerians are conning the pants of the Int'l community. Why could we not have used those brains to our advantage? We allowed "the man" to carve up the region and teach the people all kinds of different languages, which have kept us divided and unable to unite. I'm sure that I have gone off on all kinds of tangents but the fact still remains that third world countries have been placed in a cycle of poverty that will never be broken. A lot of it is our doing but the 1st world countries must be blamed for their role in suppressing us. This is a perspective, my dear friends from England, that you can never truly understand.
I think this cycle win continue until we as a people look into ourselves and demand what we need by uniting as one force to achieve what ever goals we may.If we for eg in the pass had united for eg with the bauxite,we could have formed a corporation whereby we use the electricity generated form oil in Trinidad to smelter the bauxite into aluminium right here in the Caribbean and then sell it at a higher price,instead of sending the bauxite to places such as North America and Europe at a less profitable price.It's a bit late now,but that is a prime eg of how the rich countries by design will forever be keeping the poor countries in the state that they are.From time to time they will tell you that you can get loans and then the enormous interest that must be paid back will only keep the cycle going around and around.What these countries should do,is that they should FORGIVE ALL THIRD WORLD DEBT and start a new.These coutries have profited for centuries off the mineral and other resources of the poor countries.
Well, according to Herbie, if you don't like the conditions of the trade then don't partake in it. Plain and simple! Herbie forgeting the racketeering nature of these trades. The "deals" that they make with us are illegal if applied on their own citizens. Don't partake and never own a "tractor" so you never get to build.
I am ignorant when it comes to the "racketeering nature of these trades", could you explain please? How are the "deals that they make...illegal if applied on [our] own citizens"?
Jah B may be right when he says that it is a perspective we (English) will never understand, but it won't be through lack of trying on my part.
Ddread, not selling bauxite - which starts the chain that ends with the purchasing of tractors from rich countries - does not mean that the poor countries will "never" have tractors. The process would first have to be learnt, and some materials may have to be imported, but poor nations could (eventually) build their own tractors.
The only way for poorer countries to empower themselves is to educate their people. Knowledge really is power (Francis Bacon). Of course, this costs - and I have sufficient understanding to see the "catch 22". This is where the enlightened people amongst us have their part to play. We can harass governments into cancelling ALL third world debt for a start. We can organise events, to support charities in raising aid for schools in poor nations. Skilled teachers from rich nations can (and do) offer their services in the aid-run schools....and bit-by-bit, as the poor empower themselves, wealth can be redistributed more evenly around the globe. This is not a "pipe-dream", it has already begun. We have a duty to ensure that it continues.
Jah B wrote:
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We allowed "the man" to carve up the region and teach the people all kinds of different languages, which have kept us divided and unable to unite.
There were different languages all over Africa before European invasion, and there were also tribal battles between the African peoples already taking place. The "white man" did not exactly land in the Garden of Eden. Let's at least be accurate here, and fair too.
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the fact still remains that third world countries have been placed in a cycle of poverty that will never be broken. A lot of it is our doing but the 1st world countries must be blamed for their role in suppressing us.
I admire your honesty in admitting the mistakes of (some of) the people who now live in poverty as a result, and I accept that the "1st world countries" suppressed the African people for centuries. It could then be argued that the rich countries owe compensation to these people; but what compensation should be given? Would money really help? Perhaps in the short-term it would, but you only have to look at how billions of £/$ of aid (or even loans) have been spent, to see that simply giving money to poor countries does not provide a long-term solution to their poverty. If compensation should be given, it should be in the form of helping to build systems that encourage empowerment (IMO), e.g. schools, colleges, universities etc..
The only alternative to the view that I am supporting above, (i.e. that the rich countries should help the poor), is to accept that there have always been poor people in the world (since the beginning of civilisation) and attempts to eradicate poverty are pointless. People who hold such a view believe that relief efforts are a labour of Sisyphus - and can change nothing. Some would even argue that all aid/relief should be stopped immediately (with the exception of birth control) because giving it merely exacerbates the problem by encouraging further population growth, and therefore increased poverty [Garrett Hardin]. I would like to take this opportunity to point-out that this is not my view(!).
We are The Children of Sisyphus, because we live in Persistent Poverty as a result of The Debt Trap which was established by Capitalism and Slavery.
While the Europeans did not find The Garden of Eden in Africa,their intervention permanently altered the course of its history. What Africa would have become is now academic. Some make a big deal of Africans' participation in the Slave Trade--- agreed. But Africans did not outfit ships and create the infrastructure.
Just as some Jews Were Hitler's Willing Accomplices in the Camps as bosses, or as Nazi collaberators in the French underground we do not hold them responsible for Nazism.
[This message has been edited by rasputin (edited 09-13-2001).]
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Mi sidung pon di wall ah wach dem ah wach me --
the way forward is understanding the immensity of the task and putting into perspective the time and resources needed to effect the desired result/changes. Many of us expect the developing world to catch up to the developed nations within our lifetimes. It took the developed nations centuries of systematic and sustained expansionist ideology fueled by colonialism, technological revolutions, wars and mass migrations. Yet we want to achieve this result in no more than a couple of generations! Nothing is impossible but I do not recommend that you hold your breath waiting.
All is not gloom and doom however, for the very institutions created to legitimize the economic disparity, WTO et. al., also offer real avenues for progress if used wisely. Success requires that our representatives no longer be chosen on the basis of patronage but on merit and be held accountable for their performance.
