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#1650 - 08/22/01 04:44 PM
Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
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Barry Hayles scored in the 70th minute...
For the Manu massive...
Manchester United, after narrowly escaping Fulham at home on Sunday, is getting their asses kicked at Blackburn -
Scores (late in the second half)
Blackburn 2 ManU 1
Note ManU dropped both Neville and Jaap Stam.
Fergie just realize that Stam was no good....
Oh..seems like Yorke made the bench in this game...good luck to him
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#1651 - 08/22/01 04:47 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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The general from France - Louis Saha just scored. Fulham 2 Sunderland 0.
Fulham is going to run the Premier RED this season...
with being Louis Saha top scorer....
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#1652 - 08/22/01 04:50 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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ManU 2 Blackburn 2 80 mins gone
David Beckham scored 2 goals...BUT unfortunately one of the goals was against Barthez.
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#1654 - 08/22/01 05:40 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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reddevil
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Registered: 02/21/01
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United escaped this time!!! They looked awful in the back and Barthez almost gave two or three goals away by fooling around outside his area. Van Nistelroy was not a factor. Good showing for Blackburn, they shouldn't have too many problems staying up.
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#1655 - 08/23/01 07:00 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Chez
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Registered: 02/21/01
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Originally posted by Double B:
Fergie just realize that Stam was no good....
I canonly assume your either joking or severly misguided.
Jaap Stam was rested (not dropped). Fergie played Brown and Johnsen to see other defensive pairings. If they were playing Arsenal or Leeds, Stam would have been playing
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#1656 - 08/23/01 09:50 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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CHISEL
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Registered: 03/26/01
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Chez,
I read a quote from Alex Ferguson where he said they were dropped because of the fact that they continually alow guys to get in behind them down the middle. Stam was dropped and I am not surprised. Did anyone see Ryan Giggs testimonial against Celtic. It showed how week the United defence is and also how good a team Celtic is. Yes, I did not make a mistake there, Celtic is a very good team that plays beautiful football. If they were in the premiership they would finish somewhere in the top five...
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#1657 - 08/23/01 10:08 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Chez
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Originally posted by CHISEL:
Chez,
I read a quote from Alex Ferguson where he said they were dropped because of the fact that they continually alow guys to get in behind them down the middle. Stam was dropped and I am not surprised. Did anyone see Ryan Giggs testimonial against Celtic. It showed how week the United defence is and also how good a team Celtic is. Yes, I did not make a mistake there, Celtic is a very good team that plays beautiful football. If they were in the premiership they would finish somewhere in the top five...
I must correct or explain myself. I forgot that I was talking with people who use different terminology. To me, "dropped" is the equivalent of being left out of the side completely.
Therefore, Walter Boyd was "dropped"
Sir Alex Ferguson is a ruthless SOB when he's ready and not picking Stam for one or two games is his way of saying "You can do better and if you don't I won't pick you"
He "dropped" Beckham not so long ago too.
Stam will, I'm sure, along with Brown or even with Johnsen and Brown at rught back, be playing a lot of games this season.
Let's remember he has been voted the best defender in the UEFA Champuons League twice and won Dutch Player of the Year (for a defender that's good), yet Double B thinks he's no good.
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#1658 - 08/23/01 10:08 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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Misguided???
I would not use that word that loosely if I were you. I do my research before making a post.
Are you the new manager for Manchester United now? Where is your source to back up your claim that Stam was being rested and not dropped? Does it make sense to you that a team playing its second league (first away) game would rest their most senior defendor if he was not injury. Rest?? Why would you want to rest a player after one match?
Here are my reasons why I believe he was dropped and not rested :
Reason number 1
Ferguson said: 'I suppose lasting four minutes was an improvement on the Charity Shield when we were behind after only two. It is the nature of the team at the moment that
there is a casualness about our defending. There is no edge to it and it is going to have to improve at Blackburn on Wednesday.
'Our defending is a concern to me because there is a sluggishness, a lack of awareness
that is costing us. It's not as if teams are ripping us apart with slick passing movements.
They are simply playing their way through us and making us pay.
We gave ourselves a fright and there will be more to come if we continue like that.
'We have a natural ability to score goals and that got us out of jail. It is a great quality to have but we will get caught out one day playing like that. We are better than that and are going to have to work on getting our balance and concentration right.
'It happens from time to time that we start the season slowly and get over it. But it is still a concern that there is so little awareness at the back. It is not down to any individual. It is a collective thing.'
Reason number 2
Sir Alex Ferguson may react to Manchester United's defensive crisis by playing captain
Roy Keane in the centre of defence alongside Jaap Stam at Blackburn.
The United boss was furious about the shipping of two goals at home to Fulham on Sunday and he may ask Keane, who returns from suspension, to act as 'fireman' by taking on an unfamiliar role at Ewood Park.
Keane missed the win over Fulham as he completed a four-match suspension.
Ferguson is expected to make changes to his defence and there is an outside chance
that Keane could play in the back four alongside Jaap Stam with Gary Neville reverting to a full-back role.
Another option for the United boss is to bring in Wes Brown and he could also have Ronny Johnsen in the squad after recovering from a training injury.
reason number 3
Jaap Stam remained unrepentant over the furore caused by his book revelations
yesterday and insisted: 'My conscience is clear.'
The former PSV Eindhoven defender has risked a furious backlash from Sir Alex Ferguson by divulging details of a secret meeting in an Amsterdam apartment prior to his 10.75million move to Old Trafford.
With PSV unaware of any interest from United at that stage, the disclosure left Ferguson facing possible disciplinary action from football's authorities and could have led to a damaging rift between the fiery Manchester United manager and his senior defender.
Reason number 4
Ruud van Nistelrooy has needed just one week to make a firm impression on English
football. Unfortunately for Manchester United, while one half of their Dutch double act is getting noticed for scoring goals, the other is conspicuous by giving them away.
Jaap Stam was too busy being dragged from penalty box to corner flag by Louis Saha to see much of what Van Nistelrooy was doing at the opposite end of the pitch during Sunday's 3-2 win over Fulham.
Luckily for Stam, his Holland team-mate's two goals were enough to ensure that the champions' title defence did not begin ignominiously. After United manager Sir Alex Ferguson condemned the sloppy way United twice fell behind as 'too casual,' Stam refused to make excuses.
He said: 'It's great to have finally kicked off the new season proper, but I've got to admit I was less than pleased with the way we performed defensively. It simply wasn't acceptable to concede two goals the way we did, and we will have to be a lot sharper at the back against Blackburn on Wednesday night.
'We practically gifted Fulham their two goals and, although Saha took his chances very
well, he shouldn't have found that kind of space in the first place. In the end, we were
relieved to get off to a winning start but we were far from content with the way we played.
'Standards at Old Trafford are always phenomenally high and we didn't live up to them.
Fulham deserve some credit, but we have to accept our play wasn't up to scratch at times.
It's still early in the season and there's no need to panic, but we must improve.'
The pairing of Gary Neville and Stam in the middle was shown to be shaky last season,
with the England defender never appearing as comfortable in the central berth as he is on
the flank.
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#1659 - 08/23/01 10:26 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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Chez:
Did not notice that you corrected yourself.
A player is 'dropped' for a specfic match when he does not make the first team or the bench for that match. You may define it as 'rested', but to us if you are not on the team you are 'dropped'.
Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Stam wasn't a good defendor, I am just saying that he is nolonger the best at ManU as most people think and that his best days are behind him.
I am sick and tired of hearing commentators making silly comments like. 'Where will ManU find a good defendor to work with Stam?'.
I can't wait to see Bibi and Teddy run some balls around that big clumsy SOB.
I agree with Fergie, drop him if he is not performing. Maybe Clovis can learn a thing or two from Fergie.
[This message has been edited by Double B (edited 08-23-2001).]
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#1660 - 08/23/01 10:26 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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speng
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Registered: 05/30/01
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Is Barry Hayles recalled to the squad?
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#1661 - 08/23/01 10:36 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Chez
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Originally posted by Double B:
Misguided???
I would not use that word that loosely if I were you. I do my research before making a post.
Never said you didn't
Are you the new manager for Manchester United now?
I wish! That £2M a year would come in handy!!
Where is your source to back up your claim that Stam was being rested and not dropped?
A rest, in the footballing sense, does not always symbolise fatigue. In hindsight maybe I should have used the word demoted. If you understand how Fergie works, you'll see that what he has given Stam is a kick up the backside. This is something he's given many other players.
Reason number 1
Ferguson said: 'I suppose lasting four minutes was an improvement on the Charity Shield when we were behind after only two. It is the nature of the team at the moment that there is a casualness about our defending. There is no edge to it and it is going to have to improve at Blackburn on Wednesday.
'Our defending is a concern to me because there is a sluggishness, a lack of awareness
that is costing us. It's not as if teams are ripping us apart with slick passing movements.
They are simply playing their way through us and making us pay.
We gave ourselves a fright and there will be more to come if we continue like that.
'We have a natural ability to score goals and that got us out of jail. It is a great quality to have but we will get caught out one day playing like that. We are better than that and are going to have to work on getting our balance and concentration right.
'It happens from time to time that we start the season slowly and get over it. But it is still a concern that there is so little awareness at the back. It is not down to any individual. It is a collective thing.'
And they played on Wed night with the same frailities at the back WITHOUT Stam. In the Charity Shield, it was Keane who gave away the penalty and a Stam slip, on a slippery surface, that allowed Owen to make a fool of Gary Neville
Look what you posted
'It happens from time to time that we start the season slowly and get over it. But it is still a concern that there is so little awareness at the back. It is not down to any individual. Itis a collective thing.'
So it's not down to any individual and everyone knows that Man United start slow.
Reason number 2
Sir Alex Ferguson may react to Manchester United's defensive crisis by playing captain
Roy Keane in the centre of defence alongside Jaap Stam at Blackburn.
The United boss was furious about the shipping of two goals at home to Fulham on Sunday and he may ask Keane, who returns from suspension, to act as 'fireman' by taking on an unfamiliar role at Ewood Park.
Keane missed the win over Fulham as he completed a four-match suspension.
Ferguson is expected to make changes to his defence and there is an outside chance
that Keane could play in the back four alongside Jaap Stam with Gary Neville reverting to a full-back role.
Another option for the United boss is to bring in Wes Brown and he could also have Ronny Johnsen in the squad after recovering from a training injury.
So he wants to put Roy Keane beside who? Who?
Jaap Stam!
But Jaap Stam is no good and has been dropped.
reason number 3
Jaap Stam remained unrepentant over the furore caused by his book revelations
yesterday and insisted: 'My conscience is clear.'
The former PSV Eindhoven defender has risked a furious backlash from Sir Alex Ferguson by divulging details of a secret meeting in an Amsterdam apartment prior to his 10.75million move to Old Trafford.
With PSV unaware of any interest from United at that stage, the disclosure left Ferguson facing possible disciplinary action from football's authorities and could have led to a damaging rift between the fiery Manchester United manager and his senior defender.
Oh! So Fergie has "dropped" him because of revelations in his book. I thought it was because he was no good. Make up your mind, which one is it?
Reason number 4
Ruud van Nistelrooy has needed just one week to make a firm impression on English
football. Unfortunately for Manchester United, while one half of their Dutch double act is getting noticed for scoring goals, the other is conspicuous by giving them away.
Jaap Stam was too busy being dragged from penalty box to corner flag by Louis Saha to see much of what Van Nistelrooy was doing at the opposite end of the pitch during Sunday's 3-2 win over Fulham.
Luckily for Stam, his Holland team-mate's two goals were enough to ensure that the champions' title defence did not begin ignominiously. After United manager Sir Alex Ferguson condemned the sloppy way United twice fell behind as 'too casual,' Stam refused to make excuses.
He said: 'It's great to have finally kicked off the new season proper, but I've got to admit I was less than pleased with the way we performed defensively. It simply wasn't acceptable to concede two goals the way we did, and we will have to be a lot sharper at the back against Blackburn on Wednesday night.
'We practically gifted Fulham their two goals and, although Saha took his chances very well, he shouldn't have found that kind of space in the first place. In the end, we were relieved to get off to a winning start but we were far from content with the way we played.
'Standards at Old Trafford are always phenomenally high and we didn't live up to them.
Fulham deserve some credit, but we have to accept our play wasn't up to scratch at times.
It's still early in the season and there's no need to panic, but we must improve.'
The pairing of Gary Neville and Stam in the middle was shown to be shaky last season,
with the England defender never appearing as comfortable in the central berth as he is on
the flank.
The pairing of Stam and G.Neville has looked shaky, yet they mention it is Neville who does not appear comfortable. Stam was being dragged about because he was doing his work and covering Neville's too.
Man U are after another defender. However, after spending so much and the closeness to the Champions League it looks like they won't get one.
This is his psychologial wy of saying Stam needs to buckle up his game as he's the man upon which the defence lies on.
I'm not saying he's been his usual self, he has been below par, but you said:
Fergie just realize that Stam was no good....
He's a brillant centre half and Man U could sell him for more money than they bought him.
[This message has been edited by Chez (edited 08-23-2001).]
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#1662 - 08/23/01 10:44 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Chez
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Registered: 02/21/01
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Originally posted by Double B:
Did not notice that you corrected yourself.
A player is 'dropped' for a specfic match when he does not make the first team or the bench for that match. You may define it as 'rested', but to us if you are not on the team you are 'dropped'.
I define dropped as beyond even consideration
Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Stam wasn't a good defendor, I am just saying that he is nolonger the best at ManU as most people think and that his best days are behind him.
Totally disagree so then who's better. Which THREE centre halves (Two to play and on on the subs bench) do they have that can keep him from even getting on the bench
I am sick and tired of hearing commentators making silly comments like. 'Where will Man U find a good defendor to work with Stam?'.
I find nothing wrong those comments
I can't wait to see Bibi and Teddy run some balls around that big clumsy SOB.
Me too but out of a willingness to see Bibi do well and not Stam to do badly. BTW which team in the EPL do you support?
I agree with Fergie, drop him if he is not performing. Maybe Clovis can learn a thing or two from Fergie.
He'll drop anyone and Clovis can learn more than two things from Fergie he could learn a thousand.
[This message has been edited by Chez (edited 08-23-2001).]
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#1663 - 08/23/01 11:35 AM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 3793
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Come on Chez, do better than that.
You need to read between the lines.
Don't just read the words and take them literally.
For example :
reason number 3
Jaap Stam remained unrepentant over the furore caused by his book revelations
yesterday and insisted: 'My conscience is clear.'
The former PSV Eindhoven defender has risked a furious backlash from Sir Alex Ferguson by
divulging details of a secret meeting in an Amsterdam apartment prior to his 10.75million
move to Old Trafford.
With PSV unaware of any interest from United at that stage, the disclosure left Ferguson
facing possible disciplinary action from football's authorities and could have led to a damaging rift between the fiery Manchester United manager and his senior defender.
Don't you see that with all the attention that Stam is getting in the English League that this has made him become so cocky that he decided to take on his own manager in his book. He probably foolishly believe that ManU cannot do without him. Fergie could not drop him because of this. This incident only help to remove the blinkers from over Fergie's eyes where he (Stam)is concerned.
I also wrote :
'It happens from time to time that we start the season slowly and get over it. But it is still a concern that there is so little awareness at the back. It is not down to any individual. It is a collective thing.'
Do you really expect Ferguson to come out and tell the media that Jaap Stam is single handedly responsible for all ManU defensive mistakes? How much would he sell him for after saying that? What good would that have done to the player's confidence?
He has to blame it on the entire unit even if it was entirely Jaap's fault. Jaap knows that he is responsible and Fergie doesn't have to call his name in public. He will call him privately and tell him his mind though because he is the most senior defendor and should be able to command his troops around there just like how Keane does in midfield.
your wrote:
So he wants to put Roy Keane beside who? Who?
Jaap Stam!
But Jaap Stam is no good and has been dropped.
Again Chez, you need to read between the lines. Don't you see that this is an effort to use Keane to resurrect Jaap's career. Anyways, neither Keane or Stam end up playing at the back. This was obviously one of the options that Fergie had in mind before the Blackburn's game. Wondering whether it would help his failing defense if he put Keane (his energized bunny) around there.
Fergie knows that Keane would certainly ensure that Stam does what he suppose to do if he was playing along side him but could not risk moving him from midfield.
He eventually decided against playing Stam and Neville and went with Brown.
Don't be surprised if Keane is lined up at the back in some of the games to come.
I did not see the match against Blackburn but from all indications and reports it does not seems like Jaap and company could make any difference as Barthez was not at his best and midfield was not playing very well.
This is his psychologial wy of saying Stam needs to buckle up his game as he's the man upon which the defence lies on.
I do agree with this statement. But can he do it? Does he still have it in him? I guess we will have to wait and see.
Peace.
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#1664 - 08/23/01 12:36 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 3793
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Chez:
I do believe that we both agreed that Stam is not playing is best football at the moment.
We differ:
Because you believe that he will get back to his old self and I believe that he has lost it forever.
Answer to your Questions:
I was a Liverpool supporter for years until they gave Johnny Barnes a raw deal.
I started supporting Manchester United two years ago because Dwight Yorke plays for them. I relished the idea that the most lethal strike partnership in England was two black men - Cole and Yorke.
You should realize by now that I support any team that gives black players a break. That is why I like Arsenal now.
I am now a Bolton's fan but I have to be realistic. While I believe that they (Bolton) may stay up, I know that they are going to have a long and difficult season.
I believe that Brown is much better than Stam . If only he can stay healthy.
You cannot compare the others (Neville and company) with Stam because they play different defensive positions.
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#1665 - 08/23/01 12:49 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Chez
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 3468
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Originally posted by Double B:
Chez:
I do believe that we both agreed that Stam is not playing is best football at the moment.
We differ:
Because you believe that he will get back to his old self and I believe that he has lost it forever.
I gathered that from your posts and i agree with your analysis of our difference were Stam is concerned. I don't believe he has fully recovered from the injury that saw him miss the first half more or less of last season.
I was a Liverpool supporter for years until they gave Johnny Barnes a raw deal.
I started supporting Manchester United two years ago because Dwight Yorke plays for them. I relished the idea that the most lethal strike partnership in England was two black men - Cole and Yorke.
You should realize by now that I support any team that gives black players a break. That is why I like Arsenal now.
I am now a Bolton's fan but I have to be realistic. While I believe that they (Bolton) may stay up, I know that they are going to have a long and difficult season.
Here we differ again as I support ANy side that attempts to play good football.
You change your side more than me change my Tv channell!! LOL . Only kidding!! 
I believe that Brown is much better than Stam . If only he can stay healthy.
I believe Brwon is on his way to be but is not there yet.
You cannot compare the others (Neville and company) with Stam because they play different defensive positions.
You CAN compare Stam with Johnsen., may, Silvestre and Gary Neville because they have all at times played games at centre half for Man U.
Silvestre did it for most of his first season.
Johnsen IS a centre half. He's returning from LONGGGGGG term injury!
Neville has played over 20 games and started at centre half with Brown last season
David May is crap.
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#1666 - 08/23/01 05:19 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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gem
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God Ive not seen so many quotes in my life!
I dont really want to get into this but I believe in the sayin, mean what u say, say what u mean"!
XX1LOVEBIBIX
Come on u whites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I have 2 say is,
We r top of the League say we r top of the league!
[This message has been edited by gem (edited 08-23-2001).]
_________________________
XX1LOVEBIBIXX
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#1667 - 08/26/01 03:09 PM
Re: Fulham vs Sunderland - Barry Hayles scores
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Double B_dup1
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Hey Chez,
I know that this topic is stale but I have to bring the rest of the ites dem up to date.
This is the latest on Stam:
Manchester United defender Jaap Stam has signed a four-year contract with Lazio, according to reports in Italy.
Italian television station RAI 2 reported on Sunday that Lazio director Massimo Cragnotti has wrapped up a deal to bring the 29-year-old Dutch international to Serie A.
Stam will be unveiled at a news conference in Rome on Monday.
The former PSV Eindhoven ace said: "This has come out of the blue, but it's true. United have accepted an offer from the Italian club this weekend.
"I have never wanted to leave but United have agreed a fee with Lazio and it seems both sides are eager to discuss a transfer.
"I have no choice but to consider my options. Lazio are now free to talk to me and we will see what happens over the next few days," he told a Sunday newspaper.
The Italians are believed to have made their move at Thursday's Champions League draw in Monaco when officials from the Serie A side's camp approached United chief executive Peter Kenyon.
Stam's UK agent Mike Williams told Sky Sports News: "This has come as a surprise, but if Manchester United are willing to listen to offers I'm sure there will be plenty of other teams interested in the services of a world-class defender."
But Williams denied the move comes as a result of Stam's controversial autobiography.
"It is a football-related decision and I have a direct assurance from the club it has no bearing on the book whatsoever," he said.
France World Cup winner Laurent Blanc of Inter Milan is favourite to replace Stam at Old Trafford.
Stam, who arrived at United in 1998 from PSV Eindhoven in a £10.75million deal, was dropped for the midweek draw with Blackburn amid claims Ferguson had axed him over comments made in his book. He has also been omitted from the squad for today's trip to Aston Villa.
Now it seems United are set to recoup some of the £47million they paid out in the summer for Juan Veron and Ruud van Nistelrooy
Chez wrote.....
Jaap Stam was rested (not dropped). Fergie played Brown and Johnsen to see other defensive pairings. If they were playing Arsenal or Leeds, Stam would have been playing
Well Chez it seems like you were wrong my friend
Chez wrote...
I must correct or explain myself. I forgot that I was talking with people who use different terminology. To me, "dropped" is the equivalent of being left out of the side completely.
Therefore, Walter Boyd was "dropped" [/qoute]
Wrong again.....
[quote] Chez wrote...
The pairing of Stam and G.Neville has looked shaky, yet they mention it is Neville who does not appear comfortable. Stam was being dragged about because he was doing his work and covering Neville's too.
Wrong again friend....Gary Neville is still at Old Trafford
Chez wrote...
This is his psychologial wy of saying Stam needs to buckle up his game as he's the man upon which the defence lies on.
Wrong again friend....
Fergie, you are a genious!! You were able to get £18M for a piece of crap...just for not critizing him in the media. Now you can use that money and get two good defendors.
Maybe Manchester United should try and sign Pepe...He is probably worth only about £1M and probably could do a better job than Stam.
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