Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1257
Loc: London, England
Offline
Originally Posted By: Noel2000
If Muslims don’t believe what Jesus says regarding his crucifixion and subsequent resurrection then what makes them think that they can lie to us and perpetrate the idea that they would believe that Jesus claimed to be God if he explicitly said “I AM GOD”? They won’t.
Still peddling that lame old answer? Jesus (PBUH) never said it so we dont have to prove anything to you. Basic maths: Friday to Sunday is not three days. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is one day. Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown is two days. They did not use the Western calendar at the time of Jesus (PBUH), and they count the days beginning at sundown not midnight. The sign of Jonah was that he WAS ALIVE and not dead, and not that he was in the whale for three days. The Qur'an teaches it only APPEARED he was killed, but God would not suffer his prophet to such a death and he was raised up ALIVE
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach
Offline
Originally Posted By: Tman
PS: thanks for the quotes from Jesus (PBUH) himself "Son of man" not son of God.
Exactly,
Jesus said he did not come to seek is own glory, so you and your fool fool question that you keep repeating: "when did Jesus say I am God worship me" Jesus, although fully God and fully man, he didn't come to be worshipped as God or big up himself like you Tman, he came as a humble servant, so why would he want to make such a declaration that you muslims keep peddling? that would have defeated the whole purpose of is coming. The most amazing thing about Jesus is the example he set as a humble servant God. On the night before he died, Jesus met with his disciples to share the Passover meal. He took a towel and basin of water and washed the dust from the streets off of their feet. This was normally the task of the lowest servant in the house. Peter was offended that Jesus would stoop so low. When he finished, Jesus explained, "You call me `Teacher' and `Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them." (John 13:13-17 NIV) Jesus set the example of humbling ourselves to serve others, but washing feet was nothing compared to the example he set the following day. Jesus suffered the pain and humiliation of death on a cross. He sacrificed his life to pay the penalty for our sins, so we could be reconciled to God -------------------------------------------------------------- Fool say in their heart Rasta your God is dead But I and I know,Jah Jah Dread it shall be Dreader Dread Jah Live children yeah Jah Jah Live children yeah Jah Live children yeah jah Jah Live children yeah.
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach
Offline
Trinity, Atonement & Blood Sacrifice XXVIII : "The Islamic Perspective"
Introduction
In this segment, Dr. Badawi attempts to explain the Islamic concept of salvation. According to Dr. Badawi, there is no need for a blood sacrifice, being good and performing good deeds will cause God to forgive us. However, when we look a little closer, we find that the Qur'an actually preaches a form of pre-destination which is based entirely on the whims of God.
Host: Could you discuss the Islamic doctrines of sin and atonement. If Muslims do not accept the Pauline doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice, does that mean that they take sin less seriously? Jamal Badawi: The existence of sin is a matter that Muslims take seriously. The Qur'an says that one of God's attributes is the Holy One. We must try our best to purify ourselves and seek God's help. Sura 53:32 :
Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil. Issue 1: God is perfectly Holy and pure. How can we cleanse ourselves to the point where we can honestly say that we deserve to be in His presence? Whether we commit a "great sin" or a "small sin", a sin is a sin! We are not fit to stand before a perfectly Holy God.
Issue 2: As we have discussed in earlier segments, God set up the model of redemption through blood sacrifice in the Old Testament which used atonement means to remove sin. In the Old Testament, the blood sacrifice of various animals offered by the high priests, were for the temporary atonement of the Nation of Israel. Only the people in that place and time received the atonement from the blood sacrifice. These sacrifices foreshadowed the real and final atonement made by Jesus. The idea of atonement and blood sacrifice is found throughout the Old and New Testaments and the people who lived during the ministry of Jesus were well aware of this concept. It is interesting that the Qur'an is so quiet concerning a theme which an eternal and unchanging God has stressed for thousands of years.
While we are responsible to try to purify ourselves, it comes only from God Sura 4:49: Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing. It must be emphasized that when God says that He will purify who He pleases, that this is not an arbitrary decision because God is merciful, just and loving. The will of God to purify cannot be separated from His justice.
Unfortunately Dr. Badawi, it is an arbitrary decision according to the Qur'an. Sura 14:4 tells us:
Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. So, God, according to the Qur'an will save, or damn, whomever he pleases and that person in question can do nothing about it. To make matters even worse, God, according to the Qur'an, closes the hearts and minds of those that He who He wishes to damn. Sura 6:125 tells us:
Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; Those whom He wills to leave straying, - he makes their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe. The most serious question is, if we believe this, is how do we know if God is guiding us or leading us down the path to eternal damnation? The Qur'an gives us absolutely no assurance of God's truth or assurance of salvation.
Host: How can salvation be obtained is there a term for being saved? Jamal Badawi: There are some terms in Arabic that are similar to Christianity. Nagaah appears in the Qur'an in Sura 59:
Sura 19:72:
But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees. There are other uses in Sura 40:41, 61:10. There are other terms, in more than 65 places.
If God, according to the Qur'an is so perfectly forgiving and does not demand atonement, then why does the Qur'an say that all Muslims will spend some time in Hell? Sura 19:71-72 :
There will be no one of you who will not enter it (Hell). This was an inevitable decree of your Lord. Afterwards he may save some of the pious, God-fearing Muslims out of the burning fire. Is this any assurance of salvation? God may, or perhaps may not, save you after you have been thrown into Hell?
Host: Does this mean that Muslims believe that salvation can be achieved by good deeds? Jamal Badawi: Christians believe that the difference in Islam is that they believe in salvation by deeds. This is erroneous. The Qur'an says that only through the grace of God can someone be saved. Sura 24:21:
O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things). Muhammad said in the Hadith Sahih Muslim that none of his followers would enter Paradise by their good deeds.
Dr. Badawi makes a point, Muslims believe more in predestination than in good works. Sura 7:179 tells us that God actually created people to burn in Hell:
Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). If we are pre-destined to burn in Hell, no amount of good deeds can save us. Bukhari tells us
(Narrated 'Imran) : I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?' The Prophet said, "Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him to his destined place for which he has been created.' Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 641
There are two conditions according to the Qur'an to receive grace: 1. Correct belief in God, staying away from shirk Sura 4:48:
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. in Sura 4:116
Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). An interesting point, an contradiction, here is that Allah did forgive shirk in the case of Abraham. Sura 4:153 tells us
... Yet they [the Israelites] worshipped the calf even after Clear Signs had come to them; even so We forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority. Sura 5:75 quotes Jesus: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! This is what Muhammad believed and certainly not what Christ said!
2. Try sincerely to translate belief into action and good deeds. When we fall short or ere, the means to correct this is sincere repentance without any need for absolution. But wait, a moment ago we decided that Islam was not a religion of works. How will our works save us if God, according to the Qur'an, has created us to burn in Hell? This contradicts the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith which we mentioned earlier.
Host: Can you give some examples from the Qur'an and Hadith? Jamal Badawi: Sura 53:32:
Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil. Sura 4:110
If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Sura 39:53
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Sura 3:135
And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah?- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. Hadith Kudsi Muhammad said that Allah said that all child of Adam will be forgiven if they call on God.
Another Hadith tells us:
Narrated by Ali: "We were accompanying a funeral procession in Baqi-I-Gharqad. The Prophet came to us and sat and we sat around him. He had a small stick in his hand then he bent his head and started scraping the ground with it. He then said, "There is none among you, and not a created soul, but has place either in Paradise or in Hell assigned for him and it is also determined for him whether he will be among the blessed or wretched." A man said, "O Allah's Apostle! Should we not depend on what has been written for us and leave the deeds as whoever amongst us is blessed will do the deeds of a blessed person and whoever amongst us will be wretched, will do the deeds of a wretched person?" The Prophet said, "The good deeds are made easy for the blessed, and bad deeds are made easy for the wretched." Then he recited the Verses:-- "As for him who gives (in charity) and is Allah-fearing And believes in the Best reward from Allah." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 444
What is the use of asking for forgiveness and performing good deeds if we are already "assigned" to Hell?
Host: Some Christians say that they do not disagree with God's qualities but since God is just, how do we pay for our sins? Jamal Badawi: According to the Unitarians, shedding innocent blood does not achieve this, God could forgive without it. We also pay for our sins in this life. The spiritual part or forgiveness can be achieved through repentance. There are three conditions for repentance:
1. Stop the evil
2. Regret it
3. Try not to do it again
4. If the sin hurt another rights, he should seek forgiveness
God knows that He created us imperfect so He has to forgive us if we are sorry. If we say that blood sacrifice is necessary, then it is not just because God made us imperfect. It would be like a Professor telling a student that he must 100% on everything just to pass, it is not fair or just. In Islam we say that if you do even one good deed, he can get at least a ten fold reward. Muhammad said that my mercy prevails over my wrath.
First of all, can we truly stop sinning? Can we eliminate our sinful nature as humans? Second, the Professor analogy is not very good since none of my Professors are perfect as God is perfect. Only a perfect God can demand perfection since He alone is perfect in every way.
Host: Does this mean that Muslims are assured of salvation? Jamal Badawi: In one sense yes. There are two necessities: the believer must be humble and does not say that he earned salvation but by the will of God and His grace. The person must be assured of the mercy of God and his justice that he is saved by correct belief and right deeds. There is no undue uncertainty except in the healthy degree that he is steadfast to his death. There are assurances in the Qur'an that they will be in paradise.
No dear brothers and sisters, you have no assurance! Remember Sura 19:71-72 :
There will be no one of you who will not enter it (Hell). This was an inevitable decree of your Lord. Afterwards he may save some of the pious, God-fearing Muslims out of the burning fire. Muhammad said in the Hadith:
"By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me." Vol. 5:266 Is this any assurance of salvation? God may, or perhaps may not, save you after you have been thrown into Hell? How do you know? Can you be absolutely sure that you have done a sufficient number of good deeds in your life? Do you believe that your deeds, or my deeds, can please an all perfect God? No one knows when our last day on this planet will end. If that day happens to be today, are you ready to answer to God? As a Christian, I know that I am a sinner, I do not deserve anything from God. However, God sent His Son into this world to pay the terrible price for my sins and for your sins - all that we need to do is to accept Him.
Host: Can you give us some examples? Jamal Badawi:The Muslim has trust that God is just. In Sura 18:49:
And the Book (of Deeds) will be placed (before you); and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is (recorded) therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" They will find all that they did, placed before them: And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice. The Qur'an says that God has no interest in punishing us. Sura 4:147
What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe? Nay, it is Allah that recogniseth (all good), and knoweth all things. Muhammad came for mercy Sura 11:2
(It teacheth) that ye should worship none but Allah. (Say): "Verily I am (sent) unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad tidings: Sura 2:112:
Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Can we honestly believe in these promise from a God who, according to other verses, actually creates people to burn in Hell?
Some Christians say that salvation is more than forgiveness, but the changing of attitudes and the Qur'an says that strengthening our relationship to God Sura 64:11: No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah: and if any one believes in Allah, (Allah) guides his heart (aright): for Allah knows all things. Sura 47:17:
But to those who receive Guidance, He increases the (light of) Guidance, and bestows on them their Piety and Restraint (from evil). Once again, the damnation of any person is a calamity, which happens on the "leave of Allah". Please remember the words of God:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.John 3:16
Mr. slipery read what i wrote, i was not denying Jesus, just pointing out the fact that the wicked have used his name to shield their dirty practise, read up on the history of John Hawkins and the slave ship Jesus.Look up the word fundamental, before you start making a fool of yourself
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach
Offline
Originally Posted By: Marklon
Mr. slipery read what i wrote, i was not denying Jesus, just pointing out the fact that the wicked have used his name to shield their dirty practise, read up on the history of John Hawkins and the slave ship Jesus.Look up the word fundamental, before you start making a fool of yourself
Marklon, I am so sorry that you don't know what fundamentalist means, let me give you the defintition. A fundamentalist is a person of any religion who espouses conservative theological, political, and social views. But the more you post Marklon the more you sound like an Islamic Fundamentalists. A Islamic Fundamentalists are Muslims who believe that The Qur'an should be used as a guide to take over the world in the name of Islam. Islamic Fundamentalists or Islamism is when all the world is run off: 1. Islamic political systems 2. Islamic legal systems 3. Islamic economic systems 3. Islamic social values systems This is all based around The Qur'an or Sharia Law. Despite the The Quran being plagiarised off The Bible, it is truly a disgusting system that in today's society has many women raped and killed. Islamic Fundamentalists are Muslims who want one thing. World Power. World Dominance and everything that comes with it. Basically an Islamic Fundamentalist is a Muslim that has lived in the stone-age all their life and is now suffering for it, but now wants to control the world even though they barely know how to control a sheep herd. Islamic Fundamentalists want to bring the world back into a stone-age way where instead of governments running the world, the Islamic Faith will run the world in every aspect of the way. But Jesus can Deliver you Marklon, trust the Bible, it's the word of Almighty God, it's infallable. Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1257
Loc: London, England
Offline
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
Tman - Of those 1.4 Billion peaceful law-abiding Muslims, how many of them are free to question their traditional beliefs without fear of castigation and death??? I would estimate that over 90% of Muslims are living in a fearful and closed society that binds them to the muslim belief by tradition rather than enlightenment. Most of them just recite a verse comitted to memory, and are totally void of understanding of a chance to call on the name of the LIVING ALMIGHTY GOD, SO HIS POWER can be divinely revealed to them.
It is for this reason why they hold the people in bondage, and the same reason why they forbid the GOSPEL of CHRIST to be preached itheir country (if they were peaceful, they would not force people to adhere to islam with the threat of death if they don't.In fact Most true Muslims who MEET the LIVING JESUS CHRIST in person will begin to understand that HE is NOT DEAD, but HE IS ALIVE and WELL!, and HIS word is true today as it was when he first fulfilled it 2000 years ago...
You also claim Jesus came only to the Jews: Well, this is not true, because he came initially to His family of people first, and after they (as a nation) refused to believe him (as a nation), he accepted whoever would believe him, no matter their nationality...He came unto his own and his own believed him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on his name.(John 1:11-12)
Again, I being a practical man, see that your claims that Jesus never said "I am God" is not true: Jesus the Christ did not reveal himself to most people in his time that He IS God, but the Jews who did not believe Him asked him the Question outrigh. His answer is below:
Here is the scripture that documents him saying exactly this:
John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
You should read the whole passage, and it would conflict with Everything you believe as a Muslim. I suppose you would have also stoned The Lord as the other Jews did.
Bless.
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (11/30/0901:58 PM) Edit Reason: spelling
Registered: 04/26/01
Posts: 4643
Loc: Inglewood CA
Offline
As I read this debate knowing what I know about Christianity and what I know about Islam. I dare not put it in words because the backlash would be too fierce so I sit back and watch this clip and I must say that at minute 7:00 to 7:30 I feel exactly what this guy must be going through as I face it daily.
but I must and I mean must carry on to save my people from the yoke and bondage of religion and bring them back to what they have always been and that is spiritual
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach
Offline
Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
Tman, the only problem that I have with you is that you lack understanding in what you read. I was not saying that all Muslims are Islamic Fundamentalist, I was telling Marklon that he sounds like a Islamic Fundamentalist, I didn't say all Muslims are. I play Cricket every once per week with some wonderful Muslims from Pakistan, they are peaceful law-abiding citizens and they are my friends, and there is no way I would brand those guys as Islamic Fundamentalist, just like I wouldn't brand you that way, but, Marklon yes. ------------------------------------------------------------- Philippians 2:9-11 (King James Version)
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: New York, NY
Offline
Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
Tman - Of those 1.4 Billion peaceful law-abiding Muslims, how many of them are free to question their traditional beliefs without fear of castigation and death??? I would estimate that over 90% of Muslims are living in a fearful and closed society that binds them to the muslim belief by tradition rather than enlightenment. Most of them just recite a verse comitted to memory, and are totally void of understanding of a chance to call on the name of the LIVING ALMIGHTY GOD, SO HIS POWER can be divinely revealed to them.
It is for this reason why they hold the people in bondage, and the same reason why they forbid the GOSPEL of CHRIST to be preached itheir country (if they were peaceful, they would not force people to adhere to islam with the threat of death if they don't.In fact Most true Muslims who MEET the LIVING JESUS CHRIST in person will begin to understand that HE is NOT DEAD, but HE IS ALIVE and WELL!, and HIS word is true today as it was when he first fulfilled it 2000 years ago...
You also claim Jesus came only to the Jews: Well, this is not true, because he came initially to His family of people first, and after they (as a nation) refused to believe him (as a nation), he accepted whoever would believe him, no matter their nationality...He came unto his own and his own believed him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on his name.(John 1:11-12)
Again, I being a practical man, see that your claims that Jesus never said "I am God" is not true: Jesus the Christ did not reveal himself to most people in his time that He IS God, but the Jews who did not believe Him asked him the Question outrigh. His answer is below:
Here is the scripture that documents him saying exactly this:
John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
You should read the whole passage, and it would conflict with Everything you believe as a Muslim. I suppose you would have also stoned The Lord as the other Jews did.
Bless.
Bolivar, I think you are mixing up culture with the religion. What you describe is more cultural than religious.
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1257
Loc: London, England
Offline
Bolivar: Have you ever lived in a Muslim country like I did? I did not see any one holding a gun over the heads of millions of people who went to the mosques on Fridays.I don't see anyone holding a gun at the millions of westerners who are turning to Islam every day to make it the world's fastest growing religion. Don't come with Western propogada when you post on this site. Think for yourself. "Emancipate yourself..." Bob.
Answer to "I am" Jesus said "I am" so he must be God
Once again, the claim in John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus (pbuh) was present before Abraham (pbuh) is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon (pbuh) (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham (pbuh), but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
Noel you are a real idiot, i wrote about how the Pirate Hawkins used a slave ship named Jesus, and that makes me a fanatic, you only use those words because the slave masters chrildren said it think for your self, and you can only repeat what you read, but you lack substance, go check up on history and maybe you can learn something of your history
Bolivar, I think you are mixing up culture with the religion. What you describe is more cultural than religious.
Technic,in most Muslim countries, Islam is the Religion which guides, the Civil law, and the most important aspect of these countries cultural identities
Therefore, it is almost impossible to separate the religion of these countries from the cultural practices, because the islamic religion is used as justification for the cultural practices,,,
it is the same thing as asking a rastaman to separate his religiois beliefs from his cultural heritage: they bothe go hand in hand:
My point is simply that Most Muslims contries forbid other religions being taught to their people, and in addition, makes it punishable by death to believe anything contrary what Islam dictates. For Example, if I were living anywhere in Arabia, Pakistan, Afganistan or Iran, and my Family were Muslim by religious tradition, and I started believing anything other than what Islam conforms to, i would be under the threat of death in most of these societies, and be considered an infidel. Most islamic states are not tolerant of anything other than muslim beliefs, and they have instituted a very strict set of civil laws to force adherance to islam. My point is that you should not have to force any religion on any person by using the guise of culture. Most people in these islamic society peacefully submit to islam just for that reason: they are peaceful people and they don't have any other knowledge available: Moreover, the implied threat of reprisal, and the undercurrent of cultural rejection is strong enough to dissuade most people from seeking Knowledge other than the information they are taught by their mullahs and clerics. Let me just ask 1 question: If Islam is a true representation of God, God will back up his WORD with His Power. HE will confirm it among all people as a sign that it holds truth.
I can go into any Muslim country, and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you will see blind people miraculously healed, and you will see the sick recover, and you will see them that are filled with demonic possesions get delivered, and you will see the burdens of them that Believe on him get relieved. In otherwords, GOD will back up his Word that the testimony of Jesus Christ is true.
You know why it is against the CIVIL law to Preach against Islam in islamic countries???
Because most fear the power of Christ, and when he Begins to reveal himself to them that Believe on his name, that he is ALIVE and holds the key of life, then a lot of the Muslims beliefs will be proven erroneous.
so they keep the people in spiritual, religious and cultural bondage>>
You see mi???
Bless.
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (12/02/0902:19 PM) Edit Reason: Capitalization
Bolivar: Have you ever lived in a Muslim country like I did? I did not see any one holding a gun over the heads of millions of people who went to the mosques on Fridays.I don't see anyone holding a gun at the millions of westerners who are turning to Islam every day to make it the world's fastest growing religion. Don't come with Western propogada when you post on this site. Think for yourself. "Emancipate yourself..." Bob.
Tman: Do i have to hold a gun to your head to make you follow the traffic laws???Likewise, most muslims living in muslim countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to islamic law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect". Most muslims when questioned about why they are muslim, answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every Born again, spirit filled Christian MUST make their own personal decision to follow Christ, and they in turn Have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is.
Originally Posted By: Tman
Answer to "I am" Jesus said "I am" so he must be God
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
Tman, You just showed me that you are not a well thinking person: I am going to show you from your own example of the context of what he said to beggar that the " I AM " in response to the Jews are two completely different sentences,, and therfore have two completely different meanings:
But before that, let me ask you how many times the Phrase "I AM " is written in the bible and how may times the context is as an auxilary VERB or ADVERB? The answer is HUNDREDS. Let me ask you again how many time the words "I AM " is used as a NOUN to PURELY describe "something" or someone?
The answer is two(2). Once in Exodus, when GOD revealed himself to Moses in the Burning bush, and once in the Book of John, when Jesus descrbed who he IS to the JEWS, by answering a direct question.
Jesus had many times before that incident said " I AM " when speaking to people. But not once did the Jews throw stones at him. Your own aguments above give testimony to that point. However, in this last statement, when he described himself to them simply as "I AM",, they began stoning him...
Now why didn't they stone him before??? Also why didn't they stone anyone that used the words" I AM " without any thing to clarify it??? the answer is simply that The context in which the term is used justifies what it means,,,,
in essence, the Jews Knew That JESUS was describing him self as the SAME "I AM" that told Moses in the burning bush "I AM"...as a result they stoned him. According to them, He was making himselg GOD, and at his crucifixixion, the high priests accused him of this and he DID NOT DENY IT!!!!
As to your question as to why Jesus never told anyone to worship him, ,,,it is simple....he EXPLICITLY told all his disciples that they should NEVER worship ANY Man but Only God. Yet, at the same time, the bible has at least 10 accounts of People Worshipping JESUS CHRIST, and he NEVER ONCE stopped them!!!!!How do you reason this point?????
Check it again!!!!
Bless.
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (12/02/0902:14 PM) Edit Reason: Grammar
Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: New York, NY
Offline
Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
Originally Posted By: Technic
Bolivar, I think you are mixing up culture with the religion. What you describe is more cultural than religious.
Technic,in most Muslim countries, Islam is the Religion which guides, the Civil law, and the most important aspect of these countries cultural identities
Therefore, it is almost impossible to separate the religion of these countries from the cultural practices, because the islamic religion is used as justification for the cultural practices,,,
it is the same thing as asking a rastaman to separate his religiois beliefs from his cultural heritage: they bothe go hand in hand:
My point is simply that Most Muslims contries forbid other religions being taught to their people, and in addition, makes it punishable by death to believe anything contrary what Islam dictates. For Example, if I were living anywhere in Arabia, Pakistan, Afganistan or Iran, and my Family were Muslim by religious tradition, and I started believing anything other than what Islam conforms to, i would be under the threat of death in most of these societies, and be considered an infidel. Most islamic states are not tolerant of anything other than muslim beliefs, and they have instituted a very strict set of civil laws to force adherance to islam. My point is that you should not have to force any religion on any person by using the guise of culture. Most people in these islamic society peacefully submit to islam just for that reason: they are peaceful people and they don't have any other knowledge available: Moreover, the implied threat of reprisal, and the undercurrent of cultural rejection is strong enough to dissuade most people from seeking Knowledge other than the information they are taught by their mullahs and clerics. Let me just ask 1 question: If Islam is a true representation of God, God will back up his WORD with His Power. HE will confirm it among all people as a sign that it holds truth.
I can go into any Muslim country, and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you will see blind people miraculously healed, and you will see the sick recover, and you will see them that are filled with demonic possesions get delivered, and you will see the burdens of them that Believe on him get relieved. In otherwords, GOD will back up his Word that the testimony of Jesus Christ is true.
You know why it is against the CIVIL law to Preach against Islam in islamic countries???
Because most fear the power of Christ, and when he Begins to reveal himself to them that Believe on his name, that he is ALIVE and holds the key of life, then a lot of the Muslims beliefs will be proven erroneous.
so they keep the people in spiritual, religious and cultural bondage>>
You see mi???
Bless.
Still must disagree. Why is it that Muslims in the Western World do not behave like that? because the culture is different.
By Olivia Sterns, CNN December 2, 2009 12:02 p.m. EST Ethiopian domestic workers attend church services in Beirut, Lebanon.STORY HIGHLIGHTS 10 maids die in seven weeks, all suicides or falls from high buildings HRW: abusive work conditions, isolation and lack of recourse are causes 200,000 foreign maids work in Lebanon -- one for every four families Poor regulation of domestic labor and racism conspire against maids London, England (CNN) -- A recent spate of suicides by foreign maids in Lebanon is prompting outrage among human rights groups, who say the government is doing too little to protect migrant domestic workers from severe abuse.
Over the past seven weeks at least 10 women have died, either by hanging themselves or by falling from tall buildings. Six of these cases have been reported in local media as suicides and four more have been described as possible work accidents.
An Ethiopian woman working as a cleaner in Lebanon told CNN by phone that she was sad about the recent suicides, and that she had a friend who killed herself several years ago, when she too was working as a live-in maid.
"If the Madame maybe she is very bad, they feel there is no way, no solution," said the woman who asked not to be identified, referring to abuse by the female employer. "Everyone has a different case," though she added.
This is modern day slavery ... these suicides are just the tip of the iceberg
--Wissam, Ethiopiansuicides.blogspot.com "We are clearly seeing a high rate of suicide. The two leading causes of death for migrants is suicide [and] dying while trying to escape from employers," said Nadim Houry, Senior Researcher for Human Rights Watch (HRW) in Lebanon.
"This pattern [of abuse] is on going," Houry told CNN, citing "bad working conditions, isolation and a feeling of helplessness that comes from lack of recourse," as the sources of desperation that can drive these women to their deaths.
"It is ridiculous ... this is modern day slavery," said Wissam, a Lebanese activist who started a blog after he noticed four Ethiopian women committed suicide within 10 days in October.
"What about the things we don't know? These suicides are just the tip of the iceberg of the mistreatment of these women," he said.
In August 2008 HRW reported that more than one domestic worker was dying each week, either from suicide or failed escapes from abusive employers.
Rampant Abuse
There are more than 200,000 migrant domestic workers in Lebanon -- roughly one per every four families. Overwhelmingly they are women in their 20s and 30s who come alone from the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Nepal and Madagascar, to earn money to support families back home.
According to HRW, more than one third of foreign domestic workers in Lebanon are denied time off and more than 50 percent work at least 10 hours per day.
A 2001 International Labor Organization survey of Sri Lankan domestics in Lebanon found that 88 percent were given no time-off. Among the 70 respondents, nearly 30 percent said they were not given enough food to eat.
Over the past several years there have been increasing reports of exploitation documented in the media, including testimonies from domestic workers about withholding of wages, verbal or physical abuse and restrictions on free movement. Statistics on abuse are difficult to find though, because employees are often afraid to complain, prevented from doing so, or simply don't know how.
"The isolation is key ... Their passports are confiscated and they are often locked in. They are far from home, and not all of them can contact their families -- some can once per month," Houry told CNN.
One Nepalese maid who spoke to HRW from her hospital bed, after jumping from the third floor of her employer's building to escape, said she had seen snow-capped mountains from the window and thought she could walk across to find her village. She did not understand that Lebanon was thousands of miles away from her home in Nepal. "She just had no idea where she landed," Houry said.
Both charity organizations and foreign embassies in Lebanon say they have their hands full dealing with runaways and incidents of abuse.
In August, the Philippines Embassy reported that 117 women who had escaped from maltreatment were sleeping on the embassy floor. The Catholic relief organization CARITAS also estimated that they have an average of 40 runaway domestics sleeping in their shelter at any one time.
Roots of the Problem
The abuse faced by migrant domestic workers is a common problem throughout the Arab Middle East, both because of generally poor labor regulation and also cultural prejudice.
"The responsibility lies primarily with the state. There are no inspectors who can check on working conditions. The laws need to be modified," Houry said.
"The mistreatment of these women and the absence of any government protection is not just in Lebanon -- it's in all the Arab countries," Wissam said.
Neither the Lebanese Labor Ministry, nor General Security, who regulate migrant workers, could be reached for comment on this article.
Because domestic work is performed in the private sphere, it is not considered formal labor and is not covered by Lebanon's labor laws.
In January, the government issued a uniform contract for all maids, which took the critical step of guaranteeing one day off per week and decent working conditions. Rights activists say that the contracts though are not being enforced.
Both Houry and Wissam also pointed to social norms of prejudice that condone abuse. "There is racism against people of poor background and darker skin," Houry said.
This past summer an HRW investigation found that 17 private beaches, out of a nation-wide total of 27, do not allow Asian or African domestic workers to swim, which they argued reflects latent cultural racism in Lebanon.
"There is a mind set among some that says these women have to work for me, and if they don't do it, I have to beat them," Wissam said. "This misconception dehumanizes these women."
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1257
Loc: London, England
Offline
Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
[quote=Technic]
I can go into any Muslim country, and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you will see blind people miraculously healed, and you will see the sick recover, and you will see them that are filled with demonic possesions get delivered, and you will see the burdens of them that Believe on him get relieved. In otherwords, GOD will back up his Word that the testimony of Jesus Christ is true.
You know why it is against the CIVIL law to Preach against Islam in islamic countries???
Because most fear the power of Christ, and when he Begins to reveal himself to them that Believe on his name, that he is ALIVE and holds the key of life, then a lot of the Muslims beliefs will be proven erroneous.
so they keep the people in spiritual, religious and cultural bondage>>
You see mi???
Bless.
What utter foolishness. Are there no Christian churches in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, UAE, Singapore? and others too numerous to mention? Are there any miracles happening there? You people are so Westernised and brainwashed its is unbelievable. PS I have a bridge to sell you.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
