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#92212 - 04/23/08 07:47 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: gizmo]
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cruyff14
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. . .for the people that say Obama should be attacking Clinton's experience claim-the exit polls are interesting. Even with all the controversy with her basically making up a story about sniper fire in Bosnia-her numbers among 'experience voters' actually went up-94%. Which is as I said-any time the discussion is about experience it's going to hurt Obama regardless, even against Clinton and certainly against McCain. And as I also said
this idea that he should just take away her experience justification and thus win easily is a bit naive.
Also interesting is that with him talking more the last few weeks about the other campaign and sounding like a more conventional politician his percentage among the 'change voters' which is consistently twice the number of the 'experience voters' has dropped into the 60's, down from the 80's in some previous primaries. Bad strategy IMHO.
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Sic Luceat Lux
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#92216 - 04/23/08 09:09 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: cruyff14]
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truetrini
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Registered: 01/29/01
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why he cant dust off Clinton as yet?
Maybe he really not ready?
_________________________
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
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#92217 - 04/23/08 10:11 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: truetrini]
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gizmo
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The Rules of Clintonball
by Hunter
Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:11:45 AM PDT
Forget the spin: the race is where it is. Clinton won Pennsylvania. The overall delegate margin has barely budged, however, and it is now even more assured that there is no reasonable scenario where Clinton can pull out a primary win absent intervention by the superdelegates.
I was never a Clinton fan, in this campaign. I have previously stated my deep discomfort with the notion that the person most deserving of the Presidency of the United States just miraculously happens to be the person married to the last Democratic President of the United States; it smacks far too much of the usual intra-Washington narcissism, and carries the strong whiff of American monarchy, something already wafting through the air after the ridiculous rise of the Boy King. At the same time, however, there seems little value in debating whether Clinton should or should not leave the race. That is entirely up to Clinton, and any candidate with a mathematical chance -- even if slim -- of pulling out a win has every right to see the race through until that last fateful day. I don't buy the notion that the campaign is hurting the Democratic party: any election that generates this level of excitement among Democratic voters is hardly a bad thing.
What bothers me, however, is the increasingly insulting quality of the campaign and surrogate spin as each successive campaign day wears on. It is fine to celebrate a Pennsylvania win -- by all means, a victory is a victory, and a significant and hard-fought one at that -- but all I ask in politics is that the spinners of each camp try their best to not make it quite so obvious that they think the rest of us really are a spectacular new species of rubes, able to be led by the nose to whatever ridiculous and improbable conclusion would best benefit a particular camp.
Listening to Clinton campaign surrogates on television, before the PA votes ever started to trickle in, was truly painful. Suddenly one state was the only state that mattered. All those other states were merely prelude: if Clinton could eke out a victory in this state, trailing in the delegate count would no longer be significant, and it would be a brand new race, and Obama would be on the ropes, and Clinton would suddenly win a billion dollars, a pony, and the moon; attention must be paid. It is not enough for Obama to simply be winning the nomination according to the rules laid out in advance: no, he must win the "right" way, according to the Clinton campaign and surrogates, or it doesn't count. He has to win the "right" states. And he has to win primaries, not caucuses. And he has to "close the deal", shutting Clinton out of remaining wins entirely, or it proves something ominous (the fact that Clinton has not been able to "close the deal" against him, and is instead trailing him badly and irreparably, barring superdelegate do-over, somehow does not count against her own merits.) And he not only has to win the "popular vote", but he has to win that, too, the right way, which is to say by counting only certain states and not counting others. And he has to win small towns, not just big population centers, because winning big population centers is elitist. Except that if he wins small towns in the West and Midwest, that doesn't count, because it's more important to win the big population centers. And all of this somehow proves that Clinton is a better candidate against McCain than Obama is, even though the polls to date have consistently shown Obama is a better candidate against McCain than Clinton is.
Now, I'm all for surrogates talking up their candidate, assuming they don't insult my intelligence in the process. But with the ever-changing rules and subrules of Clintonball, my intelligence feels fairly insulted, at this point. There seems to be an ever-expanding list of rationales why the delegate counts in front of our faces don't actually matter, or don't actually exist, or are terribly misleading. There seems to be an ever-expanding list of supposedly devastating Obama faults, such as the supposed elitism of the black guy from Chicago (seriously?), and there is a cynical and mocking dismissal of political eloquence from a campaign that once counted the political eloquence of their former president as one of their greatest assets. People have muttered over the negative tone of the campaign of late: hell, go negative. It's about time the Democrats figured out how to competently go negative, even though so far they have only bothered to practice it against each other. More irritating is that the negative attacks presented are, well, stupid, and seem increasingly to be predicated on the notion that voters, the press, the pundits, and we political hangers-on are all idiots seeking to cling to the most shallow of accusations. The press and the pundits? OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of us, however, weren't born yesterday.
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#92219 - 04/23/08 10:15 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: truetrini]
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Big Mountain
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Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 1826
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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why he cant dust off Clinton as yet?
Maybe he really not ready?
If that was the case then maybe the republican media would be focusing on Hillary instead of Obama then? If you watched all the Flux news talking heads - It's an Obama Bashing Contest. They (GOP) have spent a lot of money here in PA just to ensure that Hillary wins. She is getting help from all angles of the GOP. They are preparing her for a Rude Awakening if she ever gets the nomination. Even this Billionaire guy in Pittsburgh who spent millions to Impeach her husband, Bill Clinton had given her his endorsement and $$$ support. Sounds fishy?
Hillary is doing McCain a great favor with her Rambo style slug-fest. That's why she is exempt for now. PA Dems voted for Hillary purely based on race, nothing else, just like Black folks voted for Obama. What saved her is that they are the majority 82%. If Obama was a White Candidate, Hillary would have never won PA.
_________________________
"Go tell it on the Mountain!"
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#92220 - 04/23/08 10:21 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: gizmo]
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gizmo
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Polls indicate that 1 in 6 voters said that race played a role in the reason they did not vote for Obama. The race baiting, the cling gaffe and the Clinton family/PA myth played a role in further inciting racial distrust and prejudice. Bill then brough up back the race card comment and then throe in the Ben Laden add and shazam! The irony is that Hillary clothed herself in Republican filth to prove her point showing that like them she'll do anything to win. Obama is ready...it seems the US is not. Serves to remind me of the song by the Israelites..."By the rivers of Babylon...how can I sing King Alpha's song in this strange land?"
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#92222 - 04/23/08 10:46 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: gizmo]
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pressafoot
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Registered: 01/13/03
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'Some of' the same people who voted for the half-white black guy against the white woman so far, are 'some of' the same ones who will vote against him for the old white guy in the general election. This does not include the ones who did not vote.
The ones who said race was a factor are the honest ones.
Granted there can be inter-caste class tranches, is America a class or caste based society?.
This half-white black guy is the type many a white Americans just do not care for. Maybe if he'd played some sort of 'ball' in college? He brings out the American insecurity when it come to black people.
Of the three, he is obviously the best intellectually. Kennedy was lacking in 'experience' also, so it is now said the half-white black guy isnt 'tough' enough. But if he gets 'tough'....?
If they take it from him and give to the white woman(biggest beneficiary of the civil rights movement), she loses.
If he gets the nomination, finally, Americans will vote in record numbers and it won't be pretty.
one man's opinion
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#92225 - 04/23/08 11:08 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: pressafoot]
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shaggybear
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Once again, let's take a look at what the Obama campaign had predicted back in early February:
They are not far off at all.
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#92226 - 04/23/08 11:12 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: shaggybear]
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shaggybear
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They've been right on just about everyone except Maine, which I think they won as well.
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#92227 - 04/23/08 11:15 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: shaggybear]
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shaggybear
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Indiana might be a dead heat.
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#92228 - 04/23/08 11:22 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: shaggybear]
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shaggybear
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Other projections on the remaining contests by NBC:
Total votes
Clinton
Obama
Projection
NC
1,500,000
675,000
825,000
45%-55%
IN
900,000
460,000
440,000
51%-49%
WV
400,000
240,000
160,000
60%-40%
KY
500,000
300,000
200,000
60%-40%
OR
600,000
270,000
330,000
45%-55%
SD
100,000
45,000
55,000
45%-55%
MT
125,000
56,250
68,750
45%-55%
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#92229 - 04/23/08 11:39 AM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: cruyff14]
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Big Mountain
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Registered: 03/26/01
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Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Also interesting is that with him talking more the last few weeks about the other campaign and sounding like a more conventional politician his percentage among the 'change voters' which is consistently twice the number of the 'experience voters' has dropped into the 60's, down from the 80's in some previous primaries. Bad strategy IMHO.
I don't think it's a matter of bad strategy. The only 2 States where this number dropped were in Ohio & PA as they share practically the same demographics. Regardless of what strategy Obama campaign took, he would not have gain much in these states. Also, these 2 states have an overwhelmingly strong Clinton base...Old White people and Blue Collar (White)workers. There is nothing he could have done to cut into these two groups. The first group is too old and senile to remember Hillary's nasty tricks and the other is too dumb & stupid to remember that her husband NAFTA policy cost them their jobs.
Obama consistently does well with younger folks, educated and higher income groups. It's obvious they are the only ones that can see through her.
_________________________
"Go tell it on the Mountain!"
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#92239 - 04/23/08 12:20 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: truetrini]
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cruyff14
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Registered: 07/23/00
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why he cant dust off Clinton as yet?
. . .white women
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#92249 - 04/23/08 01:44 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: truetrini]
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cruyff14
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why he cant dust off Clinton as yet?
. . .that question shows how far he's come-can you imagine someone asking that question 6 months ago?
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#92250 - 04/23/08 01:53 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: Big Mountain]
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cruyff14
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The first group is too old and senile to remember Hillary's nasty tricks and the other is too dumb & stupid to remember that her husband NAFTA policy cost them their jobs.
. . .How interesting, you came on the site a few short weeks ago extolling the virtue of former President Clinton and now you're calling people stupid for supporting his wife because of the effects of his policies and also calling other people senile because they can't remember the Clintons' dirty tricks(which have gone on non-stop for almost 20 years now)-you don't have any shame?  .
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#92253 - 04/23/08 03:59 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: Big Mountain]
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truetrini
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Hillary still in de back ah dis race.....but more and more race playing ah big part.
Maybe the question should not be: Is Obama ready?
But : Is America really ready?
_________________________
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
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#92254 - 04/23/08 04:15 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: truetrini]
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pelepapa
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Registered: 07/24/03
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why he cant dust off Clinton as yet?
Maybe he really not ready?
She is already dust off under any scenario imaginable except if Obama implodes. The party should not allow her to sit around waiting for or prodding her opponent to implode. If she cannot win numerically then they should force her out. Why would the party keep their likely nominee in a protracted no-win situation being beating up by someone who would rather see him lose so she could run in 4 years? How does that serve the party? The Clintons did the same thing 4 years ago when they backed Clark knowing he couldn't win but he would neutralize Kerry's military background.
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#92255 - 04/23/08 04:52 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: pelepapa]
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pelepapa
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The main reason Obama hasn't put her away is because he has not learn how to camouflage his color.
What group is he consistently losing? Old white folks and blue collar white folks...What do these 2 group have in common that the bonehead commentators are failing to report? They are historically the most racist segment of the population. Not only are they racist, they literally hate black people. The old white folks long for the good old days when they controlled all facet of society and the blue collar folks are 'bitter', because they perceive that every advancement made by blacks or any social program geared towards leveling the playing field for blacks was done at their expense.
Obama doesn't have a problem, these folks do.
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#92261 - 04/23/08 06:10 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: pelepapa]
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gizmo
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How does he get them to vote for him? He must make a stronger economic policy argument. He must have more micro campaigning door by door and block by block. He must go to their neighborhoods and churches and schools. He should hint that he'd give strong support to church programs. He must make ads with his white mother and grandfather's picture. He must emphasize that people need to pull themselves up by their own bootsrap and he should get members of the white clergy to endorse him publicly. He needs to emphasize his proposal of not taxing social security and givng middle class tax breaks. He should get a white female to come on the campaign trail with him. He needs to make ads with MLK and JFK's voice in it. Get Kennedy to come on the trail with him...he's catholic. He needs to do thi qucikly and clothe himself in faith, patriotism and grace.
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#92263 - 04/23/08 06:48 PM
Re: President " OBAMA" it's possible......"OBAMA--08"
[Re: gizmo]
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Big Mountain
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Some good points there Gizmo. Actually, Obama did a lot and more of what you stated but as PP indicated these are not the type of people that are willing to give anything. Also, bear in mind that these two groups are more pronounced in PA & Ohio. He has won other White states with votes from this same group. Example; Vermont & Iowa.
We are also overlooking the fact that the media is playing a great role in influencing this race. Of all the major networks ABC, NBC, FAUX, CNN (Clinton News Network) and CBS, only MSNBC gives Obama any fair play. All these networks have made their choice clear. Especially, of note is FAUX & ABC. They are running their own campaign to bring Obama down.
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