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Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
Originally Posted By: Tman
Bolivar: Likewise, most CHRISTIANS living in CHRISTIAN countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to CHRISTIAN law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect" CHRISTIANS , answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every MUSLIM, MUST make their own personal decision to follow THE QURAN AND THE WORD OF GOD, and they in turn have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is, THE ONE TRUE GOD. This relationship is so personal, they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them, they relate and talk directly to HIM.
[quote=Tman]
Answer to "I am" Jesus said "I am" so he must be God
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
Tman, You just showed me that you are not a well thinking person: I am going to show you from your own example of the context of what he said to beggar that the " I AM " in response to the Jews are two completely different sentences,, and therfore have two completely different meanings:
But before that, let me ask you how many times the Phrase "I AM " is written in the bible and how may times the context is as an auxilary VERB or ADVERB? The answer is HUNDREDS. Let me ask you again how many time the words "I AM " is used as a NOUN to PURELY describe "something" or someone?
The answer is two(2). Once in Exodus, when GOD revealed himself to Moses in the Burning bush, and once in the Book of John, when Jesus descrbed who he IS to the JEWS, by answering a direct question.
Jesus had many times before that incident said " I AM " when speaking to people. But not once did the Jews throw stones at him. Your own aguments above give testimony to that point. However, in this last statement, when he described himself to them simply as "I AM",, they began stoning him...
Now why didn't they stone him before??? Also why didn't they stone anyone that used the words" I AM " without any thing to clarify it??? the answer is simply that The context in which the term is used justifies what it means,,,,
in essence, the Jews Knew That JESUS was describing him self as the SAME "I AM" that told Moses in the burning bush "I AM"...as a result they stoned him. According to them, He was making himselg GOD, and at his crucifixixion, the high priests accused him of this and he DID NOT DENY IT!!!!
As to your question as to why Jesus never told anyone to worship him, ,,,it is simple....he EXPLICITLY told all his disciples that they should NEVER worship ANY Man but Only God. Yet, at the same time, the bible has at least 10 accounts of People Worshipping JESUS CHRIST, and he NEVER ONCE stopped them!!!!!How do you reason this point?????
Check it again!!!!
Bless.
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Likewise, most CHRISTIANS living in CHRISTIAN countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to CHRISTIAN law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect" CHRISTIANS , answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every MUSLIM, MUST make their own personal decision to follow THE QURAN AND THE WORD OF GOD, and they in turn have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is, THE ONE TRUE GOD. This relationship is so personal, they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them, they relate and talk directly to HIM.
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Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request? So because Jesus(PBUH) didn't stop people from "worshiping" him, that means he is God? Could the word translated as "worship" in English be another "scribal error" or "misunderstanding the original Hebrew"? Or did Jesus' (pbuh) true message only take hold on these ten occasions? So we would have to judge his mission as a failure if only 10 people "worshiped" him.
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Jesus is God almighty the Creator of all things, go study the scriptures Tman and ask God to open you're eyes and your ears and to give you an understanding heart. Even better, ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins and invite Him to come into you're life and He will fill you with the Holy spirit who will guide you into all truth. and that is a promise from a holy God who can't lie.
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More blah,blah and no explanation. Just blind acceptance and no thinking for yourself. Solve the puzzle: Friday evening to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain the math Mr Slippery.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
More blah,blah and no explanation. Just blind acceptance and no thinking for yourself. Solve the puzzle: Friday evening to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain the math Mr Slippery.
Tman, keep the math and I will blind faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Tman,By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac. By faith in the Divine justice and wisdom behind the command so to act. By faith in the veracity and faithfulness of God to make good His own promises. Fully assured that God was able to fulfill His word, Abraham closed his eyes to all difficulties, and steadfastly counted upon the power of Him that cannot lie. This is the very nature or character of a spiritual faith: it persuades the soul of God’s absolute supremacy, unerring wisdom, unchanging righteousness, infinite love, almighty power. In other words, it rests upon the character of the living God, and trusts Him in the face of every obstacle. Spiritual faith makes its favored possessor judge that the greatest suffering is better than the least sin; yea, it unhesitatingly avows "Thy loving kindness is better than life" (Ps. 63:3).
Likewise, most CHRISTIANS living in CHRISTIAN countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to CHRISTIAN law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect" CHRISTIANS , answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every MUSLIM, MUST make their own personal decision to follow THE QURAN AND THE WORD OF GOD, and they in turn have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is, THE ONE TRUE GOD. This relationship is so personal, they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them, they relate and talk directly to HIM.
Tman,
I don't mean you any harm, and i naw come to you like i know everything,,, but just want you to understand where I a come from....
You see I was not brought up "in church". Quite the contrary: I am into nature and Science. Without empirical evidence, you could not (and still cannot) get me to believe anything.
As a matter of a fact my dad was a partially converted RASTAMAN, and as a youth he is the one that taught me how to reason out a thing,, so we can know the truth of the matter.
At one point, I thought Christianity was really a tool of the slave master to brainwash the masses into submission ( and this is not far from truth as to the intent of the slavemasters). As a result, I steadfastly sought for truth by searching about my roots tru knowledge from AFrica, and the middle east, and learned about Islam, hinduism and nuff other isims and schisms..
yet only When I decided to call upon the name of JESUS CHRIST to empirically prove whether his Words were just vain and empty promises, di I discover the POWER of GOD!!!
So you can study many things out of books, but When you get in touch with the POWER OF THE LIVING ETERNAL GOD, then the proof your knowledge of a thing becomes real and tangible, although it cannot be seen....
So ,,Why are you bringing up comments bout "they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them" All this time we a reason round ya so,, have you ever heard me a talk nonsense bout Hail mary????Me no inna di Hail Mary or pray to idol nonesense,,,!!!!Mi talk to GOD LivIng and Direct, because he is Omniscient, and HIS ears are not short so he can't hear our cries!!!
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Do the math, Friday to Sunday is not 3 days. Me nuh need no "bridge" i.e. Jesus (Pbuh) between me and God, me talk to him pon a direct line.
Tman you're a spritual mad man, how can you have a direct line to God when Isaiah 59:2 said: But your iniquities have separated you from your God? Tman to get a direct line to God you have to go through the Blood of Jesus. Blood of Jesus - What does it mean? The blood of Jesus is the foundation of redemption. Jesus Christ died on the cross, shedding His blood, (and was then resurrected) as the only acceptable payment for our sins. The disciple Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:18-19, “For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.” The Blood of Jesus Christ is absolutely the most precious thing God has offered us.
Every human born has sinned against God and fallen short of His standard (Romans 3:23). We do not and cannot earn salvation by keeping the Old Testament Law or by simply being a good person. We will fail every time; it is in our nature to sin. It is only through God sacrificing His Son Jesus in our place, that we can acquire complete forgiveness. We can all attain this by accepting Jesus as our Savior, and accepting that He shed His blood to atone for the sins of all who repent. The act of communion does not save us, but we honor this wonderful gift from God with communion as a way to remember His sacrifice.
Tman, the Blood of Jesus - Why is this required? In the Old Testament (after Adam’s original sin), God accepted the death of an animal as a substitute for the sinner. The animal’s shed blood was proof that that one life had to be given for another. Life is precious and God places great value on each one of His created beings. This agreement demonstrated that, while blood symbolized death, it also showed that a life was spared. However, this was a temporary covenant. This blood needed to be repeated daily and yearly.
God would later send His only Son providing a new covenant, or New Testament through Jesus Christ. Jesus would die in the place of all sinners. His sacrifice fulfilled completely what the Old Testament covenant meant to. His blood would remove the sins of the world for all who put their faith in Him. This sacrifice would never have to be repeated; it is an eternal covenant.
John the Baptist called Jesus the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29) The Lamb of course, referenced the unblemished animal sacrifice of old. There are many references to sacrificial offerings in the Old Testament. One that may be most familiar is the sprinkling of blood on the Hebrew doorposts when they were held in bondage by the Pharaoh of Egypt. This act provided God’s protection as His curse of the death angel passed through the streets. This curse was just one that God sent down on Pharaoh, moving him to release these Hebrew slaves.
The event was then commemorated in the Hebrew Feast of Passover. It is now recognized as a “type” or foreshadowing of the blood of Jesus. The blood is a powerful, freeing, and protecting provision from God. As one Christian hymn says, “There is power, power, wonder-working power in the precious blood of the Lamb.” If you have asked Jesus to be Lord of your life, then you too have applied the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts of your heart. He is covering your heart, and your life with his protection and ever-lasting forgiveness of sin.
Blood of Jesus - How is this possible? It is possible for everyone to have the protection and forgiveness that the blood of Jesus provides. Regardless of what sins and offenses we have committed against God, He offers this gift to each of us. John 3:17 tells us that Jesus didn’t come to condemn us but to save us.
It is not enough to say we believe in God or know about Him. We must want to know Him personally and accept the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, to receive it. The Bible, God’s Holy Word, says that no one can enter heaven or get to the Father except through the Son (John 14:6) And in John 6:40, Jesus says that all who believe in Him will receive everlasting life -- with Him! We are only asked to believe (have faith), repent (turn from sin), receive (salvation through Jesus), confess Him, and transfer ownership of our lives to Him. If you have never asked Jesus into your life, won’t you ask Him now?
Wich Jesus are we talking about?,check out the book of Acts :5:30 and 13:29; The God of our Fathers raised Jesus from the dead --- whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.13:29, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb, bearing in mind that the bible also uses symbolic language.
In the Holy Quran, the family of Amran, speaking of Jesus, and he will speak to the people when in the cradle and of old age, and he will be one of the good ones, and he will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. Jesus of two thousand years ago did not teach the Torah or the Gospel we hear of his account trough Mathew, Mark, luke and John, neither did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and what is the Book ? is it the Holy Quran, or is it a new Revelation, and lastly Jesus of 2000 years ago never lived to be of old age he only lived to be 36 years old, the Holy Quran was revealed to THE Prophet, he never taught the book.
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There is no blood offering required because God forgave Adam (PBUH) so there is no "original sin" to make up for: Qur'an:2.37: Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. God had mercy on Adam (PBUH) i.e. He forgave him. Break it down simple: if you have one mango, and no means of getting another one, and gave it your friend, then that is a sacrifice on your part. If you have a mango tree in your yard: no sacrifice. God made Jesus (PBUH) and can make many more like him, so where is the sacrifice if Jesus (PBUH) did die on the cross? Islam believes everyone is born free of sin and are guilty only of the sins that you commit. How can a newborn baby be held responsible for what Adam and Eve (PBUT) did so long ago? God used to accept animal sacrifice from YOUR animals, because YOU are losing something when you kill it. If Jesus (PBUH) was killed on the cross YOU are not losing anything because he did not belong to YOU, so how can it be a sacrifice for YOUR sake? Or in that case we can go on sinning then because "Jesus died for our sins".
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Tman, Muslims in general reject the Christian concept of the fallen nature of humanity which resulted from Adam's rebellious attitude against God. Adam indeed disobeyed God, yet - according to Islam - every person is responsible for his own actions. If a person is righteous and practices what is good, he will be rewarded greatly, but if he deviates from the straight path and commits evil, he will surely suffer in an eternal hell. As the offspring of Adam we could not inherit Adam's sin and be accountable for it in God's eyes. Muslims ask, for example, If a man's arm is amputated, does that mean that his son will be born with one arm? And, by the same analogy, How can Adam's descendants inherit Adam's sin? Moreover, does the justice of God decree that children should bear the iniquities of their forefathers? These questions have often been raised to negate any possible need for a divine incarnation and/or redemptive act such as Christians see in the cross of Christ. Christians agree that if anyone is righteous and practices only good, he will be rewarded with heaven, but they also maintain that none except Christ meets that criterion. All others have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God because they inherited a sinful nature from Adam. For them divine intervention was an inevitable necessity for the redemption of fallen and sinful human beings. If we are really interested in probing the depth of this spiritual understanding of the fallen nature of mankind, we must examine objectively the story of that fall both in Islam and in Christianity.
Because of space limitations I will not attempt to quote all the verses cited in the Qur'an and the Bible which deal with this issue but rather select the most significant references which will highlight points under discussion and provide us with a deeper insight into the subject.
It is stated in the Qur'an, Sura (Chapter) 2:36, concerning Adam's disobedience:
Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get out of the state of (felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity among yourselves; on earth will be your dwelling place, and your means of livlihood for a time." In the commentary of the Jalalayn on this verse we read:
We said: "Get ye down" to the earth; that is, you and your offspring still contained within you. "among yourselves" means some of your offspring will harbor enmity for some others because of your oppression towards each other. This means that God cast Adam and Eve and all those who were yet to be born to them in future generations out of paradise as a penalty for the disobedience of their parents and thus all mankind, represented in Adam and Eve, were punished.
If we scrutinize the details of the story of the fall closely, we will realize that the consequences were more serious than the mere action of punishment. As a result of this rebellion against God, a drastic change occurred in human nature. The Qur'an indicates that "all of you will become hostile to each other." This means that sin has entered the world and has created a new state of life. Human nature became enslaved to the power of sin and even the entire universe was subjected to a significant modification, for when Adam was settled in paradise God designated him to be the master of the earth, reigning over all its creatures. But as soon as he committed his sin and rebelled against God, that paradisical world in which Adam and Eve dwelt changed completely and became a world of evil, oppression, iniquity and polytheism. Even Adam's repentance did not help him much. Yes, God did accept his repentance and forgave him (according to the Qur'an - see verse 37) but neither Adam nor his descendants were able to return to paradise nor even to find it again. Since then suffering, misery, and hostility have dominated man's life.
`Abdullah Yusuf `Ali, a translator of the Qur'an into English, comments on this verse:
Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind and the sexes go together in all spiritual matters. This is a sound statement. Adam was, at the time, the representative of mankind when he committed his sin. Thus, when he fell, his offspring fell with him.
There are a few other verses in the Qur'an which denote the responsibility of Adam as the representative of the human race. For example, in Sura 7:172-173 we read:
When God drew forth from children of Adam - from his loins - their descendants and made them testify concerning themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?" They said: "Yea! We do testify! (This), lest you should say on the day of judgment: 'Of this we were never mindful.' Or lest you should say: 'Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them; wilt thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?'" In the commentary of the Jalalayn we read the following interpretation:
He (God) drew forth each one of them from the loins of the other back to Adam, generation after generation in the form they will take when they are born. They were so numerous like the ants in Nu'man (a mountain) in the day of `Arafa. He erected in front of them the evidences of His deity and installed in them brains and made them testify concerning themselves. Muhammad Farid Wagdi in his commentary on these verses, says:
Remember that your God drew forth from the loins of the children of Adam their offspring in the same form they will take (when they are born) century after century and erected in front of them the evidences of His deity and installed in their brains the capacity to make them recognize these evidences. Thus they were elevated to the level of those who were told: "Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes." Thus their full knowledge of it and their being deeply rooted in it made them, so to speak, witnesses, lest they say in the Day of Judgment: "Of this (that is, their knowledge of God) we were never mindful." Or they say: "Our fathers have taken false gods, thus we followed them. Wilt thou destroy us because of the coeds of the futile people?" `Abdullah Yusuf `Ali goes one step farther in his understanding of the above verse. He says:
The words of the text refer to the descendants of Adam; i.e., to all humanity, born or unborn, without any limit of time. Adam's seed carries on the existence of Adam and succeeds to his spiritual heritage. Humanity as such has a corporate aspect. This is a clear confirmation of the deputyship of Adam for all mankind. According to the aforementioned comments, God performed a miracle in which He drew forth the posterity of Adam who were yet to be born up to the Day of Judgment to make each one of them testify concerning themselves and bound each individual by a covenant. Then He replaced them in Adam's loins.
This interpretation is not foreign to Islamic theology. In fact Ibn `Abbas transmits to us Muhammad's interpretation of the text of these two verses:
God took the pledge from the loins of Adam in Nu'man; i.e., `Arafa. He drew forth all his posterity which He created and dispersed them in His presence like ants. He talked to them and said: "Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, we testify!" Lest they say in the Day of Judgment, "Of this (i.e., the knowledge of God) we were never mindful." Ibn `Abbas also said:
In the beginning when God cast Adam to earth He sent him to a desert in the land of India. Then he rubbed his loins and drew forth every soul he decided to create until the Day of Judgment. That took place in Nu'man which is behind mount `Arafa. God then talked to them end enabled them to speak. He took from them the pledge that they will worship him and never associate anything with Him. (He did that) after He installed in them brains and granted for them their sustenance and determined the length of their life-span, their afflictions, and so forth. Then He replaced them in Adam's loins. Thus the Day of Judgment will never come until everyone who gave his pledge is born. (See also Al-Khazin II, 191.). Abu Hurayra also quoted Muhammad's saying:
Thus Adam disobeyed and his descendants disobeyed likewise. Adam forgot and ate from the tree; likewise his offspring also forgot. Adam sinned and his posterity sinned too! (Quoted by Tarmadhi and others.) It is obvious from these verses, interpretations and traditions that Adam is recognized by Muslims as the representative of his offspring and that the Qur'an alludes to this. Thus Adam, by his disobedience and sin, made all his descendants sin too. Undoubtedly corruption permeated the essence of Adam's nature and caused a drastic change in its components, in some respects similar to the way a genetic change may produce a new breed or significantly alter an old breed. This change in human nature was transmitted to Adam's seed who inherited his fallen nature and his propensities.
In Sahih al-Bukhari (Vol. 3:1213, No. 3156)* there is further evidence of the veracity of this interpretation. We read:
We were told on the authority of Qays Ibn Hafasa ... on the authority of Muhammad that God says to the one who suffers least among the people of hell: "If you possess all the wealth of the world with which to redeem (yourself, would you do that?)" He said, "Yes." Then God said, "I had asked something which is much easier than this while you were still in the loins of Adam: Not to associate other gods with Me. Yet you have refused and worship false gods." Therefore, we must ask, What happened to this posterity which pledged to worship God and not to associate others with Him so that it failed to fulfill its promise and broke its pledge? The only conclusion which explains this tragic failure is that it inherited the fallen nature of Adam, the father of mankind, who, in his capacity as the representative of man, has failed to live up to God's expectations. How else can the Muslim explain the observable fact that all human beings continue to repeat Adam's sin of rebellion against the known will of God?
There is another tradition ascribed to Muhammad based on the authority of `Abdullah which says:
Whenever a soul is killed unjustly the first son of Adam (Cain) would bear part of its blood (responsibility) because he was the first who decreed assassination. (Al-Bukhari 3:3157. See also nos. 6473 & 6890.) Thus if Cain, according to Muhammad, was morally responsible for every soul unjustly killed, why should not Adam be responsible for bequeathing the fallen nature of man to his seed, to those who carried his own characteristics and genes? Was it not Adam the first man who first disobeyed God? Yes, and so corruption has permeated the nature of man through his first parent.
The Qur'an declares in Sura 5:32:
On that account we ordained for the children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. `Ali explains:
To kill or seek to kill an individual because he represents an ideal is to kill all who uphold the ideal. On the other hand, to save an individual life in the same circumstances is to save a whole community. In light of the above quotations we can see that no instruction or teaching or guidance will ever enable us to restore the pristine essence of sinless human nature as it was manifested in Paradise. The essential change which is required is a change in the very nature of mankind. All the prophets have failed to generate any change in human nature or in man's character. Yes they called people to worship God only and to live according to the Ten Commandments, but that call could not change people. They knew the shortcomings of man and that he is bound by chains of sin. They realized also that all their teaching had failed to produce salvation because no one was able to meet God's standards nor His righteous demands. In this respect the Bible and the Qur'an agree.
The Bible asserts the existence of original sin which we have all inherited from Adam. We read in Romans 5:12:
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, so death spread to all men, because all sinned. Thus the progeny of Adam carried forward all the characteristics of his fallen nature and became subject to the sentence of death. In other words, Adam sinned; therefore all his descendants sinned with him, too. Sin has distorted God's image in man. The Bible asserts that God created man in his own image; i.e., He bestowed on him reason, will, ability of free choice, freedom of conscience, and creativity. But man abused the freedom with which God blessed him and chose to rebel against God in the person of Adam. Soon this rebellious nature dominated the will of mankind and corrupted it. Therefore the fall of Adam was not a temporary defect but rather a determinative event which had a tragic impact on the universe. Its effect has afflicted not only individuals but the entire human race across the ages. Since this nature became subject to the condemnation of God, man was destined to suffer in an eternal hell forever because God's holiness does not tolerate sin. "The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This is God's law and justice. Yet, God is LOVE. He created man in His own image which He would never dishonor for His own sake. Thus He planned a way of salvation for mankind. His plan is the only straight path which delivers man from his dilemma. God's holiness demanded justice while His love pleaded for mercy and forgiveness. In order to meet the requirements of His holiness, justice, and love, the living Word of God, Christ, with all His perfection, righteousness and goodness became incarnate because of His great love for all people and suffered in Himself the consequences of their sin. Man has failed to save himself from the bondage of his fallen nature; therefore the righteous One, the Christ, who is free from all iniquity, determined to pay the price for our redemption. So He, the Living Word of God, became flesh and was crucified; that is, God's judgment fell upon Jesus who by His own choice and because of His love granted to us the gift of freedom and forgiveness of sin. The Bible says:
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (II Corinthians 5:19) In other words, Christ's voluntary incarnation and His death on the cross opened wide the door of freedom for us because we became righteous in God's eyes through Jesus Christ has paid the price on our behalf by His atoning death. Our only obligation is to accept Him by faith. His sacrificial act of love enables Him to restore our pristine nature which was distorted by sin. II Corinthians 5:17 says:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. The "new things" include our fallen human nature which is formed anew. It is now liberated, by the riving power manifested in Christ's death end resurrection, from its old dispositions. Christ has restored to it its beauty, purity and the greatness which it lost as the result of the fall. This restoration was not possible without God's intervention. That is why the verse above says: "New things have come."
The act of creation cannot be performed apart from Christ. Christ Himself realized the impossibility of man's deliverance from his inevitable destiny without divine intervention. This is why He said:
Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28) Christ did not reguest that sinners should free themselves first, then come unto Him. He knew perfectly well that man is not able to justify himself before God. This is an impossible task. So he summoned them unto Him, as they were, burdened with sins, in order to recreate them anew. Then, and only then, they will be justified because the righteous Christ atoned for them by His death, for:
He who knew no sin was made to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (II Corinthians 5:25) Or, as the apostle Peter says:
He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. (I Peter 2:24) John, the apostle, reiterates the same idea as he states:
And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:5) The phrase "take away sins" was not possible without an atoning act which meets all the requirements of God's justice and holiness. The Bible summaries this basic fact when it states:
... without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22) The true greatness of this redemptive act is that Jesus was not compelled to carry out this responsibility, but He voluntarily gave Himself, of His own free will, to save us from the condemnation of eternal hell. In Hebrews 9:14 we read:
Of how much more value is the blood of Christ Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God. Even Christ Himself said publicly:
For this reason the Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from me, but I lay it down on my own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. (John 10:17-18) In short, the fallen nature of man which he inherited from Adam is a fact recognized by both Islam and Christianity. But this nature could not be changed by guidance, instruction or teaching because such a change requires an internal transformation which touches the depths of the human soul. Doctrines have failed to produce such change because they lack spiritual power. Man's endeavors can never acquire God's favor or reach the level required by His justice. Who among us, for instance, can comply completely with the Ten Commandments? What prophet is there who did not commit sin and did not need to ask for forgiveness? The founder of Islam himself attested, as recorded in more than one sound tradition, that he asked for forgiveness seventy times a day. If the prophets from Adam to the latest prophets of the Old Testament have failed to meet God's requirements without offering a sin sacrifice, how could any ordinary man elevate himself to a level which pleases God???
For this reason the sinless, perfect and righteous One became incarnate to liberate us from the bonds of iniquity and has elevated us to a higher level and made us acceptable to God. The divine love was embodied in Christ on the cross. The Bible epitomizes the majesty and greatness of God's love in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. By the merits of the Living Word of God we are liberated from our fallen nature which we inherited from our forefather, Adam, and therefore we are justified in the presence of God as we become new creatures in Christ
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We do not deny the existience of sin as all the above tries to prove. What we say is every person will bear the guilt of HIS OWN sin and can be forgiven by GOD without the need for Jesus (PBUH) to die on the cross. I like how you are always trying to present the Islamic argument. That is my job. You should stick to presenting the Christian argument.
Here is how Muslims view "atonement". Does God need a "blood atonement"?
"And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion." Mark 2:1-12
When Paul came with his new and innovative ideas on how to improve upon the message of Jesus (pbuh), he began by dropping specific commandments. This continued until he decided that his alleged "visions" were sufficient authority to completely discard all of the commandments which both prophet Moses as well as prophet Jesus (pbut) both observed very strictly throughout their lives. The fact that both of these prophets are well known to have spent their lives commanding their followers to uphold these laws and commandments is casually brushed aside by "St. Paul." His "visions," we are told, are higher in authority than the commands of Jesus (pbuh) during his lifetime.
Once Paul was finished nullifying the law of God through Moses and Jesus and simplifying the religion for them he began to get many converts. This is because his "Christianity" only required "faith" and no actual work (Romans 3:28). But faith without work was too flimsy a concept to build one's whole way of life around. Paul needed a stupendous and monumental event to have faith IN order for his claims to be accepted by anyone. Thus the original sin and the atonement were born.
Paul claimed that God Almighty had created mankind inherently sinful and as inheritors of "the sin of Adam." He claimed that this hereditary burden was so great that the creator of all of the heavens and earth, and yes, the creator of the concepts of sin and forgiveness themselves, could not forgive this sin. This, in Paul's estimation, was beyond God's capabilities. Paul preached that the only way the creator of the heavens and the earth and everything in-between could forgive this sin was to have his sinless "only begotten son" beaten, spat on, stripped, whipped, cut, humiliated, and finally killed in the most gruesome and drawn-out way known to man at the time; by hanging on the cross, and thus becoming a curse upon mankind.
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree" Galatians 3:13:
Only then would God be able to forgive this sin.
However, if we were to read the words of Jesus (pbuh) in Mark 2:9 we would find that Jesus (pbuh) informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.
However, we already know that God Almighty the "Father" of all believers
"And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"
Matthew 23:9
We further know that God Almighty is greater in power than all humans, inluding Jesus:
"..my Father is greater than I", John 14:28
Finally, we know that Jesus (pbuh) gets his power from God:
"I can of mine own self do nothing...," John 5:30
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"Acts 2:22
So it stands to reason that what is easy for Jesus (pbuh) is trivial and inconsequential for God Almighty Himself. Thus, if Jesus (pbuh) can forgive sins with the utmost ease simply by uttering the words "your sins are forgiven you," then it is well within the ability of God Almighty Himself to do the same simply by willing it, even without uttering a word. Indeed, we can even read in the Bible:
"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy." Micah 7:18
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again." Psalm 78:38-39
"I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25
Well, how then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a sinless individual before He can do this? To get the answer let us read the Bible:
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin." Jeremiah 36:3
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah." Psalm 32:5
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..." Proverbs 16:6
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Ezekiel 18:21-30
"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:6-8
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:11-18
This is indeed the teachings of Islam. In the Qur'an, we are told that mankind were created to inhabit the earth. When Adam and Eve were first created, they were allowed to abide in the garden. However, soon after they ate from the tree and God sent them down to earth. Once Adam realized his error he was remorseful and repentant, however, he was the first man. He did not know how to repent or how to seek forgiveness. So, God Almighty provided him with a revelation teaching him how to ask for God's forgiveness. Adam did so and God accepted Adam's repentance. God did not mandate gruesome and torturous blood sacrifices of the sinless or anything else. He simply forgave Adam's sin. We can read this story in the Qur'an:
"And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise, and eat from it freely with pleasure and delight wherever you will, but do not approach this tree or you both will be of the wrongdoers. But Satan made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), such that he expelled them from that in which they were. And we said: Decend, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment until a time. Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He pardoned him. Verily! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. We said: Decend, all of you, from hence; but whenever there comes to you a guidance from Me, then whosoever follows My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. But they who disbelieve and deny our revelations, such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shall abide therein forever" The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):35-39
"Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful." The noble Qur'an, Al-Zumar(39):53
Anas ibn Malik narrated in Mishkat Al-Masabih the following: "Allah's Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh) stated that Allah said, "O Son of Adam, as long as you supplicate to Me and have hope in me I will pardon you in spite of what you have done, and I do not care. O Son of Adam, if your sins were so numerous as to reach the lofty regions of the sky, then you asked My forgiveness, I would forgive you, and I do not care. O Son of Adam, if you were to meet Me with enough sins to fill the earth, then met Me, not associating anything with Me (in worship), I shall greet you with it's equivalent in forgiveness.'"
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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Tman, are you rejecting God's plan of salvation? I need a yes or no answer please.
God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.
You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.Your soul is worth more than all the world.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.
God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth: Pray -- you talk to God. Read your Bible -- God talks to you. Witness -- you talk for God. You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32)
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YOU say its God's plan, but we Muslims have a different view and its contained in the only Book free form errors, the Holy Qur'an, send down to the Prophet Muhhammad (PBUH) and guarded by God Himself from corruption, or "mis-translations'.
A Muslim view: THE "GOD" THAT NEVER WAS Islam is the only religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT God. A perfect God means that there is no sharer in His Nature and His Attributes: "Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an,112:1-4) There has appeared a man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly cherishing the self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert Muslims to Christianity. Because he is a lawyer by profession, he is adept at juggling with words and quoting the Holy Qur'an totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to believe that Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an antithesis of the Absolute perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta'Aala! Thus intent upon reversing the process of Truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Qur'an, 17:81). In this he will never succeed because the process of Truth is irreversible.
TWO REASONS He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, viz: (i) "When we say Jesus is deity (or even God for that matter), we do not make him the Father! He is one with the Father and therefore HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and (ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father". In short, according to him, Jesus is God because He SHARES THE NATURE OF GOD, and HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training. Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can,therefore, NEVER be GOD. We have given the quotations from the Bible withoutcomment, because the Bible speaks for itself! TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND AND INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN! (Note: Unless otherwise stated, all quotations from the Bible are given from the Authorized Version. In our headings and subheadings we have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted commas in order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man that Jesus is God!)
THE BIRTH OF "GOD" "God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh."(Romans, 1:3) "God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke,2:6) which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered."(Revelation, 12:2) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27) The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1) The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3),"and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking,and they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed."(Mark, 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27)
THE FAMILY OF "GOD" "God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him,we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write,Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45) Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this manthis wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew, 13:54-56) THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD" Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40) Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." (Luke, 2:52) "God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42) The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) "God" Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14-15) "God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8) THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) THE MISSION OF "GOD" The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11). "God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12) THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13) A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow."(Mark, 4:38) A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John,11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave."(John, 11:38) A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38) A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy."(Mark, 14:33) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43) THE WARRING "GOD" The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15) The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34) The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke, 22:36) The "GOD" ON THE RUN "God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54) "God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59) THE CAPTURE OF "GOD" A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67) "God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said: "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, he is guilty of death."(Matthew, 26:66) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32) THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD" The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost."(Mark, 15:37) The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33) The Supposed Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered."(Matthew, 27:58) The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59) The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion sawwhat was done, he glorified God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man."(Luke, 23:47) EPILOGUE According to this self-appointed apostle of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i)"HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with this Christian. Either he must prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBAL LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!! He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophecy was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammed (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)!
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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Let me repeat again, Tman, are you rejecting God's plan of salvation? I need a yes or no answer please.
God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.
You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.Your soul is worth more than all the world.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.
God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth: Pray -- you talk to God. Read your Bible -- God talks to you. Witness -- you talk for God. You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32)
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Let ME repeat; YOU believe it is God's plan, but pardon me for having a different set of beliefs.
Holy Qur’an: 17.013 Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
17.014 (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
17.015 Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).
"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" so we dont need Jesus (PBUH) to die for us.
Are YOU sure you are saved? I thought that was up to God to decide. Or are you taking on the power of God too? Again I am confused: you say "God's power will save you" then "You must believe in Jesus to be saved", so God alone cannot save you, He needs "help" from Jesus?. Sorry, I believe in the Power and Mercy of the ONE Almighty God who needs no help, no son, no mother, no trinity to decide who is admitted to Heaven on the Day of Judgment. Commandment 1: I am the Lord thy God, thou shall put no other before me. Hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE Lord. There is no god but Allah (GOD) and Muhammad is His messenger.
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Let ME repeat; YOU believe it is God's plan, but pardon me for having a different set of beliefs.
Holy Qur’an: 17.013 Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
17.014 (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
17.015 Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).
"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" so we dont need Jesus (PBUH) to die for us.
Are YOU sure you are saved? I thought that was up to God to decide. Or are you taking on the power of God too? Again I am confused: you say "God's power will save you" then "You must believe in Jesus to be saved", so God alone cannot save you, He needs "help" from Jesus?. Sorry, I believe in the Power and Mercy of the ONE Almighty God who needs no help, no son, no mother, no trinity to decide who is admitted to Heaven on the Day of Judgment. Commandment 1: I am the Lord thy God, thou shall put no other before me. Hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE Lord. There is no god but Allah (GOD) and Muhammad is His messenger.
All I am asking for is a simple yes or no answer please.
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I believe in God's plan for salvation, but its is not the plan you believe in. Simple enough for you? I have a question for you too that requires a simple answer: Christians who claim to be reading form the same Book can’t even agree among themselves about the nature of Jesus (PBUH). Which one of the sects do you belong to? The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man and God. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man only. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man some of the time and God some of the time. I need an answer. These verses are for you. Qur’an 22.019: These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. 5.014: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
If you are an Unitarain, like the first “Christians” before Paul, there is some hope for you: 5. 66: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
But for those who differ and dispute over the nature of Jesus (PBUH): 5. 14: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
And for those who don’t believe in the Final Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) 4.150: Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- 4.151: They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating 4.152: To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And for those who claim “mother of God” and crucifiction: 4.156: That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; 4.157: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4.158: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4.159: And there is none of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
