There are now 15 teams participating in the msl. I think the top 7 or 8 teams could easily make it in the League Championships. The average regular season mls game draws around 18,000 more or less fans, thats way more than the average League Championship game.
At the senior international level, Eric Vernon is much more suited to playing the midfield or as a winger.
Against Peru and Costa his lack of size and height create mismatches that minimized his talents. He is a midfielder/winger no doubt or question about it.
Now, the situation with Jason Morrison, I am still wondering. He and Austin played together at Portmore United and have good understanding on the field, so it just makes me wonder. However, I also noticed that Tappa only selected one player from each overseas club, so it might have been an agreement.
I'm not against Vernon being tried in midfield, he played wing back for us and overlaps well. However to be inserted into a starting midfield role against a quality team I think is a bit premature; but I'm more lenient toward Vernon because he has proven he's going somewhere.
However the Kari Stephenson selection and starting is puzzling to me. If TAPPA is looking for hungry players certainly KARI is not the one.
I believe when an important player is not chosen it should be known....
it would be hard to request 2 Players from same Club for Intl Friendly, refering to Morrison and Phlilips.
You would think fringe players like Stevenson and Powell would go all out to impress Tappa to try get a spot in Goal Cup squad but it does not seem like that was the case.. I could be wrong..
Tappa has repeatedly said the "right attitude" and "willingness" to work hard" are the keys to getting selected in his Squad. Its not all about talent with Tappa, so don't surprised to certain of your fav ballers left out of GC Squad. This sentiment was also echoed by Walter Gama regarding the selection on the u20 team.
M'Fire, we do not have the luxury of excluding our best on the basis they don't work hard enough. If that's the case KARI has no business on this team; he's the laziest, unmotivated RBYZ i've ever seen.
Remember Semoes tried this before last world cup qualifying, leaving off some of our best players and we got burned. Tappa re-instate some and we almost made it. beating MEX, HON,...
Now TAPPA is singing, it seems SEMOES tune....we'll see.
Ric when did this revelation regarding Jamaica home based players hit you?
Go back to last GC and tell us why you wished Barnes had seen it through. Wasn't it because in your estimation he would've played these very same homebased players you are now lambasting over the ones that actually played?
Just trying to find some kind of consistency in these arguments.
No you introduced these other CONCACAF teams in the conversation to try and make your point?
Where the USA first team play is not much of an issue. The USA was a top CONCACAF team before any of their players set foot in Europe. I don't think any of those players developed in Europe, they went there after they developed. Those who went to Europe to develop came back more rubbish than when they left. That's a fact, therefore I don't understand your point.
I have no need to hate on English football. They have accomplished nothing with 100% of their players playing in the powerful EPL, therefore it mek more sense if you tell to stop laughing at English football than hating on it.
Sigh....!
Let me explain my point againnnn...since its not getting through to you.
From a football viewpont, not football politics, in which you seem to be an expert.
The USA played in 2 major tournaments in 2009; the Confederations Cup and the Gold Cup.
Using their first-team players, who we have established, the majority play in the top professional leagues in Europe, the USA beat the then current and now world champions, Spain, getting to the tournament final.
Using their second-string, MLS-based team, the USA got to the Gold Cup final and were soundly trounced by Mexico.
If you discount the leagues and standard that these players are playing in, then by your reasoning, the USA's MLS team would or should have been able to play in the Confed Cup and achieve the same results; to you, the leagues in which these players are playing in has no bearing on anything.
Its a good thing you're not an international coach and Bob Bradley has more saavy about football to know the difference between his top and second string players.
Jamaica has a unique situation but I believe that Jamaica's problem has been compounded by the clamouring and screeeching of some idiaat fans who don't know f***k all about football demanding a local-based team at the expense of trying to canvass the very best players who qualify to play for Jamaica, regardless of where they were born.
Unfortunately for your opinions, some of those players were born and play in England; this has not been any new controversy but until Jamaica gets our arse handed to us on a plate, these same idiaat fans still continue to fool themselves that this current Jamaica side is a good football side just because they can pick up a decent result here and there.
My wishing Barnes had seen Jamaica through the last GC had nothing to do with which players I preferred him to pick.
My views were totally based on the fact that he had been a successful coach on a winning streak and had built momentum in the side in preparation for the GC.
Firing him disrupted the entire situation and Jamaica ended up paying the price, as any team in the world would have done.
BTW, I believe that John Barnes had every intention to scout and canvass England for some of these same players and that he would have invited more of them into the squad; could that have been a reason that the JFF were so quick to boot him out to please these same idiaaat fans ?
It is sad to see you don't even know what you were arguing about. At least you remembered that you were arguing that Barnes should've continued. After the 20/20 hindsight vision of the flameout of course.
Who was Barnes training when he got canned? No the homebased players?
You were very specific why you would've wanted Barnes to continue. You could check back on your posts and refresh your memory if you really forgot.
Now you are emphatically arguing the other way.
You were correct then and you are correct now. If only the JFF could run the programme with your hindsight 20/20 vision Jamaica would never lose another game. Something tells me you will soon have your chance to change your tune again.
You are talking as if Jamaica never tried the mostly UK based players before. It didn't work either, remember? I don't sense that the followers of Jamaican football are that patriotic that they wouldn't endorse the whole team coming from the UK if that would guarantee a place in the WC. It is because this did not work and the JFF know that it is not sustainable why you don't find a huge cry for it.
Your argument about the USA confederation cup team and the GC team makes no sense whatsoever. I think the importance here is not where the players played when the tournament started, but rather where did they develop.
Which players on the USA squad can you point to and list a major development that you can attribute to him playing in the UK? Demeritt? He got his chance in the UK, if you want to give the UK credit for him being where he is then I will grant you that. Who else?
Which other USA player can you say if he wasn't playing in the UK he wouldn't be the player he is today?
Funny thing is if you asked that question you can only point to the ones whose career stalled by going to the UK or to one of these other 'big' leagues.
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Originally Posted By: pelepapa
You are talking as if Jamaica never tried the mostly UK based players before. It didn't work either, remember? I don't sense that the followers of Jamaican football are that patriotic that they wouldn't endorse the whole team coming from the UK if that would guarantee a place in the WC. It is because this did not work and the JFF know that it is not sustainable why you don't find a huge cry for it.
Pele, I know this is directed at Ric, but can you give me more details on the above statement?
You are talking as if Jamaica never tried the mostly UK based players before. It didn't work either, remember? I don't sense that the followers of Jamaican football are that patriotic that they wouldn't endorse the whole team coming from the UK if that would guarantee a place in the WC. It is because this did not work and the JFF know that it is not sustainable why you don't find a huge cry for it.
Pele, I know this is directed at Ric, but can you give me more details on the above statement?
Let me lay it out in a general manner.
Has Jamaica won any tournaments or accomplished much since 1998 playing with a mostly UK/European based team or has Jamaica never played with a mostly UK/European based team since 1998?
Or did the Jamaican football public woke up the day after the 1998 WC and said please Burrell no more UK based players, that WC run was just too much for our little hearts, we can't take all the excitement of being on world stage?
I don't think Burrell replaced Boxhill because the football public thought he could get more out of the Jamaican based players than Boxhill was getting.
If I remember correctly Burrell's campaign slogan was something to the effect that whenever Jamaica plays he will ensure that the best players, no matter where they are from, are on the field.
Another campaign promise was to improve Jamaica's FIFA ranking. Again I don't think anyone of us thought he will be able to accomplish that with the home based players.
All this adds up to Burrell having a mandate to play the UK based players if they are proven to be the best for JA.
Obviously it takes more than just putting in a call to get a UK based player on the field.
Barnes took over the programme proclaiming that the home based players were out of luck because he intended to win now and don't have the time to work with them. When he was fired he was working feverishly with the, yes you guessed it, home based players.
Burrell had a mandate to play the best players out there, Barnes made a declaration that he will be playing mostly foreign based players, yet here we are.
Funny how people say things and it is taking as gospel, because I never heard of a movement to boycott games if the UK players play and I must have missed this big march on the JFF headquarters by the Jamaican Football public demanding that the JFF play the home based players over the UK based players. It must have been on twitter.
Finally, how come when I point out that Burrell waste money the JFF doesn't have trying to appease the fans I am reminded that he is a tyrant who does as he pleases and doesn't listen to anyone? Now in the face of this invisible boycott and protest against the UK based players he turned into a mouse?
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Pele, I hear you and some of your points are valid. Still a players location should have no bearing on their selection. Selection should be based on form, fitness, desire, and availability. Having our best available team does not guarantee success, it only increases your chances of winning. If you put your best team on the field and you still lose...imagine what the consequences would be if you used your B or C team.
Absolutely nothing more than a journeyman footballer who relies too much on brutality; no skill, quile or intelligence to play at the top level; that's why he's playing in Scandinavia !
Heaven help Jamaica if Austin is going to be a mainstay for the team come the summer.
Ric when Austin is in his position (defensive middle) he's more than adequate for us.
I know you may frown on this, but he was the player of the tourney in the past DCC; he's an improving player give him some credit.
He's not our holding midfielder by any stretch of imagination even though TAPPA had tried him for that role; doesn't have the creative touch and vision for that role.
Originally Posted By: Ric
The individual players that play in England have the skill to adapt to the Jamaican style of play; Jamal Campbell Ryce is a good example and he did brilliantly in the last WC qualifiers.
Jamaica will not be able to get all of the players from England into the squad but they should at least make an attempt to identify those that are playing in the positions where the team needs strengthening and give them a call.
What does Jamaica have to lose by trying ?
RIC, I love CAMPBELL RICE but he has nothing over DANE RICHARDS. DANE have the ability to play in the EPL, likewise CUMMINGS.
Our weakest position is creative/holding midfield, and the English player we thought could help in that role -JERMAINE PENANT- had not look our way at all.
How highly to you rate the top tier division in USA (MLS), Sweden(Allsven), and Norway(Tippenlagen) in comparison to the England League Championship in terms of quality of play ONLY?
I can answer you in one simple word...
SPEED of thought; the intesity in the EPL and Championship is such that players in those leagues have to think, pass, move and read the game much quicker than the other leagues under discussion.
If you look at the USA's team right now, how many first squad players are playing in MLS ?
Exactly !
The USA's MLS squad picked up 5-0 from Mexico in the last GC final; the USA used the MLS players because their first team had been involved in the Confederation Cup.
If the USA, a giant in Concacaf, cannot be successful with their own MLS, home-based players, what makes you think that Jamaica will do any better ?
Is there not an obvious lesson to be learned here ?
RIC your assumption here is unbalance, this USA team put together for the first time to face formidable opponent. here are the teams:
1 Troy Perkins 1 Francisco Guillermo Ochoa
16 Jay Heaps 15 José Castro 3 Clarence Goodson 5 Fausto Pinto 2 Heath Pearce 21 Juan Valenzuela 4 Chad Marshall 2 Johnny Magallón 5 Kyle Beckerman 22 Efraín Juárez 8 Logan Pause 6 Gerardo Torrado 10 Stuart Holden 8 Israel Castro 7 Robbie Rogers 7 Alberto Medina 22 David Arnaud 14 Miguel Sabah 11 Brian Ching 17 Giovani Dos Santos Substitutes 23 Jon Busch Jesús Corona 12 14 Michael Parkhurst Ismael Rodríguez 3 13 Colin Clark Pablo Barrera 13 21 Brad Evans Luis Noriega 19 15 Sam Cronin Carlos Esquivel 16 20 Santino Quaranta Guillermo Franco 10 17 Kenny Cooper Carlos Vela 11
RIC your assumption here is unbalance, this USA team put together for the first time to face formidable opponent. here are the teams:
All these plying their trade in the MLS doesn't mean they are on the same talent level as US top players.
Because a player is in a particular league doesn't necesarily make them a national player, and you can't condemn the MLS because the bulk of the USA second string players in 2009 came from there.
After all they were together for the first time as a total b team playing against of all teams MEXICO.
I wouldn't attribute anything the USA has accomplished to anything having to do with the UK.
I agree the bulk of their effective players came out of the MLS. That's why I told RIC that in any league you'll find national players and national rucks.
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Their most influential players don't play in the UK.
But now they do, except for Donovan....
[quote=pelepapa] Dempsey is usually a joke when it comes to his play with the national team and without a strong leader like Donovan and Bocanegra, Dempsey would be a big distraction, particularly in his earlier days. As far as Howard is concern he could play in a corner league and he would be the same.
Quote:
PELE, this is disrespect, you don't have to like DEMPSEY style of play, but after all he plays in the EPL and start as well. He has quality to his game, and either scored or assist on some of USA important goals. He's a proven starter for the USA a tireless worker, give the man some credit.
[quote=pelepapa] Ric always try to make this argument that the UK is having this huge improvement on CONCACAF players and I am yet to see this evidence. A lot of players leave CONCACAF for England and other major leagues in Eurpoe and come back more rubbish than when they left.
England and Europe are taking talent out of CONCACAF, they are not creating talent for CONCACAF, don't get it twisted.
I don't know about the coming back rubbish talk, maybe lower league players, because OMAR DALEY, JERMAINE JOHNSON, and a few others plying their trade in the lower leagues has being in poor form for us, and maybe won't be invited back on this team.
In the EPL and the CHAMPIONSHIP FULLER & BIBI had bode well for us, CAMPBell RYCE in LEAGUE ONE also is a formidable attacker.
Yes EPL & othere take talent from this side of the pond, they did not develop them.
Pele, I hear you and some of your points are valid. Still a players location should have no bearing on their selection. Selection should be based on form, fitness, desire, and availability. Having our best available team does not guarantee success, it only increases your chances of winning. If you put your best team on the field and you still lose...imagine what the consequences would be if you used your B or C team.
I can never argue against playing your best, but you have to admit that sometimes there are objectives you are trying to accomplish in a game, especially friendlies, that are more important than just winning. You questioned whether experimenting so close to GC is wise and I think that is the most salient point in this whole debate. It questioned the timing, not this crazy notion that every game is played solely to win or to put your best players in every game. Which team in the world does that ?
The last point you made was the exact point I made to Ric after last GC when it became apparent that the selected A team was not in shape. He took advantage of hindsight, which we all know is 20/20, and lambasted the JFF for firing Barnes, because as he put it Barnes would not have selected these out of shape players, he would've stuck to the players he was training, which we all remembered were the home based crew he is tossing aside today.
I wouldn't attribute anything the USA has accomplished to anything having to do with the UK.
I agree the bulk of their effective players came out of the MLS. That's why I told RIC that in any league you'll find national players and national rucks.
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Their most influential players don't play in the UK.
But now they do, except for Donovan....
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Dempsey is usually a joke when it comes to his play with the national team and without a strong leader like Donovan and Bocanegra, Dempsey would be a big distraction, particularly in his earlier days. As far as Howard is concern he could play in a corner league and he would be the same.
Quote:
PELE, this is disrespect, you don't have to like DEMPSEY style of play, but after all he plays in the EPL and start as well. He has quality to his game, and either scored or assist on some of USA important goals. He's a proven starter for the USA a tireless worker, give the man some credit.
[quote=pelepapa] Ric always try to make this argument that the UK is having this huge improvement on CONCACAF players and I am yet to see this evidence. A lot of players leave CONCACAF for England and other major leagues in Eurpoe and come back more rubbish than when they left.
England and Europe are taking talent out of CONCACAF, they are not creating talent for CONCACAF, don't get it twisted.
I don't know about the coming back rubbish talk, maybe lower league players, because OMAR DALEY, JERMAINE JOHNSON, and a few others plying their trade in the lower leagues has being in poor form for us, and maybe won't be invited back on this team.
In the EPL and the CHAMPIONSHIP FULLER & BIBI had bode well for us, CAMPBell RYCE in LEAGUE ONE also is a formidable attacker.
Yes EPL & othere take talent from this side of the pond, they did not develop them.
Blame it on Ric. His argument is so convoluted that trying to unwind it might put in a position where it appears you are saying what you are not saying.
Dempsey is a wonderful talent and a tireless contributor to the USA efforts, but he is no leader and if the USA proclaimed him the leader solely on the basis that he is succeeding in the big EPL, as Ric obviously would've done, they would be making a big mistake.
All these years Dempsey has been in the EPL can you say he is doing things now that he wouldn't be doing if he had stayed in MLS? Nothing pops out at me. That's my contradiction to Ric's belief that the EPL is this craddle for developing football players.
I wouldn't attribute anything the USA has accomplished to anything having to do with the UK.
I agree the bulk of their effective players came out of the MLS. That's why I told RIC that in any league you'll find national players and national rucks.
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Their most influential players don't play in the UK.
But now they do, except for Donovan....
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Dempsey is usually a joke when it comes to his play with the national team and without a strong leader like Donovan and Bocanegra, Dempsey would be a big distraction, particularly in his earlier days. As far as Howard is concern he could play in a corner league and he would be the same.
Quote:
PELE, this is disrespect, you don't have to like DEMPSEY style of play, but after all he plays in the EPL and start as well. He has quality to his game, and either scored or assist on some of USA important goals. He's a proven starter for the USA a tireless worker, give the man some credit.
[quote=pelepapa] Ric always try to make this argument that the UK is having this huge improvement on CONCACAF players and I am yet to see this evidence. A lot of players leave CONCACAF for England and other major leagues in Eurpoe and come back more rubbish than when they left.
England and Europe are taking talent out of CONCACAF, they are not creating talent for CONCACAF, don't get it twisted.
I don't know about the coming back rubbish talk, maybe lower league players, because OMAR DALEY, JERMAINE JOHNSON, and a few others plying their trade in the lower leagues has being in poor form for us, and maybe won't be invited back on this team.
In the EPL and the CHAMPIONSHIP FULLER & BIBI had bode well for us, CAMPBell RYCE in LEAGUE ONE also is a formidable attacker.
Yes EPL & othere take talent from this side of the pond, they did not develop them.
Blame it on Ric. His argument is so convoluted that trying to unwind it might put in a position where it appears you are saying what you are not saying.
Dempsey is a wonderful talent and a tireless contributor to the USA efforts, but he is no leader and if the USA proclaimed him the leader solely on the basis that he is succeeding in the big EPL, as Ric obviously would've done, they would be making a big mistake.
All these years Dempsey has been in the EPL can you say he is doing things now that he wouldn't be doing if he had stayed in MLS? Nothing pops out at me. That's my contradiction to Ric's belief that the EPL is this craddle for developing football players.
Pelepappa...
U a kill mi wid laugh, mi breda
U confuse and contradict u self so bad dat u confuse everbody else and now when dem call u out pon u contradictions...
Is Ric fault !!! ha ha ha.
Leagues don't develop players; clubs do that.
Have the USA's, Mexico's. Jamaica's players who have come to play in Europe improved and become better players ?
Has Chicarito Hernandez improved by playing for Manchester United and become a better player ?
According to you, definitely not.
Lets leave that question to the coaches who will select their squads and let their selections answer the question.
I wouldn't attribute anything the USA has accomplished to anything having to do with the UK.
I agree the bulk of their effective players came out of the MLS. That's why I told RIC that in any league you'll find national players and national rucks.
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Their most influential players don't play in the UK.
But now they do, except for Donovan....
Originally Posted By: pelepapa
Dempsey is usually a joke when it comes to his play with the national team and without a strong leader like Donovan and Bocanegra, Dempsey would be a big distraction, particularly in his earlier days. As far as Howard is concern he could play in a corner league and he would be the same.
Quote:
PELE, this is disrespect, you don't have to like DEMPSEY style of play, but after all he plays in the EPL and start as well. He has quality to his game, and either scored or assist on some of USA important goals. He's a proven starter for the USA a tireless worker, give the man some credit.
[quote=pelepapa] Ric always try to make this argument that the UK is having this huge improvement on CONCACAF players and I am yet to see this evidence. A lot of players leave CONCACAF for England and other major leagues in Eurpoe and come back more rubbish than when they left.
England and Europe are taking talent out of CONCACAF, they are not creating talent for CONCACAF, don't get it twisted.
I don't know about the coming back rubbish talk, maybe lower league players, because OMAR DALEY, JERMAINE JOHNSON, and a few others plying their trade in the lower leagues has being in poor form for us, and maybe won't be invited back on this team.
In the EPL and the CHAMPIONSHIP FULLER & BIBI had bode well for us, CAMPBell RYCE in LEAGUE ONE also is a formidable attacker.
Yes EPL & othere take talent from this side of the pond, they did not develop them.
Blame it on Ric. His argument is so convoluted that trying to unwind it might put in a position where it appears you are saying what you are not saying.
Dempsey is a wonderful talent and a tireless contributor to the USA efforts, but he is no leader and if the USA proclaimed him the leader solely on the basis that he is succeeding in the big EPL, as Ric obviously would've done, they would be making a big mistake.
All these years Dempsey has been in the EPL can you say he is doing things now that he wouldn't be doing if he had stayed in MLS? Nothing pops out at me. That's my contradiction to Ric's belief that the EPL is this craddle for developing football players.
Pelepappa...
U a kill mi wid laugh, mi breda
U confuse and contradict u self so bad dat u confuse everbody else and now when dem call u out pon u contradictions...
Is Ric fault !!! ha ha ha.
Leagues don't develop players; clubs do that.
Have the USA's, Mexico's. Jamaica's players who have come to play in Europe improved and become better players ?
Has Chicarito Hernandez improved by playing for Manchester United and become a better player ?
According to you, definitely not.
Lets leave that question to the coaches who will select their squads and let their selections answer the question.
Happy to provide you a little laugh Ric.
Even your analysis of the conversation is convoluted. There is no contradiction in anything I said, and no one called me out on anything.
I don't really see the Jamaican players play before they go over to Europe, and maybe if you had left your analysis there you would have been spot on, but as to the others my answer is no. What I see from the Mexicans and USA players is a normal trajectory one would expect from them based on years of experience, nothing special to attribute to the UK. Many of them actually regressed from the level of play they displayed prior to going to England.
Chicharrito is in the middle of his FIRST year in the UK, yet you shamelessly want to attribute his success to United, as if he came out of their academy or something. You mek more sense if you attribute his current success to the English air than to United. Lets see what other wrinkles he adds to his game in the years to come, then we can talk.
If Beckham had mashed up the MLS by the middle of his first year would you likewise say the MLS really improved his skills?
