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#146897 - 12/28/09 08:04 AM Is the Bible God's word?
Tman
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Is the Bible God’s word?
by Ahmed Deedat

Chapter one
What they say
Christians confess
Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian evangelical mission in the world, answering the question — "is the bible the word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: it is human, yet divine. He says on page 17:
"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men."
Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The call of the minaret": "not so the new testament3 . . . there is condensation and editing; 4 there is choice, reproduction and witness. The gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history."
If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? no! but the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make their readers believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable 5 word of God." their semantic gymnastics — equivocating, and playing with words — is amazing!
1. out of ignorance.
2. the Bible is not just a book. It is a selection and compilation of many books.
3. as opposed to the Qur'an.
4. another word for interpolating.
5. indisputable.
Both these doctors of religion are telling us in the clearest language humanly possible that the Bible is the handiwork of man, all the while pretending that the are proving to the contrary. An old Arab saying goes: "if such are the priests, God bless the congregation."

With this sort of drive, the hot-gospeller and the bible-thumper is "inspired" to harry the "heathen." 1 a theological student — a not-yet-qualified young evangelist — from the University of Witwatersrand, became a frequent visitor to the Newtown mosque in Johannesburg, with the "noble" thought of "witnessing"2 to the members of its congregation. When I was introduced to him, (and having learnt his purpose), I invited him to lunch at my brother's residence — a stone's-throw from the mosque. While discussing the authenticity of the Bible over the dinner table and sensing his stubborn dogmatism, I put out a feeler: "your professor Geyser, (the head of the department of theology) does not believe the Bible to be the word of God." Without the slightest surprise he answered, "I know." Now I personally had no knowledge of the professor's conviction about the Bible. I had only assumed so from a controversy which raged around him about the "divinity of Christ." 3 He had taken issue with the orthodox believers on this point some years ago. I continued further, saying, "your lecturer does not believe the Bible as being God's word." The young evangelist, responded again, "I know" but he continued this time-with the words, "but I believe that it is the word of God!" there is no real remedy for such people. Even Jesus bewailed this sickness: "... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)
Al-Qur'an, the holy book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:
“… deaf, dumb and blind, they will not return to the path.” Qur’an 2:18

These pages are now addressed to those sincerely humble souls, who are genuinely interested in seeking the light of God, and who wish to be guided by it. As for the other, with a sickness in their souls, the facts presented herein can only increase the disease of their hearts.”
1. see "How lost are the heathen?" by the same Moody Press of Dr. Scroggie.
2. when the Christian talks of "witnessing" he means propagating, proselytizng, converting.
3. this subject is dealt extensively in the book — "Christ in Islam"

Chapter two
The Muslims' standpoint
Presumptuous Christians
Whether Catholic, Protestant or a "cultist," of the thousand -and - one - sects - and - denominations-of-Christianity, never will you find a missionary who will not, prima facie, presuppose that his potential convert accepts his "Holy Bible" as the book of final authority on every religious opinion. The only answer the prospective proselyte has is to quote verses from the Bible which are contradictory to the missionary's or debate their interpretations.
When the Muslim proves his point from the Christian's own holy scripture, and when the professional priest, parson or predikant cannot refute the arguments — the inevitable Christian evasion is — "do you accept the Bible as God's word? on the face of it, the question seems to be an easy one, but a simple "yes" or "no" cannot be given as an answer. You see, one has first to explain one's position. But the Christian will not give one the opportunity. He gets impatient. "answer — 'yes or no!' " he insists. The Jews did the same to Jesus (PBUH) two thousand years ago, except that surprisingly he was not strait-jacketed, as is the fashion today!
The reader will readily agree that things are not always either black or white. Between these two extremes there are various shades of grey. If you say "yes" to his question, then it would mean that you are prepared to swallow everything hook, line and sinker, from Genesis to Revelation from his Bible. If you respond with a "no" he quickly unhooks himself from the facts you have presented, and rallies support from his co-religionists in the audience with; "you see, this man does not believe in the Bible! what right has he to expound his case from our book?" With this hydra-like somersault he rests content that he has safely evaded the issue. What is the muballigh1to do? He has to explain his position vis-a-vis the Bible, as he ought to do.
1. muballigh: the propagator of Islam

Three grades of evidence
We muslims have no hesitation in acknowledging that in the Bible, there are three different kinds of witnessing recognizable without any need of specialized training. These are:
1. you will be able to recognize in the Bible what may be described as "the word of God."
2. you will also be able to discern what can be described as the "words of a prophet of God."
3. and you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnessess or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay. As such they are the "words of a historian"
You do not have to hunt for examples of these different types of evidences in the Bible. The following quotations will make the position crystal clear:
The first type:
a) I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in ... and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)
(b) I even, I am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11)
(c) "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else." (Isaiah 45:22)
Note the first person pronoun singular (highlighted in bold) in the above references, and without any difficulty you will agree that the statements seem to have the sound of being God's word.

The second type:
(a) "Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying eli, eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)
(b) "and Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, hear, o Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)
(c) "and Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).
Even a child will be able to affirm that: Jesus "cried" Jesus "answered" and Jesus "said" are the words of the one to whom they are attributed, i.e. the words of a prophet of God.

The third type:
"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he, (Jesus) came, if haply he (Jesus) might find anything thereon: and when he (Jesus) came to it, (Jesus) found nothing but leaves . . ." (Mark 11:13)
The bulk of the Bible is a witnessing of this third kind. These are the words of a third person. Note the bold pronouns. They are not the words of God or of his prophet, but the words of a historian.
For the Muslim it is quite easy to distinguish the above types of evidence, because he also has them in his own faith. But of the followers of the different religions, he is the most fortunate in this that his various records are contained in separate books!
One: the first kind — the word of God — is found in a book called the Holy Qur’an.
Two: the second kind — the words of the prophet of God, (Muhummed, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are recorded in the books of tradition called the hadith.
Three: evidence of the third kind abounds in different volume of Islamic history, written by some of high integrity and learning, and others of lesser trustworthiness, but the Muslim advisedly keeps his books in separate volumes!
The Muslim keeps the above three types of evidence jealously apart, in their proper gradations of authority. He never equates them. On the other hand, the "holy Bible" contains a motley type of literature, which composes the embarrassing kind, the sordid, and the obscene — all under the same cover — a Christian is forced to concede equal spiritual import and authority to all, and is thus unfortunate in this regard.

Chapter three
The multiple Bible versions
It will now be easy for us to analyze a Christian's claim about his holy book.
Separating the wheat from the chaff
Before we scrutinize the various versions, let us clarify our own belief regarding the Books of God. When we say that we believe in the Tauraat, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur'an, what do we really mean? We already know that the holy Qur'an is the infallible word of God, revealed to our holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English), and perfectly preserved and protected from human tampering for the past fourteen hundred years! 1 Even hostile critics of Islam have grudgingly vouched for the purity of the holy Qur'an: "there is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text." — (Sir William Muir)
The Tauraat we Muslims believe in is not the "Torah" of the Jews and the Christians, though the words — one Arabic, the other Hebrew — are the same. We believe that whatever the holy prophet Moses (peace be upon him) preached to his people, was the Revelation from God Almighty, but that Moses was not the author of those "books" attributed to him by the Jews and the Christians. 2
Likewise, we believe that the Zaboor was the Revelation of God granted to Hazrat Dawood (David) (peace be upon him), but that the present Psalms associated with his name are not that revelation. The Christians themselves do not insist that David is the sole author of "his" Psalms.3
1. Whether Muslim or non-Muslim, you do not have lo accept this claim on faith alone. You can verify the fact that al-Qur'an is the word of God. See "al-Quran- the Miracle of Miracles";
2- more evidence later on — "Moses not the author of the biblical "Torah”.
3- later on you’ll read how Christian "brains trust" confess — "author; principally David, though there are other writers."

What about the Injeel? Injeel means the "gospel" or "good news" which Jesus Christ (PBUH) preached during his short ministry. The "gospel" writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
1. "and Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35)
2. "... but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." (Mark 8:35)
3. "... preached the gospel. . ." (Luke 20:1)


The "gospel" is a frequently-used word, but what gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single gospel "according" to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. In his life-time Jesus (PBUH) never wrote a single word, nor did he instruct anyone to do so. What passes off as the "Gospels" today are the works of anonymous hands!
The question before us is: "do you accept that the Bible is God's word?" the question is really in the form of a challenge. The questioner is not simply seeking enlightenment. The question is posed in the spirit of a debate. We have every right to demand in a similar vein — "which Bible are you talking about?", we may ask. "Why, there is only one Bible!" he mutters.

The Catholic Bible
Holding the "Douay" Roman Catholic version of the Bible aloft in my hand, I ask, "do you accept this Bible as the word of God?" for reasons best known to themselves, the Catholic Truth Society have published their version of the Bible in a very short, stumpy form. This version is a very odd proportion of the numerous versions in the market today. The Christian questioner is taken aback. "What Bible is that?" he asks. "Why, I thought you said that there was only one Bible!" I remind him. "Y-e-s," he murmurs hesitantly, "but what version is that?" "Why, would that make any difference?" I enquire. Of course it does, and the professional preacher knows that it does. He is only bluffing with his "one Bible" claim.
The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "Apocrypha" i.e. of doubtful authority. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":
". . . if any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
But who cares! They do not really believe! the protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their book of God! the outcasts are:
the book of Judith
the book of Tobias
the book of Baruch
the buck of Esther, etc.
* this disparaging title is given by the orthodox to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and a thousand other sects and denominations with whom they do not see eye to eye.

The Protestant Bible
Sir Winston Churchill has some pertinent things to say about the Authorised Version (AV) of the Protestant Bible, which is also widely known as the "King James Version (KJV)": "The authorised version of the Bible was published in 1611 by the will and command of his majesty King James the 1st whose name it bears till today. The Roman Catholics, believing as they do that the Protestants have mutilated the Book of God, are yet aiding and abetting the Protestant "crime" by forcing their native converts to purchase the Authorised Version (AV) of the Bible, which is the only Bible available in some 1500 languages of the lesser developed nations of the world. The Roman Catholics milk their cows, but the feeding is left to the Protestants! The overwhelming majority of Christians — both Catholics and Protestant — use the authorised (AV) or the King James Version (KJV) as it is alternatively called.”

Glowing tributes
First published, as Sir Winston says, in 1611, and then revised in 1881 (RV), and now re-revised and brought up to date as the revised standard version (RSV) 1952, and now again re-re-revised in 1971 (still RSV for short). Let us see what opinion Christendom has of this most revised Bible, the RSV:-
1. "the finest version which has been produced in the present century." — (Church of England newspaper)
2. "a completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence." — (Times Literary Supplement)
3. "the well-loved characteristics of the Authorised Version combined with a new accuracy of translation." — (Life and Work)
4. "the most accurate and close rendering of the original" — (The Times)
The publishers (Collins) themselves, in their notes on the Bible at the end of their production, say on page 10: "this Bible (RSV), is the product of thirty-two scholars, assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty co-operating denominations." Why all this boasting? To make the gullible public buy their product? All these testimonies convince the purchaser that he is backing the right horse, with the purchaser little suspecting that he is being taken for a ride.

"The world's best seller"
But what about the Authorised Version of the Bible (AV), the "world's best seller?" These revisers, all good salesmen, have some very pretty things to say about it. However, their page iii, paragraph six of the preface of the RSV reads; "the King James Version (alternative description of AV) has with good reason been termed 'the noblest monument of English prose.’ Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for 'its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression ... the music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.’ It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt."
Can you, dear reader, imagine a more magnificent tribute being paid to the "book of books" than the above? I, for one, cannot. Let the believing Christian, now steel himself for the un-kindest blow of all from his own beloved lawyers of religion; for in the very same breath they say: "yet the King James Version has grave defects." and, "that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision . . ." This is straight from the horse's mouth, i.e. the orthodox Christian scholars of "the highest eminence." Another galaxy of doctors of divinity are now required to produce an encyclopaedia explaining the cause of those grave and serious defects in their holy writ and their reasons for eliminating them.
... to be continued , Insa'Allah (God willing)
Chapter 4 50,000 errors in the Bible
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)


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#146899 - 12/28/09 08:30 AM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Tman]
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#146900 - 12/28/09 08:32 AM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: rasputin]
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#146901 - 12/28/09 08:34 AM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: rasputin]
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#146918 - 12/28/09 01:18 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Tman]
Hamilton Israel
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 Originally Posted By: Tman
Is the Bible God’s word?
by Ahmed Deedat

Chapter one
What they say
Christians confess
Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian evangelical mission in the world, answering the question — "is the bible the word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: it is human, yet divine. He says on page 17:
"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men."
Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The call of the minaret": "not so the new testament3 . . . there is condensation and editing; 4 there is choice, reproduction and witness. The gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history."
If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? no! but the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make their readers believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable 5 word of God." their semantic gymnastics — equivocating, and playing with words — is amazing!
1. out of ignorance.
2. the Bible is not just a book. It is a selection and compilation of many books.
3. as opposed to the Qur'an.
4. another word for interpolating.
5. indisputable.
Both these doctors of religion are telling us in the clearest language humanly possible that the Bible is the handiwork of man, all the while pretending that the are proving to the contrary. An old Arab saying goes: "if such are the priests, God bless the congregation."

With this sort of drive, the hot-gospeller and the bible-thumper is "inspired" to harry the "heathen." 1 a theological student — a not-yet-qualified young evangelist — from the University of Witwatersrand, became a frequent visitor to the Newtown mosque in Johannesburg, with the "noble" thought of "witnessing"2 to the members of its congregation. When I was introduced to him, (and having learnt his purpose), I invited him to lunch at my brother's residence — a stone's-throw from the mosque. While discussing the authenticity of the Bible over the dinner table and sensing his stubborn dogmatism, I put out a feeler: "your professor Geyser, (the head of the department of theology) does not believe the Bible to be the word of God." Without the slightest surprise he answered, "I know." Now I personally had no knowledge of the professor's conviction about the Bible. I had only assumed so from a controversy which raged around him about the "divinity of Christ." 3 He had taken issue with the orthodox believers on this point some years ago. I continued further, saying, "your lecturer does not believe the Bible as being God's word." The young evangelist, responded again, "I know" but he continued this time-with the words, "but I believe that it is the word of God!" there is no real remedy for such people. Even Jesus bewailed this sickness: "... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)
Al-Qur'an, the holy book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:
“… deaf, dumb and blind, they will not return to the path.” Qur’an 2:18

These pages are now addressed to those sincerely humble souls, who are genuinely interested in seeking the light of God, and who wish to be guided by it. As for the other, with a sickness in their souls, the facts presented herein can only increase the disease of their hearts.”
1. see "How lost are the heathen?" by the same Moody Press of Dr. Scroggie.
2. when the Christian talks of "witnessing" he means propagating, proselytizng, converting.
3. this subject is dealt extensively in the book — "Christ in Islam"

Chapter two
The Muslims' standpoint
Presumptuous Christians
Whether Catholic, Protestant or a "cultist," of the thousand -and - one - sects - and - denominations-of-Christianity, never will you find a missionary who will not, prima facie, presuppose that his potential convert accepts his "Holy Bible" as the book of final authority on every religious opinion. The only answer the prospective proselyte has is to quote verses from the Bible which are contradictory to the missionary's or debate their interpretations.
When the Muslim proves his point from the Christian's own holy scripture, and when the professional priest, parson or predikant cannot refute the arguments — the inevitable Christian evasion is — "do you accept the Bible as God's word? on the face of it, the question seems to be an easy one, but a simple "yes" or "no" cannot be given as an answer. You see, one has first to explain one's position. But the Christian will not give one the opportunity. He gets impatient. "answer — 'yes or no!' " he insists. The Jews did the same to Jesus (PBUH) two thousand years ago, except that surprisingly he was not strait-jacketed, as is the fashion today!
The reader will readily agree that things are not always either black or white. Between these two extremes there are various shades of grey. If you say "yes" to his question, then it would mean that you are prepared to swallow everything hook, line and sinker, from Genesis to Revelation from his Bible. If you respond with a "no" he quickly unhooks himself from the facts you have presented, and rallies support from his co-religionists in the audience with; "you see, this man does not believe in the Bible! what right has he to expound his case from our book?" With this hydra-like somersault he rests content that he has safely evaded the issue. What is the muballigh1to do? He has to explain his position vis-a-vis the Bible, as he ought to do.
1. muballigh: the propagator of Islam

Three grades of evidence
We muslims have no hesitation in acknowledging that in the Bible, there are three different kinds of witnessing recognizable without any need of specialized training. These are:
1. you will be able to recognize in the Bible what may be described as "the word of God."
2. you will also be able to discern what can be described as the "words of a prophet of God."
3. and you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnessess or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay. As such they are the "words of a historian"
You do not have to hunt for examples of these different types of evidences in the Bible. The following quotations will make the position crystal clear:
The first type:
a) I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in ... and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)
(b) I even, I am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11)
(c) "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else." (Isaiah 45:22)
Note the first person pronoun singular (highlighted in bold) in the above references, and without any difficulty you will agree that the statements seem to have the sound of being God's word.

The second type:
(a) "Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying eli, eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)
(b) "and Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, hear, o Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)
(c) "and Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).
Even a child will be able to affirm that: Jesus "cried" Jesus "answered" and Jesus "said" are the words of the one to whom they are attributed, i.e. the words of a prophet of God.

The third type:
"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he, (Jesus) came, if haply he (Jesus) might find anything thereon: and when he (Jesus) came to it, (Jesus) found nothing but leaves . . ." (Mark 11:13)
The bulk of the Bible is a witnessing of this third kind. These are the words of a third person. Note the bold pronouns. They are not the words of God or of his prophet, but the words of a historian.
For the Muslim it is quite easy to distinguish the above types of evidence, because he also has them in his own faith. But of the followers of the different religions, he is the most fortunate in this that his various records are contained in separate books!
One: the first kind — the word of God — is found in a book called the Holy Qur’an.
Two: the second kind — the words of the prophet of God, (Muhummed, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are recorded in the books of tradition called the hadith.
Three: evidence of the third kind abounds in different volume of Islamic history, written by some of high integrity and learning, and others of lesser trustworthiness, but the Muslim advisedly keeps his books in separate volumes!
The Muslim keeps the above three types of evidence jealously apart, in their proper gradations of authority. He never equates them. On the other hand, the "holy Bible" contains a motley type of literature, which composes the embarrassing kind, the sordid, and the obscene — all under the same cover — a Christian is forced to concede equal spiritual import and authority to all, and is thus unfortunate in this regard.

Chapter three
The multiple Bible versions
It will now be easy for us to analyze a Christian's claim about his holy book.
Separating the wheat from the chaff
Before we scrutinize the various versions, let us clarify our own belief regarding the Books of God. When we say that we believe in the Tauraat, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur'an, what do we really mean? We already know that the holy Qur'an is the infallible word of God, revealed to our holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English), and perfectly preserved and protected from human tampering for the past fourteen hundred years! 1 Even hostile critics of Islam have grudgingly vouched for the purity of the holy Qur'an: "there is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text." — (Sir William Muir)
The Tauraat we Muslims believe in is not the "Torah" of the Jews and the Christians, though the words — one Arabic, the other Hebrew — are the same. We believe that whatever the holy prophet Moses (peace be upon him) preached to his people, was the Revelation from God Almighty, but that Moses was not the author of those "books" attributed to him by the Jews and the Christians. 2
Likewise, we believe that the Zaboor was the Revelation of God granted to Hazrat Dawood (David) (peace be upon him), but that the present Psalms associated with his name are not that revelation. The Christians themselves do not insist that David is the sole author of "his" Psalms.3
1. Whether Muslim or non-Muslim, you do not have lo accept this claim on faith alone. You can verify the fact that al-Qur'an is the word of God. See "al-Quran- the Miracle of Miracles";
2- more evidence later on — "Moses not the author of the biblical "Torah”.
3- later on you’ll read how Christian "brains trust" confess — "author; principally David, though there are other writers."

What about the Injeel? Injeel means the "gospel" or "good news" which Jesus Christ (PBUH) preached during his short ministry. The "gospel" writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
1. "and Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35)
2. "... but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." (Mark 8:35)
3. "... preached the gospel. . ." (Luke 20:1)


The "gospel" is a frequently-used word, but what gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single gospel "according" to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. In his life-time Jesus (PBUH) never wrote a single word, nor did he instruct anyone to do so. What passes off as the "Gospels" today are the works of anonymous hands!
The question before us is: "do you accept that the Bible is God's word?" the question is really in the form of a challenge. The questioner is not simply seeking enlightenment. The question is posed in the spirit of a debate. We have every right to demand in a similar vein — "which Bible are you talking about?", we may ask. "Why, there is only one Bible!" he mutters.

The Catholic Bible
Holding the "Douay" Roman Catholic version of the Bible aloft in my hand, I ask, "do you accept this Bible as the word of God?" for reasons best known to themselves, the Catholic Truth Society have published their version of the Bible in a very short, stumpy form. This version is a very odd proportion of the numerous versions in the market today. The Christian questioner is taken aback. "What Bible is that?" he asks. "Why, I thought you said that there was only one Bible!" I remind him. "Y-e-s," he murmurs hesitantly, "but what version is that?" "Why, would that make any difference?" I enquire. Of course it does, and the professional preacher knows that it does. He is only bluffing with his "one Bible" claim.
The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "Apocrypha" i.e. of doubtful authority. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":
". . . if any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
But who cares! They do not really believe! the protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their book of God! the outcasts are:
the book of Judith
the book of Tobias
the book of Baruch
the buck of Esther, etc.
* this disparaging title is given by the orthodox to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and a thousand other sects and denominations with whom they do not see eye to eye.

The Protestant Bible
Sir Winston Churchill has some pertinent things to say about the Authorised Version (AV) of the Protestant Bible, which is also widely known as the "King James Version (KJV)": "The authorised version of the Bible was published in 1611 by the will and command of his majesty King James the 1st whose name it bears till today. The Roman Catholics, believing as they do that the Protestants have mutilated the Book of God, are yet aiding and abetting the Protestant "crime" by forcing their native converts to purchase the Authorised Version (AV) of the Bible, which is the only Bible available in some 1500 languages of the lesser developed nations of the world. The Roman Catholics milk their cows, but the feeding is left to the Protestants! The overwhelming majority of Christians — both Catholics and Protestant — use the authorised (AV) or the King James Version (KJV) as it is alternatively called.”

Glowing tributes
First published, as Sir Winston says, in 1611, and then revised in 1881 (RV), and now re-revised and brought up to date as the revised standard version (RSV) 1952, and now again re-re-revised in 1971 (still RSV for short). Let us see what opinion Christendom has of this most revised Bible, the RSV:-
1. "the finest version which has been produced in the present century." — (Church of England newspaper)
2. "a completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence." — (Times Literary Supplement)
3. "the well-loved characteristics of the Authorised Version combined with a new accuracy of translation." — (Life and Work)
4. "the most accurate and close rendering of the original" — (The Times)
The publishers (Collins) themselves, in their notes on the Bible at the end of their production, say on page 10: "this Bible (RSV), is the product of thirty-two scholars, assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty co-operating denominations." Why all this boasting? To make the gullible public buy their product? All these testimonies convince the purchaser that he is backing the right horse, with the purchaser little suspecting that he is being taken for a ride.

"The world's best seller"
But what about the Authorised Version of the Bible (AV), the "world's best seller?" These revisers, all good salesmen, have some very pretty things to say about it. However, their page iii, paragraph six of the preface of the RSV reads; "the King James Version (alternative description of AV) has with good reason been termed 'the noblest monument of English prose.’ Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for 'its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression ... the music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.’ It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt."
Can you, dear reader, imagine a more magnificent tribute being paid to the "book of books" than the above? I, for one, cannot. Let the believing Christian, now steel himself for the un-kindest blow of all from his own beloved lawyers of religion; for in the very same breath they say: "yet the King James Version has grave defects." and, "that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision . . ." This is straight from the horse's mouth, i.e. the orthodox Christian scholars of "the highest eminence." Another galaxy of doctors of divinity are now required to produce an encyclopaedia explaining the cause of those grave and serious defects in their holy writ and their reasons for eliminating them.
... to be continued , Insa'Allah (God willing)
Chapter 4 50,000 errors in the Bible


Tman, if you do not believe in the Bible or the God of the Bible you do spend alot of time on this site trying to prove your point.

Usually when one is convinced of what they are about, or who they are, or what they believe -in your case a Muslim- one does not waste time trying to convince others of what they are not; unless one is subconsciously uncertain of their own belief system.

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#146941 - 12/29/09 10:06 AM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Hamilton Israel]
Tman
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Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1257
Loc: London, England

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One is firm in one's beliefs but trying to lead those astray to the right path.
If you can't take the scrutiny your book is coming under then don't read the thread and leave others to make up their own minds.
Or we can engage in a debate about what I post.
Chapter four
Fifty thousand errors
The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "Awake!" magazine dated 8 September, 1957, carried this startling headline — "50000 errors in the Bible?"
While I was still formulating the theme of this booklet, I heard a knock at my door one Sunday morning. I opened the door. A European gentleman stood there, grinning broadly. "Good morning'" he said. "Good morning" I replied. He was offering me his "Awake" and "Watchtower" magazines. Yes, a Jehovah's Witness! If a few had knocked at your door previously, you will recognize them immediately. The most supercilious lot of people who ever knocked at people's doors! I invited him in.
As soon as he settled down, I produced the Awake magazine. Pointing to the monograph at the top of the page, I asked, "is this your's?" He readily recognised his own. I said, "it says: 50 000 errors in the Bible, is it true?" "What's that!" he exclaimed. I repeated, "I said, that it says, that there are 50 000 errors in your Bible." "Where did you get that?" he asked. (this was published 23 years ago, when he was perhaps a little nipper) I said, "leave the fancy talk aside — is this your's?" pointing again to the monograph — "Awake!" he said, "can I have a look?" "Of course," I said. I handed him the page. He started perusing. They (the Jehovah's Witnesses) are trained. They attend classes five times a week in their "kingdom halls." Naturally, they are the fittest missionaries among the thousand -and - one - sects - and - denominations of Christendom. They are taught that when cornered, do not commit yourself to anything, do not open your mouths. Wait for the holy ghost to inspire you with what to say.
I silently kept watching him, while he browsed the page. Suddenly he looked up. He had found it. The "holy ghost" had tickled him. He began, "the article says that "most of those errors have been eliminated." I asked "if most are eliminated, how many remain out of 50000? 5000? 500? 50? even if 50 remain, do you attribute those errors to God?" He was speechless. He excused himself by suggesting that he will come again with some senior member of his church. That will be the day!
If I had this booklet ready, I would have offered him, saying — "I would like to do you a favour, give me your name and address, and your telephone number. I will lend you this booklet — Is the Bible God's Word?" for 90 days. I want a written reply!" If you do this, and a few other Muslims do the same, they and the other missionaries will never darken your doors again. I believe that this publication will prove the most effective talisman to date. Insha-Allah (God willing)!
This cult of Jehovah's Witnesses which is so strong in its condemnation of the orthodox trinitarians, for playing with the "word of God," is itself playing the same game of semantic gymnastics. In the article under review — "50,000 errors in the Bible?" — they say: "there are probably 50,000 errors . . . errors that have crept into the Bible text . . . 50,000 such serious (?) errors… most of those so-called errors... as a whole and the Bible is accurate." (?)
We do not have the time and space to go into the tens of thousands of — grave or minor — defects that the authors of the revised standard version (RSV) have attempted to revise. We leave that privilege to the Christian scholars of the Bible. Here I will endeavour to cast just a cursory glance at a "half-a-dozen" or so of those "minor" changes.
1. "therefore the lord himself shall give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14 - AV)
The indispensable "virgin" in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase "a young woman," which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word which has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and not bethulah which means virgin. This correction is only to be found in the English language translation, as the RSV is only published in this tongue. For the African and the Afrikaner, the Arab and the Zulu, in fact, in the 1 500 other languages of the world, Christians are made to continue to swallow the misnomer "virgin."

Begotten, not made
"Jesus is the only begotten son of God, begotten not made," is an adjunct of the orthodox catechism, leaning for support on the following:
2. for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 - AV)
No priest worth his cloth would fail to quote "the only begotten of the father!" when preaching to a prospective convert. But this fabrication — "begotten" — has now been unceremoniously excised by the Bible revisers, without a word of excuse. They are as silent as church-mice and would not draw the reader's attention to their furtive excision. This blasphemous word "begotten" was another of the many such interpolations in the "Holy Bible." God Almighty condemned this blasphemy in the strongest terms soon after its innovation. He did not wait for 2,000 years for Bible scholars to reveal the fraud: “… and they say: “God most gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, ands the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for God Most Gracious, for it is not consonant with the majesty of God Most Gracious that He should beget a son.” Qur’an 19:88-92

The Muslim world should congratulate the "fifty cooperating denominations" of Christendom and their brains trust the "thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence" for bringing their holy Bible a degree nearer to the Qur-anic truth: “…He (God Almighty) begets not nor is He begotten.”Qur’an 112:3

"Christian mes-a-mathics"
3. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father,
the word, and the holy ghost: and these three are one." (1st epistle of John 5:7 – AV)
This verse is the closest approximation to what the christians call their holy trinity in the encyclopaedia called the Bible. This key-stone of the Christian faith has also been scrapped from the RSV without even a semblance of explanation. It has been a pious fraud all along and well-deservedly has it been expunged in the RSV for the English-speaking people. But for the 1499 remaining language groups of the world who read the Christian concoctions in their mother tongues, the fraud remains. These people will never know the truth until the Day of Judgement. However, we Muslims must again congratulate the galaxy of d.d.’s who have been honest enough to eliminate another lie from the English (RSV) Bible, thus bringing their holy book yet another step closer to the teachings of Islam. For the Holy Qur'an says:”…and don’t say ‘trinity’ desist; it will be better for you, for ALLAH is one God.” Qur’an 4:171

The ascension
One of the most serious of those "grave defects" which the authors of the RSV had tried to rectify concerned the ascension of Christ. There have been only two references in the canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and of John to the most stupendous event in Christianity — of Jesus being taken up into heaven. These two references were obtained in every Bible in every language, prior to 1952, when the RSVfirst appeared.
These were: 4a. "so then the lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God." (Mark 16:19)
4b. "while he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven." (Luke 24:51)
Now please look at RSV 1952, the quotation 4a above ought to appear. You will be shocked to note that Mark 16 ends at verse 8, and after an embarrassing expanse of blank space the missing verses appear in "small print" as a footnote at the bottom of the page. If you can lay your hands on a RSV 1952, you will find the last six words of 4b above, i.e. "and was carried up into heaven" replaced by a tiny "a" to tell you to see the footnote if you please, where you will find these missing words. Every honest Christian has to admit that he does not consider any footnote in any Bible as the word of God. Why should the paid servants of Christianity consign the mightiest miracle of their religion to a mere footnote?

The origin and growth of the English Bible
You will note that all the biblical "versions" prior to the revised version of 1881 were dependent upon the ancient copies — those dating only five or six hundred years after Jesus (PBUH). The revisers of the RSV 1952, were the first Bible scholars who were able to tap the "most ancient copies" fully, dating three and four centuries after Christ. We agree that the closer to the source the more authentic is the document. Naturally "most" ancient deserves credence more than mere "ancient." But not finding a word about Jesus being "taken up" or "carried up" into heaven in the most ancient manuscripts, the Christian fathers expurgated those references from the RSV 1952.



The donkey circus
The above facts are a staggering confession by Christendom that the "inspired" authors of the canonical gospels did not record a single word about the ascension of Jesus- yet these "inspired" authors were unanimous in recording that their lord and saviour rode a donkey into Jerusalem as his mission drew to a close. ". . . and they sat him thereon." (the donkey) (Matt. 21:7)
". . . and he sat upon him." (the donkey) (Mark 11:7)
". . . and they set Jesus thereon." (the donkey) (Luke 19:35)
". . . Jesus ... sat thereon:" (the donkey) (John 12:14)

Could God Almighty have been the author of this incongruous situation — going out of his way to see that all the gospel writers did not miss their footing recording of his "son's" donkey-ride into the holy city — and yet "inspiring" them to black-out the news about his "son's" heavenly flight on the wings of angels?

Not for long!
The hot-gospellers and the bible-thumpers were too slow in catching the joke. By the time they realised that the corner-stone of their preaching — the ascension of Jesus — had been undermined as a result of Christian biblical erudition, the publishers of the RSV had already raked in a net profit of 15, 000,000 dollars! (fifteen million). The propagandists made a big hue and cry, and with the backing of two denominational committees out of the fifty, forced the publishers to re-incorporate the interpolations into the "inspired" word of God in every new publication of the RSV after 1952, the expunged portion was "restored to the text."
It is an old, old game. The Jews and the Christians have been editing their "book of God" from its very inception. The difference between them and the ancient forgerers is that the ancient forgers did not know the art of writing "prefaces" and "footnotes", otherwise they too would have told us as clearly as our modern heroes have about their tampering, and their glib excuses for transmuting forged currency into glittering gold.
"Many proposals for modification were submitted to the committee by individuals and by two denominational committees all of these were given careful attention by the committee.
"Two passages, the longer ending of Mark (16:9-20) . . . and Luke 24:51 are restored to the text."
(Preface — Collins' pages vi and vii)
"Why 'restored'"? Because they had been previously expunged! Why had the references to the ascension expunged in the first place? The most ancient manuscripts had no references to the ascension at all. They were interpolations similar to 1 John 5:7 about the trinity. (refer to the earlier example 3). Why eliminate one and re-instate the other? do not be surprised! by the time you lay your hands on a RSV, the "committee" might also have decided to expunge the whole of their invaluable preface. The Jehovah's Witnesses have already eliminated 27 revealing pages of their foreword to their "new world translation of the Christian Greek scriptures," (this is their way of saying — New Testament).

Allah in the Christian Bible
The Rev. C. I. Scofield, d. d. with a team of 8 consulting editors, also all d.d.’s in the "Scofield Reference Bible" thought it appropriate to spell the Hebrew word "elah" (meaning God) alternatively as "Alah" the Christians had thus swallowed the camel — they seemed to have accepted at last that the name of God is Allah — but were still straining at the gnat by spelling Allah with one "l"! (see Ahmed Deedat website for photographic reproduction of the Bible page showing the word "Alah" preserved for posterity). References were made in public lectures to this fact by the author of this booklet. Believe me, the subsequent "Scofield Reference Bible" has retained word for word the whole commentary of Genesis 1:1, but has, by a clever sleight-of-hand, blotted out the word "Alah" altogether. There is not even a gap where the word "Alah" once used to be. 1 This is in the Bible of the orthodox! one is hard pressed to keep up with their jugglery.
1. see "What is His Name" for more information on this biblical omission of the word Allah, under the section of "now you see it, now you don’t".

...to be continued (Insh"Allah, God willing)
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)


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#146949 - 12/29/09 10:36 AM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Hamilton Israel]
Ric
Forum General


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 2032

content Online
 Originally Posted By: Hamilton Israel
 Originally Posted By: Tman
Is the Bible God’s word?
by Ahmed Deedat

Chapter one
What they say
Christians confess
Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian evangelical mission in the world, answering the question — "is the bible the word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: it is human, yet divine. He says on page 17:
"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men."
Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The call of the minaret": "not so the new testament3 . . . there is condensation and editing; 4 there is choice, reproduction and witness. The gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history."
If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? no! but the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make their readers believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable 5 word of God." their semantic gymnastics — equivocating, and playing with words — is amazing!
1. out of ignorance.
2. the Bible is not just a book. It is a selection and compilation of many books.
3. as opposed to the Qur'an.
4. another word for interpolating.
5. indisputable.
Both these doctors of religion are telling us in the clearest language humanly possible that the Bible is the handiwork of man, all the while pretending that the are proving to the contrary. An old Arab saying goes: "if such are the priests, God bless the congregation."

With this sort of drive, the hot-gospeller and the bible-thumper is "inspired" to harry the "heathen." 1 a theological student — a not-yet-qualified young evangelist — from the University of Witwatersrand, became a frequent visitor to the Newtown mosque in Johannesburg, with the "noble" thought of "witnessing"2 to the members of its congregation. When I was introduced to him, (and having learnt his purpose), I invited him to lunch at my brother's residence — a stone's-throw from the mosque. While discussing the authenticity of the Bible over the dinner table and sensing his stubborn dogmatism, I put out a feeler: "your professor Geyser, (the head of the department of theology) does not believe the Bible to be the word of God." Without the slightest surprise he answered, "I know." Now I personally had no knowledge of the professor's conviction about the Bible. I had only assumed so from a controversy which raged around him about the "divinity of Christ." 3 He had taken issue with the orthodox believers on this point some years ago. I continued further, saying, "your lecturer does not believe the Bible as being God's word." The young evangelist, responded again, "I know" but he continued this time-with the words, "but I believe that it is the word of God!" there is no real remedy for such people. Even Jesus bewailed this sickness: "... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)
Al-Qur'an, the holy book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:
“… deaf, dumb and blind, they will not return to the path.” Qur’an 2:18

These pages are now addressed to those sincerely humble souls, who are genuinely interested in seeking the light of God, and who wish to be guided by it. As for the other, with a sickness in their souls, the facts presented herein can only increase the disease of their hearts.”
1. see "How lost are the heathen?" by the same Moody Press of Dr. Scroggie.
2. when the Christian talks of "witnessing" he means propagating, proselytizng, converting.
3. this subject is dealt extensively in the book — "Christ in Islam"

Chapter two
The Muslims' standpoint
Presumptuous Christians
Whether Catholic, Protestant or a "cultist," of the thousand -and - one - sects - and - denominations-of-Christianity, never will you find a missionary who will not, prima facie, presuppose that his potential convert accepts his "Holy Bible" as the book of final authority on every religious opinion. The only answer the prospective proselyte has is to quote verses from the Bible which are contradictory to the missionary's or debate their interpretations.
When the Muslim proves his point from the Christian's own holy scripture, and when the professional priest, parson or predikant cannot refute the arguments — the inevitable Christian evasion is — "do you accept the Bible as God's word? on the face of it, the question seems to be an easy one, but a simple "yes" or "no" cannot be given as an answer. You see, one has first to explain one's position. But the Christian will not give one the opportunity. He gets impatient. "answer — 'yes or no!' " he insists. The Jews did the same to Jesus (PBUH) two thousand years ago, except that surprisingly he was not strait-jacketed, as is the fashion today!
The reader will readily agree that things are not always either black or white. Between these two extremes there are various shades of grey. If you say "yes" to his question, then it would mean that you are prepared to swallow everything hook, line and sinker, from Genesis to Revelation from his Bible. If you respond with a "no" he quickly unhooks himself from the facts you have presented, and rallies support from his co-religionists in the audience with; "you see, this man does not believe in the Bible! what right has he to expound his case from our book?" With this hydra-like somersault he rests content that he has safely evaded the issue. What is the muballigh1to do? He has to explain his position vis-a-vis the Bible, as he ought to do.
1. muballigh: the propagator of Islam

Three grades of evidence
We muslims have no hesitation in acknowledging that in the Bible, there are three different kinds of witnessing recognizable without any need of specialized training. These are:
1. you will be able to recognize in the Bible what may be described as "the word of God."
2. you will also be able to discern what can be described as the "words of a prophet of God."
3. and you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnessess or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay. As such they are the "words of a historian"
You do not have to hunt for examples of these different types of evidences in the Bible. The following quotations will make the position crystal clear:
The first type:
a) I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in ... and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)
(b) I even, I am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11)
(c) "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else." (Isaiah 45:22)
Note the first person pronoun singular (highlighted in bold) in the above references, and without any difficulty you will agree that the statements seem to have the sound of being God's word.

The second type:
(a) "Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying eli, eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)
(b) "and Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, hear, o Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)
(c) "and Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).
Even a child will be able to affirm that: Jesus "cried" Jesus "answered" and Jesus "said" are the words of the one to whom they are attributed, i.e. the words of a prophet of God.

The third type:
"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he, (Jesus) came, if haply he (Jesus) might find anything thereon: and when he (Jesus) came to it, (Jesus) found nothing but leaves . . ." (Mark 11:13)
The bulk of the Bible is a witnessing of this third kind. These are the words of a third person. Note the bold pronouns. They are not the words of God or of his prophet, but the words of a historian.
For the Muslim it is quite easy to distinguish the above types of evidence, because he also has them in his own faith. But of the followers of the different religions, he is the most fortunate in this that his various records are contained in separate books!
One: the first kind — the word of God — is found in a book called the Holy Qur’an.
Two: the second kind — the words of the prophet of God, (Muhummed, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are recorded in the books of tradition called the hadith.
Three: evidence of the third kind abounds in different volume of Islamic history, written by some of high integrity and learning, and others of lesser trustworthiness, but the Muslim advisedly keeps his books in separate volumes!
The Muslim keeps the above three types of evidence jealously apart, in their proper gradations of authority. He never equates them. On the other hand, the "holy Bible" contains a motley type of literature, which composes the embarrassing kind, the sordid, and the obscene — all under the same cover — a Christian is forced to concede equal spiritual import and authority to all, and is thus unfortunate in this regard.

Chapter three
The multiple Bible versions
It will now be easy for us to analyze a Christian's claim about his holy book.
Separating the wheat from the chaff
Before we scrutinize the various versions, let us clarify our own belief regarding the Books of God. When we say that we believe in the Tauraat, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur'an, what do we really mean? We already know that the holy Qur'an is the infallible word of God, revealed to our holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English), and perfectly preserved and protected from human tampering for the past fourteen hundred years! 1 Even hostile critics of Islam have grudgingly vouched for the purity of the holy Qur'an: "there is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text." — (Sir William Muir)
The Tauraat we Muslims believe in is not the "Torah" of the Jews and the Christians, though the words — one Arabic, the other Hebrew — are the same. We believe that whatever the holy prophet Moses (peace be upon him) preached to his people, was the Revelation from God Almighty, but that Moses was not the author of those "books" attributed to him by the Jews and the Christians. 2
Likewise, we believe that the Zaboor was the Revelation of God granted to Hazrat Dawood (David) (peace be upon him), but that the present Psalms associated with his name are not that revelation. The Christians themselves do not insist that David is the sole author of "his" Psalms.3
1. Whether Muslim or non-Muslim, you do not have lo accept this claim on faith alone. You can verify the fact that al-Qur'an is the word of God. See "al-Quran- the Miracle of Miracles";
2- more evidence later on — "Moses not the author of the biblical "Torah”.
3- later on you’ll read how Christian "brains trust" confess — "author; principally David, though there are other writers."

What about the Injeel? Injeel means the "gospel" or "good news" which Jesus Christ (PBUH) preached during his short ministry. The "gospel" writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
1. "and Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35)
2. "... but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." (Mark 8:35)
3. "... preached the gospel. . ." (Luke 20:1)


The "gospel" is a frequently-used word, but what gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single gospel "according" to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. In his life-time Jesus (PBUH) never wrote a single word, nor did he instruct anyone to do so. What passes off as the "Gospels" today are the works of anonymous hands!
The question before us is: "do you accept that the Bible is God's word?" the question is really in the form of a challenge. The questioner is not simply seeking enlightenment. The question is posed in the spirit of a debate. We have every right to demand in a similar vein — "which Bible are you talking about?", we may ask. "Why, there is only one Bible!" he mutters.

The Catholic Bible
Holding the "Douay" Roman Catholic version of the Bible aloft in my hand, I ask, "do you accept this Bible as the word of God?" for reasons best known to themselves, the Catholic Truth Society have published their version of the Bible in a very short, stumpy form. This version is a very odd proportion of the numerous versions in the market today. The Christian questioner is taken aback. "What Bible is that?" he asks. "Why, I thought you said that there was only one Bible!" I remind him. "Y-e-s," he murmurs hesitantly, "but what version is that?" "Why, would that make any difference?" I enquire. Of course it does, and the professional preacher knows that it does. He is only bluffing with his "one Bible" claim.
The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "Apocrypha" i.e. of doubtful authority. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":
". . . if any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
But who cares! They do not really believe! the protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their book of God! the outcasts are:
the book of Judith
the book of Tobias
the book of Baruch
the buck of Esther, etc.
* this disparaging title is given by the orthodox to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and a thousand other sects and denominations with whom they do not see eye to eye.

The Protestant Bible
Sir Winston Churchill has some pertinent things to say about the Authorised Version (AV) of the Protestant Bible, which is also widely known as the "King James Version (KJV)": "The authorised version of the Bible was published in 1611 by the will and command of his majesty King James the 1st whose name it bears till today. The Roman Catholics, believing as they do that the Protestants have mutilated the Book of God, are yet aiding and abetting the Protestant "crime" by forcing their native converts to purchase the Authorised Version (AV) of the Bible, which is the only Bible available in some 1500 languages of the lesser developed nations of the world. The Roman Catholics milk their cows, but the feeding is left to the Protestants! The overwhelming majority of Christians — both Catholics and Protestant — use the authorised (AV) or the King James Version (KJV) as it is alternatively called.”

Glowing tributes
First published, as Sir Winston says, in 1611, and then revised in 1881 (RV), and now re-revised and brought up to date as the revised standard version (RSV) 1952, and now again re-re-revised in 1971 (still RSV for short). Let us see what opinion Christendom has of this most revised Bible, the RSV:-
1. "the finest version which has been produced in the present century." — (Church of England newspaper)
2. "a completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence." — (Times Literary Supplement)
3. "the well-loved characteristics of the Authorised Version combined with a new accuracy of translation." — (Life and Work)
4. "the most accurate and close rendering of the original" — (The Times)
The publishers (Collins) themselves, in their notes on the Bible at the end of their production, say on page 10: "this Bible (RSV), is the product of thirty-two scholars, assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty co-operating denominations." Why all this boasting? To make the gullible public buy their product? All these testimonies convince the purchaser that he is backing the right horse, with the purchaser little suspecting that he is being taken for a ride.

"The world's best seller"
But what about the Authorised Version of the Bible (AV), the "world's best seller?" These revisers, all good salesmen, have some very pretty things to say about it. However, their page iii, paragraph six of the preface of the RSV reads; "the King James Version (alternative description of AV) has with good reason been termed 'the noblest monument of English prose.’ Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for 'its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression ... the music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.’ It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt."
Can you, dear reader, imagine a more magnificent tribute being paid to the "book of books" than the above? I, for one, cannot. Let the believing Christian, now steel himself for the un-kindest blow of all from his own beloved lawyers of religion; for in the very same breath they say: "yet the King James Version has grave defects." and, "that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision . . ." This is straight from the horse's mouth, i.e. the orthodox Christian scholars of "the highest eminence." Another galaxy of doctors of divinity are now required to produce an encyclopaedia explaining the cause of those grave and serious defects in their holy writ and their reasons for eliminating them.
... to be continued , Insa'Allah (God willing)
Chapter 4 50,000 errors in the Bible


Tman, if you do not believe in the Bible or the God of the Bible you do spend alot of time on this site trying to prove your point.

Usually when one is convinced of what they are about, or who they are, or what they believe -in your case a Muslim- one does not waste time trying to convince others of what they are not; unless one is subconsciously uncertain of their own belief system.


Cyrus I. Scofield completed what is probably the most comprehensive and orthodox reference and study work ever produced from a Protestant source in what is commonly referred to as 'The Scofield Reference Bible' or the newer edition, 'The New Scofield Study Bible,(New King James Version).

The thoroughness of the historical and archaeological research and cross referencing puts much of the Jewish and Christian doctrine in perspective of the 'living' times of the ages that the historical records or 'books' have kept as a record, not of the 'Word' but as the 'Will' of God kept alive in mankind's consciousness.

The different opinions, doctrines and dogma that originates from these records are very much a 'grey area' and these are as old as mankind and the 'records', themselves.

Keeping in mind that most, if not all, of the authors of these 'records' (those included and excluded in the accepted Canon, whether Roman or Protestant)were Jewish in nationality and religion, the history of the Jewish people is the common link that validates the 'records'.

There won't be too many believers of any faith that will find it easy to accept that these 'records' represent less to do with religious beliefs than they represent a historical record of the nations of the earth and all their religious beliefs and in co-existence and conflict with each other as the nations have been.

Another Christian author, Grant Jeffrey, has much research and knowledge to share on this topic.

His book, 'Armageddon, An Appointment With Destiny' would be good reading for anyone really interested in this topic.

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#146964 - 12/29/09 12:19 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Ric]
gizmo
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Is the Quran any better? There are numerous criticisms about its organization, compilation and credibility. I'll give some examples:

Almost universally, independent scholars studying the Qur'an and Hadith, have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was then and there that Islam took on its identity and became a religion.

The Qur'an reads like a jumbled and confused collection of statements and ideas, many of which bear little relationship to preceding chapters and verses.

Many stories in the Quran have been copied from Talmudic sources. Qur'anic stories include many distortions, amendments, and some bizarre additions to those familiar stories.
Eg.
The story of Abraham
In sura 21:51-71, we find the story of Abraham. In the Qur'anic account Abraham confronts his people and his father because of the many idols which they worship. After an argument between Abraham and the people, they depart and Abraham breaks the smaller idols, leaving the larger ones intact. When the people see this they call Abraham and ask if he is responsible, to which he replies that it must have been the larger idols which did the destruction. He challenges them to ask the larger idols to find out, to which they reply, "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!" (aya 65). He gives a taunting retort, and they then throw him into a fire. But in aya 69 Allah commands the fire to be cool, making it safe for Abraham, and he miraculously walks out unscathed.

There are no parallels to this story in the Torah. There is a parallel, however, in a second century book of Jewish folktales called The Midrash Rabbah. In this account Abraham breaks all the idols except the biggest one. His father and the others challenged him on this, and with a humor removed from the Qur'anic account, Abraham replies that he had given the biggest idol an ox for all the idols to eat, but because the smaller idols went ahead and ate, showing no respect, the bigger idol smashed the smaller ones. The enraged father did not believe Abraham's account, and so took him to a man named Nimrod, who simply threw him into a fire. But God made it cool for him and he walked out unscathed.

The similarity between these two stories is unmistakable. A second century Jewish fable, a folklore, and myth is repeated in the "holy Qur'an." It is quite evident that the compiler of this account heard snatches of the Biblical narratives from visiting Jews and assuming they came from the same source unwittingly wrote Jewish folklore into the Qur'an.

Some Muslims claim that this myth, and not the Biblical account, is in reality the true Word of God. They maintain that the Jews simply expunged it so as not to correspond with the later Qur'anic account. Without attempting to explain how the Jews would have known to expunge this particular story, since the Qur'an was not to appear until centuries later, we nontheless must ask where this folklore comes from?

The old testament itself gives us the answer. In Genesis 15:7, the Lord tells Abraham that it was He who brought Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldeans. Ur is a place, also mentioned in Genesis 11:31. We have evidence that a Jewish scribe named Jonathan Ben Uziel mistook the Hebrew word "Ur" for the Hebrew word which means "fire." Thus in his commentary of this verse he writes, "I am the Lord who brought you out of the fire of the Chaldeans."
Consequently, because of this misunderstanding, and because of a misreading of the Biblical verse a fable became popular around this era, which stated that God had brought Abraham out of the fire. With this information in hand, we can, therefore, discern where the Jewish fable originated: from a misunderstanding of one word in a Biblical verse by one errant scribe. Yet, somehow this errant understanding found its way into the Qur'an.

It is obvious from these examples that the compiler of the Qur'an simply repeated what he had heard, and not being able to distinguish between that which he heard and that which was Biblical truth, he simply introduced them side-by-side in the Qur'an.

There are other instances where we find both apocryphal Jewish and Christian literatures within the Qur'anic text. The account of Mt. Sinai being lifted up and held over the heads of the Jews as a threat for rejecting the law (sura 7:171) comes from the second century Jewish apocryphal book, The Abodah Sarah. The odd accounts of the early childhood of Jesus in the Qur'an can be traced to a number of Christian apocryphal writings: the Palm tree which provides for the anguish of Mary after Jesus's birth (sura 19:22-26) comes from The Lost Books of the Bible; while the account of the infant Jesus creating birds from clay (sura 3:49) comes from Thomas' Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ. The story of the baby Jesus talking (sura 19:29-33) can be traced to Arabic apocryphal fable from Egypt named The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ.

In sura 17:1 we have the report of Muhammad's journey by night from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque.' From later traditions we know this aya is referring to Muhammad ascending up to the seventh heaven, after a miraculous night journey (the Mi'raj) from Mecca to Jerusalem, on a "horse" called Buraq. More detail is furnished us in the Mishkat al Masabih. We can trace the story back to a fictitious book called The Testament of Abraham, written around 200 B.C., in Egypt, and then translated into Greek and Arabic. Another analogous account is that of The Secrets of Enoch ( chapter 1:4-10 and 2:1), which predates the Qur'an by four centuries. Yet a further similar account is largely modelled on the story contained in the old Persian book entitled Arta-i Viraf Namak, telling how a pious young Zoroastrian ascended to the skies, and, on his return, related what he had seen, or professed to have seen (Pfander 1835:295-296).

The Qur'anic description of Hell resembles the descriptions of hell in the Homilies of Ephraim, a Nestorian preacher of the sixth century (Glubb 1971:36) The author of the Qur'an in suras 42:17 and 101:6-9 possibly utilized The Testament of Abraham to teach that a scale or balance will be used on the day of judgment to weigh good and bad deeds in order to determine whether one goes to heaven or to hell.

The description of Paradise in suras 55:56-58 and 56:22-24,35-37, which speak of the righteous being rewarded with wide-eyed houris who have eyes like pearls has interesting parallels in the Zoroastrian religion of Persia, where the name for the maidens is not houris, but Paaris.

It is important to remember that the Talmudic accounts were not considered by the orthodox Jews of that period as authentic for one very good reason: they were not in existence at the council of Jamnia in 80 A.D. when the Old Testament was canonized. Neither were the Christian apocryphal material considered canonical, as they were not attested as authoritative both prior to and after the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Thus these accounts have always been understood as heretical by both the Jewish and Christian orthodox believers and the literate. It is for this reason that we find it deeply suspicious that the apocryphal accounts should have made their way into a book claiming to be the final revelation from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

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#146971 - 12/29/09 12:59 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: gizmo]
gizmo
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Posts: 799
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Muslims don't take kindly to scrutiny of their religion or their prophet. I agree with many of the criticism regarding the development of the New Testament. However, the same criticism may be said against Judaism and Islam. By the barrage of criticisms laid against the bible and Jesus, you couldn't tell that Islam accepts the Bible as a Holy Book and reveres Jesus as a prophet. In my opinion, the religious infighting is a distraction leading people away from God rather than toward Him. What do the HOLY BOOKS agree on...the Mosaic Laws and Monotheism. I wish people were also obsessed with espousing the Mosaic laws and the work of the scholars regarding its application today. I am not talking about the ten commandments only...Muslims, Jews and Christians have all developed other codes emanating from ten commandments and laws contained in the old testament. How do these laws apply today?
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#146975 - 12/29/09 01:43 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: gizmo]
Ric
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 2032

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 Originally Posted By: gizmo
Is the Quran any better? There are numerous criticisms about its organization, compilation and credibility. I'll give some examples:

Almost universally, independent scholars studying the Qur'an and Hadith, have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was then and there that Islam took on its identity and became a religion.

The Qur'an reads like a jumbled and confused collection of statements and ideas, many of which bear little relationship to preceding chapters and verses.

Many stories in the Quran have been copied from Talmudic sources. Qur'anic stories include many distortions, amendments, and some bizarre additions to those familiar stories.
Eg.
The story of Abraham
In sura 21:51-71, we find the story of Abraham. In the Qur'anic account Abraham confronts his people and his father because of the many idols which they worship. After an argument between Abraham and the people, they depart and Abraham breaks the smaller idols, leaving the larger ones intact. When the people see this they call Abraham and ask if he is responsible, to which he replies that it must have been the larger idols which did the destruction. He challenges them to ask the larger idols to find out, to which they reply, "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!" (aya 65). He gives a taunting retort, and they then throw him into a fire. But in aya 69 Allah commands the fire to be cool, making it safe for Abraham, and he miraculously walks out unscathed.

There are no parallels to this story in the Torah. There is a parallel, however, in a second century book of Jewish folktales called The Midrash Rabbah. In this account Abraham breaks all the idols except the biggest one. His father and the others challenged him on this, and with a humor removed from the Qur'anic account, Abraham replies that he had given the biggest idol an ox for all the idols to eat, but because the smaller idols went ahead and ate, showing no respect, the bigger idol smashed the smaller ones. The enraged father did not believe Abraham's account, and so took him to a man named Nimrod, who simply threw him into a fire. But God made it cool for him and he walked out unscathed.

The similarity between these two stories is unmistakable. A second century Jewish fable, a folklore, and myth is repeated in the "holy Qur'an." It is quite evident that the compiler of this account heard snatches of the Biblical narratives from visiting Jews and assuming they came from the same source unwittingly wrote Jewish folklore into the Qur'an.

Some Muslims claim that this myth, and not the Biblical account, is in reality the true Word of God. They maintain that the Jews simply expunged it so as not to correspond with the later Qur'anic account. Without attempting to explain how the Jews would have known to expunge this particular story, since the Qur'an was not to appear until centuries later, we nontheless must ask where this folklore comes from?

The old testament itself gives us the answer. In Genesis 15:7, the Lord tells Abraham that it was He who brought Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldeans. Ur is a place, also mentioned in Genesis 11:31. We have evidence that a Jewish scribe named Jonathan Ben Uziel mistook the Hebrew word "Ur" for the Hebrew word which means "fire." Thus in his commentary of this verse he writes, "I am the Lord who brought you out of the fire of the Chaldeans."
Consequently, because of this misunderstanding, and because of a misreading of the Biblical verse a fable became popular around this era, which stated that God had brought Abraham out of the fire. With this information in hand, we can, therefore, discern where the Jewish fable originated: from a misunderstanding of one word in a Biblical verse by one errant scribe. Yet, somehow this errant understanding found its way into the Qur'an.

It is obvious from these examples that the compiler of the Qur'an simply repeated what he had heard, and not being able to distinguish between that which he heard and that which was Biblical truth, he simply introduced them side-by-side in the Qur'an.

There are other instances where we find both apocryphal Jewish and Christian literatures within the Qur'anic text. The account of Mt. Sinai being lifted up and held over the heads of the Jews as a threat for rejecting the law (sura 7:171) comes from the second century Jewish apocryphal book, The Abodah Sarah. The odd accounts of the early childhood of Jesus in the Qur'an can be traced to a number of Christian apocryphal writings: the Palm tree which provides for the anguish of Mary after Jesus's birth (sura 19:22-26) comes from The Lost Books of the Bible; while the account of the infant Jesus creating birds from clay (sura 3:49) comes from Thomas' Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ. The story of the baby Jesus talking (sura 19:29-33) can be traced to Arabic apocryphal fable from Egypt named The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ.

In sura 17:1 we have the report of Muhammad's journey by night from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque.' From later traditions we know this aya is referring to Muhammad ascending up to the seventh heaven, after a miraculous night journey (the Mi'raj) from Mecca to Jerusalem, on a "horse" called Buraq. More detail is furnished us in the Mishkat al Masabih. We can trace the story back to a fictitious book called The Testament of Abraham, written around 200 B.C., in Egypt, and then translated into Greek and Arabic. Another analogous account is that of The Secrets of Enoch ( chapter 1:4-10 and 2:1), which predates the Qur'an by four centuries. Yet a further similar account is largely modelled on the story contained in the old Persian book entitled Arta-i Viraf Namak, telling how a pious young Zoroastrian ascended to the skies, and, on his return, related what he had seen, or professed to have seen (Pfander 1835:295-296).

The Qur'anic description of Hell resembles the descriptions of hell in the Homilies of Ephraim, a Nestorian preacher of the sixth century (Glubb 1971:36) The author of the Qur'an in suras 42:17 and 101:6-9 possibly utilized The Testament of Abraham to teach that a scale or balance will be used on the day of judgment to weigh good and bad deeds in order to determine whether one goes to heaven or to hell.

The description of Paradise in suras 55:56-58 and 56:22-24,35-37, which speak of the righteous being rewarded with wide-eyed houris who have eyes like pearls has interesting parallels in the Zoroastrian religion of Persia, where the name for the maidens is not houris, but Paaris.

It is important to remember that the Talmudic accounts were not considered by the orthodox Jews of that period as authentic for one very good reason: they were not in existence at the council of Jamnia in 80 A.D. when the Old Testament was canonized. Neither were the Christian apocryphal material considered canonical, as they were not attested as authoritative both prior to and after the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Thus these accounts have always been understood as heretical by both the Jewish and Christian orthodox believers and the literate. It is for this reason that we find it deeply suspicious that the apocryphal accounts should have made their way into a book claiming to be the final revelation from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.




One very important point that needs to be taken into account is the age and origins of these written texts; all sources quoted.

The origins of these scriptures are in the oral traditions of the original nations of the earth and these traditions were only passed on through the 'priesthood' of each nation.

Anything that has been written down could only have come second hand through trusted sources, usually 'scribes' whose job was to faithfully and accurately record what was related to them.

That is the process by which all the 'scripture' of the religious cultures of the Levant or Mesopotamia comes down to us today.

They are the same story related from different religious and cultural points of view.

The books of antiquity in the Hebrew Canon (Holy Bible) are those first 5 books ascribed to Moses. These and most books in the Canon are giving an overview and are short on detail. The Koran abounds in detail but are records of the same individuals and events.

Genesis is the knowledge that Moses gained as the Crown Prince/High Priest elect of Egypt but you will not find details of this in the Canon.

The non-religious history of the Jewish race is recorded by Flavius Josephus and is accepted by most scholars as a legitimate source of historical accuracy and by its very nature, Josephuses's account must recount the history of the other nations of the time as well.

The origins of man were related to Moses from the high priests of Egypt, whom he trained and studied under to assume his role as the next Pharoah of Egypt until his Hebrew origins took predominance and the story can be traced from then on in the evolvement of the Hebrew race into the Jewish nation.

Abram, or Abraham, was of the Chaldean race and religion originally and the Qu'ran's version of how and why he left Mesopotamia is much more detailed. The Hebrew version only says 'he was called by God'.

The Eqyptian and Chaldean races and religions predate the Hebrew race and religion by many many generations and it is these sources from which the Hebrews gained their knowledge of the origins of man for which the Genises narrative takes so much credit.

The Hebrew race spent 430 years in Egypt and as yet they had not become the nation of Jews.

The Jewish nation spent 70 years of captivity under the Chaldean (Babylonian) ruler, Nebuchadnezzer, many many generations after Job and Abram had been members of that nation and living in Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq).

The source of this knowledge, dates and history is found in the Hebrew Canon itself, so cannot be argued against as coming from other sources.

Even in the limited detail versions of the Hebrew Canon, when studied and read without the breaks in verse numbering, the story is very clear and discernable but is in no way complete.

Together, the Holy Scriptures and the Qu'ran give a deep view of the history and religious beliefs of the generations of Abram as the founder of the world's two monotheistic faiths.

The origins and history of the other nations and religious cultures are told in other sources and each source must be accessed to get a full picture of anything that could be called the 'truth'.

Neither Jewish, Christian or Islamic religiuos beliefs or history can be disconnected from the sources of ancient knowledge that they originate from or the nations that originated them, the Eqyptians and the Chaldeans.

The Ethiopians are also another race of antiquity from where original sources of knowledge comes that are both referred to and quoted in Hebrew scripture.

Josephus again gives the origin of the relationship of Moses with Ethiopia long before he was reunited to his Hebrew roots and gives detail of his marriage to the princess of Ethiopia as a political connection in making peace with Ethiopia in a campaign as the military leader of Egypt, in his role as regent and heir apparent to the throne of Egypt.

The only reference made in the Hebrew Canon comes in the recounting of the incident in the book of Numbers, when Miriam, his sister, was temporarily cursed with leprosy for critising Moses for 'having married an Ethiopian woman'.

No detail of this marriage or any other reference to it is found anywhere in the Hebrew Canon.

These facts will not be disseminated in any synagogue, church or mosque because, if the truth must be told, they have very little to do with 'religion' but a seeker of the truth must be diligent to access all available sources on any matter before forming an opinion.

Very few believers of most 'religions', including Christianity and Islam will become true 'seekers of knowledge' because their religious beliefs limits that possibility, not enhances it.

Peace to all !


Edited by Ric (12/29/09 02:08 PM)

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#146978 - 12/29/09 02:09 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Tman]
Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
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The evil cult that is militant Islam needs to be exposed for all of the free and united world. Militant Islam has been responsible for countless killings and destruction of world treasures. Militant Islam bears no love for secularism, freedom, dignity of women, right to freedom of thought, expression , faith , belief and worship. It is a totalitarian cult that fosters murderous fundamentalism and non tolerance of any other way of life except its own.

Islamist apologists are fooling nobody but themselves, for when the time comes for forceful conversion to Islam or payment of jizya , it will be too late for them. It is time that the free world recognizes militant Islam for the evil that it really is and unites to put down this murderous and deadly philosophy that has brought doom to millions throughout history.

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#146981 - 12/29/09 02:42 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: gizmo]
Ric
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 2032

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 Originally Posted By: gizmo
Muslims don't take kindly to scrutiny of their religion or their prophet. I agree with many of the criticism regarding the development of the New Testament. However, the same criticism may be said against Judaism and Islam. By the barrage of criticisms laid against the bible and Jesus, you couldn't tell that Islam accepts the Bible as a Holy Book and reveres Jesus as a prophet. In my opinion, the religious infighting is a distraction leading people away from God rather than toward Him. What do the HOLY BOOKS agree on...the Mosaic Laws and Monotheism. I wish people were also obsessed with espousing the Mosaic laws and the work of the scholars regarding its application today. I am not talking about the ten commandments only...Muslims, Jews and Christians have all developed other codes emanating from ten commandments and laws contained in the old testament. How do these laws apply today?


Another proof of the lack of detail in the Hebrew Canon lies in its reference to Melchezzidek, king of Salem, of whom nothing is known, neither his origins or his destiny after meeting and accepting tribute from the Hebrew(a case of dual 'citizenship'?) patriarch, Abraham, originally known in the ancient world as Abram of Chaldea.

In the meeting of the kings of ancient nations, tribute was expected and paid by the inferior, militarily weaker ruler to stave off attack and conquering by the stronger ruler and nation.

This meeting is recorded very briefly in the Hebrew Canon but its significance must not be overlooked or underestimated.

Melchezzidek was the predominant world ruler of the the then-known world but the Jews, as is their nature, would and have down-played any relationship or event in which they are not the superior party, as the 'chosen people of God'.

It is my belief that Melchezzidek also hailed from Mesopotamia and was well-known to Abram before this recorded meeting and paying of homage.

The point is here is that all religious texts are written in the bias and eyes of the nation and religion from which they originate and none are excepted.

The code of the 10 Commandments come from the 'code of Hammurabi' and are not jewish in origin at all but this is completely in nature with the evolvement of nations in which 'good practice' is passed on and accepted and assimilated in the religious and legal codes of nations.

The general code of human government certainly is not Christian in application and calls for punishment and not forgiveness for transgression.

Human government is run by the code of 'an eye for an eye' and is a code that long existed before it was incorporated into Jewish law as a code by which that nation should live and abide.


Edited by Ric (12/29/09 02:46 PM)

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#146987 - 12/29/09 05:44 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Ric]
gizmo
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Some historians say that Zoroastrianism was the first monotheistic religion. It preceded Judaism probably by probably 400 years. It came out of ancient Mesopotamia...the cradle of civilization after the great flood. The code of Hammurabi was no revolution. It too was preceded by codes revealed to mankind by God and handed down generation after generation after creation. Noah preceded Abram and the Hammurabi code by 11 generations. By the time Abram was born Noah's sons, who would have known the so called "Noahide Laws" would have spread the same code among their descendants. Noah also had a covenant with God.

The Noahide laws are as follows:
1) No worship of false gods.
2) Murder is not permitted.
3) Stealing and Kidnapping are sins.
4) Sexual immorality if forbidden. This includes adultery and homosexual behavior, as well as incest.
5) Do not blaspheme God.
6) Do not consume any flesh torn from an animal that is still alive.
7) Establish a system of laws, courts, and police that is honest and effective.

There are a number of differences between Judaism's legal system and the Sumerian Code of Hammurabi (18th century BCE). For example: Hammurabi's Code is only consequential law; i.e., if you do X then Y will happen to you. The laws of the old testament on the other hand gives moral pronouncements; i.e., "You shall not…" - as well as consequences.
Hammurabi's Code contains no positive obligations toward others. The old testament on the other hand is replete with directives of love, kindness, lending, charity, etc. Hammurabi's Code protects the nobility and land-owners as privileged classes. The class of people "protected and favored" in the old testament are the widows, the orphans, the poor and the strangers.

Whatever similarity Hammurabi's Code bears to the old testament may be attributed to the following: Before the Torah was given to Moses at Sinai, Mankind already had seven categories of laws in the "Noahide Laws" which God had commanded to Noah.

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#146990 - 12/29/09 06:23 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: gizmo]
truetrini
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Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 5720
Loc: Smithfield, Virginia, U.S.A.

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Read the Epic of Gilgamesh and see who copied what!
_________________________
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

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#146991 - 12/29/09 06:27 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: Noel2000]
truetrini
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Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 5720
Loc: Smithfield, Virginia, U.S.A.

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 Originally Posted By: Noel2000
The evil cult that is militant Islam needs to be exposed for all of the free and united world. Militant Islam has been responsible for countless killings and destruction of world treasures. Militant Islam bears no love for secularism, freedom, dignity of women, right to freedom of thought, expression , faith , belief and worship. It is a totalitarian cult that fosters murderous fundamentalism and non tolerance of any other way of life except its own.

Islamist apologists are fooling nobody but themselves, for when the time comes for forceful conversion to Islam or payment of jizya , it will be too late for them. It is time that the free world recognizes militant Islam for the evil that it really is and unites to put down this murderous and deadly philosophy that has brought doom to millions throughout history.


Can you ever say exactly what YOU think? Do you ever get original thoughts in your head? Or do you just have to go around copying and pasting here without giving the original author any form of credit for their thoughts and ideas?


I am yet to see any thing original posted by you. All I ever see is copy and paste, copy and paste!
_________________________
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

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#146992 - 12/29/09 06:29 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: truetrini]
truetrini
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Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 5720
Loc: Smithfield, Virginia, U.S.A.

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Even the writing of Josephus have been tampered with by the Catholic Church.
_________________________
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

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#146994 - 12/29/09 06:39 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: truetrini]
Noel2000
Member


Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach

Offline
 Originally Posted By: truetrini
 Originally Posted By: Noel2000
The evil cult that is militant Islam needs to be exposed for all of the free and united world. Militant Islam has been responsible for countless killings and destruction of world treasures. Militant Islam bears no love for secularism, freedom, dignity of women, right to freedom of thought, expression , faith , belief and worship. It is a totalitarian cult that fosters murderous fundamentalism and non tolerance of any other way of life except its own.

Islamist apologists are fooling nobody but themselves, for when the time comes for forceful conversion to Islam or payment of jizya , it will be too late for them. It is time that the free world recognizes militant Islam for the evil that it really is and unites to put down this murderous and deadly philosophy that has brought doom to millions throughout history.


Can you ever say exactly what YOU think? Do you ever get original thoughts in your head? Or do you just have to go around copying and pasting here without giving the original author any form of credit for their thoughts and ideas?


I am yet to see any thing original posted by you. All I ever see is copy and paste, copy and paste!



It's easier this way, I share the same views as the authors.

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#146995 - 12/29/09 06:42 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: truetrini]
Noel2000
Member


Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach

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 Originally Posted By: truetrini
Read the Epic of Gilgamesh and see who copied what!




What would be expected if Genesis were a copy of Gilgamesh?

The first striking thing that one notices when reading the Epic of Gilgamesh is how silly the story is. Part of the silliness is because of the obviously human-like behavior of the gods. They are constantly fighting amongst each other, plotting and deceiving each other. One would expect this part of the story to be removed from a Genesis copy. Therefore, we would expect that the Genesis account would be changed to involve some kind of judgment, since Yahweh (God) does not capriciously destroy humans, as was done in the Gilgamesh epic. It would, therefore, make sense that Noah would be chosen for his righteousness although Utnapishtim was chosen for no apparent reason.

Even with these major changes not considered, there are many dissimilarities that would not be expected from a story copied from another story. For example, the timings of the flood accounts are vastly different. The Gilgamesh flood took only 3 weeks, whereas the Genesis flood lasted over a year. The Gilgamesh flood included several 7 day long events. This "perfect" number is found throughout the Bible, so would be expected to be retained if copied from the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the Bible uses numbers like 40 and 150 - much longer timeframes.

The boats in the two accounts are quite different. The Gilgamesh boat was an unseaworthy cube with a slate roof. Obviously, such a design would immediately flip over or roll around in the water. In contrast, the ark had dimensions that were ideal for a seaworthy ship. This fact might be surprising, since both cultures were not noted for their nautical skills. It is obvious that the gods of the Sumerians had no expertise in shipbuilding.

We have examined the similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis flood account of the Bible. Although there are a number of superficial similarities between the accounts, the vast majority of similarities would be expected to be found in any ancient flood account. Only two similarities stand out as being unique - landing of the boats on a mountain and the use of birds to determine when the flood subsided. However, both of these similarities differ in important details. In addition, there are great differences in the timing of each of the flood accounts and the nature of the vessels. Why these details would be so drastically changed is a problem for those who claim that the Genesis flood was derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

There are a couple possible explanations for the existence of multiple ancient flood accounts. One - that Genesis was a copy of Gilgamesh - has already been discussed and does not seem to fit the available data. The other possible explanation is that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations. The story is a rather silly myth that bears little resemblance to reality. In contrast, the Genesis account is a logical, seemingly factual account of a historical event. It lacks the obvious mythological aspects of the Gilgamesh epic.

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#147003 - 12/29/09 07:01 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: truetrini]
Noel2000
Member


Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach

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For some reason or another, Atheists feel that they need to beat you over the head with their view of creation, laws, the Bible, God, the Constitution and more. They consistently tell Christians that they are wrong! They simply must always be right! Atheists can’t see the forest for the trees. Now I’m not saying that they are dumb, but they do seem have an ill adjusted logic about ‘faith’.

Atheists, agnostics and other non-believers will always seem to quote science, scientists, NASA and others. That is a significant problem for Atheists. Science, scientists, NASA (a scientific organization funded by the U.S. Taxpayer) have been wrong on numerous occasions. Just look at how NASA has changed their view of global warming several times in the last few years. Science is not perfect, however the Bible is.

Using scientific theory to disprove the Bible is like using gasoline to put out a fire. The reverse of that would be using the Bible to prove the existence of UFO’s, it can’t be done! By using scientific theory to disprove the Bible and Christianity, they only create more questions for themselves, but they would never admit that.

The Bible is perfect because it is the divinely inspired, true and infallible word of God, not science. As an Evangelical Christian, the Bible is ‘the’ source of explanatory information about all of the things that the Atheist crowd attempts to debunk with scientific theory.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are many things that science, scientists and yes, even NASA have discovered which have helped mankind, but Atheists seem to have a mental block about the reality of the real truth about who is/was responsible for even their own individual existence. However, they are more than willing to put their trust in some guy named ‘Charlie’ Darwin who just happened to write a book titled “On the Origin of Species” or what is commonly knows as the Theory of Evolution 150 years ago this year.

Atheists have no problem putting their full trust in the fact that we all descended from a common ancestor, which is what Darwin’s book was really about. Even though there is no proof to this date, that he was correct 150 years ago, when labs and science were in their infancy; they (Atheists) ‘believe’ he was right, but just cannot ‘believe’ the Bible!

The Bible is filled with witnesses to the events described in it. Additionally, it is filled with witnesses to prophecy; both to prophecy as it was being fulfilled, as well as witnessing the Prophet giving the message, but Atheists are not willing to believe, it’s just a fairy tail to them.
_____________________________________________________________
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.

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#147004 - 12/29/09 07:04 PM Re: Is the Bible God's word? [Re: gizmo]
Ric
Forum General


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 2032

content Online
 Originally Posted By: gizmo
Some historians say that Zoroastrianism was the first monotheistic religion. It preceded Judaism probably by probably 400 years. It came out of ancient Mesopotamia...the cradle of civilization after the great flood. The code of Hammurabi was no revolution. It too was preceded by codes revealed to mankind by God and handed down generation after generation after creation. Noah preceded Abram and the Hammurabi code by 11 generations. By the time Abram was born Noah's sons, who would have known the so called "Noahide Laws" would have spread the same code among their descendants. Noah also had a covenant with God.

The Noahide laws are as follows:
1) No worship of false gods.
2) Murder is not permitted.
3) Stealing and Kidnapping are sins.
4) Sexual immorality if forbidden. This includes adultery and homosexual behavior, as well as incest.
5) Do not blaspheme God.
6) Do not consume any flesh torn from an animal that is still alive.
7) Establish a system of laws, courts, and police that is honest and effective.

There are a number of differences between Judaism's legal system and the Sumerian Code of Hammurabi (18th century BCE). For example: Hammurabi's Code is only consequential law; i.e., if you do X then Y will happen to you. The laws of the old testament on the other hand gives moral pronouncements; i.e., "You shall not…" - as well as consequences.
Hammurabi's Code contains no positive obligations toward others. The old testament on the other hand is replete with directives of love, kindness, lending, charity, etc. Hammurabi's Code protects the nobility and land-owners as privileged classes. The class of people "protected and favored" in the old testament are the widows, the orphans, the poor and the strangers.

Whatever similarity Hammurabi's Code bears to the old testament may be attributed to the following: Before the Torah was given to Moses at Sinai, Mankind already had seven categories of laws in the "Noahide Laws" which God had commanded to Noah.


You've overlooked my main point which is that the code of conduct of human behaviour, history of the origins of the human race and religious concepts of the Divine are unique to every nation but carry a common theme which predates and transcends both Judaism and Islam as the organized religions we have today.

This point also applies to the religious scriptures of both religions; these scriptures are for the benefit and use of the believers in both religions, were formulated from knowledge that vastly predates those religions and are in no way complete within themselves.

Your excellent knowledge of some of the other material that I have referred to only bears out my point.

If the code of Hammurabi has its roots in the Noahic laws, then it is much older and more original than the 10 commandments and Noah predates the Jewish people and religion by more generations than is accounted for in the Hebrew version of this history.

Noah's direct descendants would have been contemporaries of Nimrod, the founder of the religious and military culture of Mesopotamia

The Jewish nation did not emerge as such until the grandson of Abraham, Jacob, formulated his own tribe through his twelve sons and only one of those sons is represented in the name Jew.

That son is Judah.

The Hebrew Canon is no more complete or exclusive in its origins than the Qu'ran is.

This is the reason they bear so many similiraties; they are both drawn from similar sources but intended for two seperate nations of people and their religious culture.

Read Graham Hancock's book, 'Fingerprints of the Gods' and you will see how similar much of the religious doctrine is between ancient races and nations that predate both Judaism and Islam.

I am not contributing here as a Christian believer but as a student of ancient history and cultures so my views are neutral and objective based on the research I've done on the subject.

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