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Jesus and Islam - Do they agree on Jesus' deity? While Jesus is the lynchpin of Christianity, He holds a different place in Islamic circles. Muslims base their faith on the Qur'an, which they believe to contain the revealed word of God, much as Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet along with Moses and Muhammad and that He was born of a virgin mother. The Qur'an relates how the angel Gabriel came to Mary and told her she would have "the gift of a pure son."
"She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: 'That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Qur'an 19:19-21).
Muslims believe Jesus was able to speak while still in the cradle and that he performed many miracles, including giving sight to the blind, curing lepers, and bringing the dead to life. But all these things they believe were done BY God, rather than believing Jesus is God.
Muslims believe in the oneness of God. They do not believe that Jesus was His son, nor do they believe in the Holy Spirit.
And the description in the Quran of Jesus' death directly contradicts Christian claims that He was crucified and raised from the dead.
"And because of their saying, 'We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Qur'an 4:157-158).
Tman, why is The Qur'an is silent on the New Testament accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in which Jesus declares Himself to be the son of God?
Matthew, Mark,Luke,and John are there accounts of Jesus, when you deal with the Holy Quran it is different. And this is where we differ, Virgins dont concieve, and the Jesus that was raised up and was made to appear dead is not the Jesus of 2000 years ago.
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Originally Posted By: Marklon
Matthew, Mark,Luke,and John are there accounts of Jesus, when you deal with the Holy Quran it is different. And this is where we differ, Virgins dont concieve, and the Jesus that was raised up and was made to appear dead is not the Jesus of 2000 years ago.
Matthew, Mark,Luke,and John were with Jesus and they also witnessed his death, burial, they saw the resurrected Jesus and they saw him ascended, so ofcourse they are qualified to give an account. Marklon, the same can be said about the Quran. Isn't the Quran Muhammad's account of what he discribed as a spirit who identified itself as the angel Gabriel told him?
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Originally Posted By: TheDread
Originally Posted By: Noel2000
Originally Posted By: TheDread
Originally Posted By: Noel2000
[quote=Marklon]Matthew, Mark,Luke,and John are there accounts of Jesus,
Wrong...wheel and come again. The only one that had a possibilty of being an eye witness would be John...if he was the apostle.
Eye witness to what Dread?
If Jesus existed only John would have been eye witness to his story (assuming John was the apostle)
Very interesting Dread, you're trying to contradict the Bible? Explain to the viewers how you arrived by that comment, dont't short change them, go into details, put some meat on the bone.
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Mr Slipper , I can tarck you down so don't try to hide from the other topic when you run out of answers. [/quote]
Tman, why is The Qur'an is silent on the New Testament accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in which Jesus declares Himself to be the son of God?
[/quote] I am disappointed that you don't know your Bible better. M,M,L,J were not Apostles and did not witness what you claim. Their account of Jesus (PBUH) was written at the earliest 60 years after Jesus (PBUH) lived.The Bible says the Disciples all ran away at the so called cruici-fiction. Jesus (PBUH) never called himself son of God, ALWAYS "son of man". and they were other sons of God too, so what? A few passages from the Bible that mention sons of God, so Jesus (PBUH) is not unique, and Jesus (PBUH) referred to himself as “son of man” NEVER “sonof God” # Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. # Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. # Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. # Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. # Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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And another thing Mr Slippery, how can you presume to present an Islamic view on Jesus (PBUH) when you don't even know your own Bible (see above)? JESUS AN ISLAMIC VIEW In the name of Allah, the Infinitely Good, the Most Merciful
Did you know that it is obligatory for Muslims to believe in Jesus, or that a record of Jesus’ life and teachings is preserved in the Qur’an and sayings of Muhammad, as well as in little-known traditions handed down by Muslim communities over the centuries? Christians brought up in the West are often surprised to discover Muslims who are familiar with the life and teachings of Jesus through the teachings and scriptures of Islam, while they themselves are unlikely to have learned anything about the Prophet Muhammad at church. This is partly a matter of history: Islam incorporates the Judeo-Christian tradition and embraces Jesus in the same way that Christianity incorporates the Old Testament and embraces Moses (peace be upon them both). All three religions trace their roots to Abraham, and in fact the Qur’an and the Bible share and uphold many beliefs, practices and virtues in common – belief in God, angels and the Day of Judgement, in the virtues of prayer, charity and fasting, and in the importance of truthfulness, patience, and love. Together, Christians and Muslims make up more than half the world’s population, and rather than being ideological opposites as some people imagine, their faiths are in many ways the most alike of the world’s major religions. This common ground is one of the reasons the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) advised the weak and poor among his early followers to seek refuge in Christian Abyssinia (present-day Ethiopia) to escape persecution by the idolatrous Arab tribes, before Islam became established in Arabia. Muslim historians’ account of the event succinctly conveys the heart of the relationship between the two faiths. When the corrupt leaders of Makkah pursued the Muslims into Africa and asked the Negus to return them, the Abyssinian ruler summoned the small community of Muslims, then asked them: “What is this religion which has caused you to become separate from your people, though you have not entered my religion or that of any other folk around us?” Their spokesman Ja’far, Muhammad’s young cousin, replied: “O King, we were a people steeped in ignorance, worshipping idols, eating unslaughtered meat, committing abominations, and the strong would devour the weak. That is how we were until God sent us a Messenger from out of our midst, one whose lineage was known to us, and whose truthfulness, trustworthiness and integrity were renowned. He called us to God – that we should testify to His Oneness, and worship Him and renounce what we and our ancestors had worshipped in the way of stones and idols; and he commanded us to speak truly, to fulfil our promises, to respect the ties of kinship and the rights of our neighbours, and to refrain from crimes and bloodshed. So we worship God alone, setting nothing beside Him, counting as forbidden what He has forbidden and as permissible what He has allowed. For these reasons have our people turned against us, and persecuted us to try to make us forsake our religion and revert from the worship of God to the worship of idols. That is why we have come to your country, having chosen you above all others, We have been happy under your protection, and it is our hope, O king, that here with you we shall not suffer wrong.” His speech was translated by the royal interpreters, after which the Negus asked if they had with them any revelation their prophet had brought them. Ja’far then recited the following verses of the Qur’an, from the chapter entitled ‘Mary’: “And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she withdrew from her people to a place towards the east, and secluded herself from them. We sent to her Our spirit (the angel Gabriel), and he appeared to her in the likeness of a perfect man. She said, “I seek refuge in the Compassionate God from you; (do not come near me) if you fear the Lord.” He replied, “I am none other than a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a pure son.” She said, “How can I have a son when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?” He said, “Even so will it be; your Lord says, “This is an easy thing for Me. And We shall make him a sign for humanity and a mercy from Us. So it has been decreed.”’ (Qur’an 19: 16-21) Ja’far’s recitation and the translation of these verses brought tears to the king’s eyes. He responded, “This has truly come from the same source as that which Jesus brought.” He granted the Muslims his protection. But the tribesmen of Makkah, furious that their plans and alliances had been frustrated, decided to rouse the king’s ire against their monotheist cousins by playing up the differences between Christianity and Islam regarding Jesus. The king assembled them together once again and asked, “What do you say about Jesus, son of Mary?” Ja’far replied, “We say of him what our Prophet has brought us, namely that he is the servant of God and His Messenger, and His Spirit and Word which He cast into Mary, the blessed virgin.” The Negus then lifted his wooden staff and said, ‘“Jesus does not exceed what you have said by the length of this stick.” The bishops present objected to the king’s judgment, but that did not deter him from granting the small Muslim community full protection, declaring, “Not for mountains of gold would I harm a single one of you”. (Adapted from Muhammad: his life based on the earliest sources, by Martin Lings). That was Christianity’s first encounter with Islam, and is how Islam first came to flourish in Africa, under the protection of a benevolent Christian king. It may surprise some to think of any Christians accepting a description of Jesus that fell short of ‘only-begotten Son of God’ and ‘Saviour’, but the Negus would have known of the theological arguments that had raged between various sects in the Eastern birthplace of Christianity for centuries after Christ. Christians had been divided roughly into two ‘camps’ from the beginning, which can perhaps best be described as people who followed the religion of Jesus, versus those who followed a religion about Jesus. The first is exemplified by his disciples, who lived as Jews, believed in One God, and followed the Law of Moses – which Jesus had come ‘not to destroy, but to fulfil’ (Matthew 5:17). They had no concept of Jesus originating a new religion: they worshipped in the Temple, and focused their efforts on spreading the good news to fellow Jews that their Messiah had come. This group further developed and became known as Arians, after Arius, a North African bishop who emphasized Jesus’ human nature. The second ‘camp’ was led by Paul, a charismatic speaker who had never met Jesus and had persecuted many Christians before his sudden conversion. Under his leadership, Pauline Christians directed their conversion efforts towards non-Jews and developed a theology foreign to the Old Testament, including belief in a Trinity (which had been prevalent among Romans, Egyptians and other pagans), an emphasis on Jesus as the ‘son’ of God, associated concepts of original sin and atonement, and the central dogma of Jesus’ (supposed) crucifixion and resurrection. Disagreements between these and other sects had grown so great by the 4th century that the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to convene the Council of Nicea (Iznik, Turkey) in 325, to settle the matter of true belief ‘once and for all’. During this event (in which Constantine’s own trinitarian leanings were made known), the bishops of the Christian world gathered together for the first time to debate doctrine, and a draft creed espousing belief in a Trinity of ‘Father, Son and Holy Ghost’ received the most votes. Dissenting bishops were suddenly declared heretics; their writings were banned, and the gospels supporting them burned. That marked the birth of the Roman Catholic Church, state religion of the Roman empire. Tens of gospels and other writings that individual churches had been free to use, some which presented an alternative view of Jesus, were destroyed; only four were included in the New Testament collection, along with a heavy dose of Paul’s writings. Despite this totalitarian approach to achieving ‘religious unity’, a small number of dissenting Christian sects survived, together with alternative gospels that were carefully hidden and only came to light in the 20th century. Europe’s Germanic tribes were converted directly to Arian Christianity rather than Roman Catholicism; a tradition of dissent among them later helped fuel the Protestant Reformation and the establishment of the Unitarian Church. Viewed in historical context, the main theological differences between Muslims and Christians are largely the same differences that have been a major source of disagreement between Christians themselves from the beginning. These concern the nature and role of Jesus, his relationship with God, and how best to venerate and follow his example. In contrast to the often contradictory passages of the New Testament, the Qur’an teaches monotheism, pure and simple: faith in One God, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, a Supreme Being without partners, associates or family members. There is no concept of an intermediary in Islam, whether priest or saviour, who must intercede between a human being and his Creator. Whatever individual Christians may understand by the term ‘son’ or ‘father’ – whether in their minds the terms symbolize no more than a caring, loving relationship, or whether they regard belief in the Trinity as the key to avoiding eternal damnation – Islam considers that the Christian view in which Jesus is ‘idolized’ while God is ‘humanized’, obscures Jesus’ invaluable role as master teacher and role model, while vastly underestimating God’s transcendent majesty. It is impossible, indeed inconceivable to Muslims that the Almighty Creator of the Universe could appear in any human form, whole or in ‘part’, constrained by time and space. As the prophet Solomon is reported as saying after completing the Temple of Jerusalem, “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain You. How much less this temple I have built!” (The Bible, I Kings 8:27) While the Qur’an, like the Bible, confirms that Jesus had no human father, it does not accept that this makes Jesus the son of God any more than it does Adam himself, who was created without either father or mother. Rather, when God decides something, “He need only say to it “Be!” and it is” (Qur’an 3:47). It is interesting to note that the term Jesus most often used of himself in the New Testament gospels is ‘son of man’ (in Hebrew, literally the ‘son of Adam’); a term that for Muslims emphasizes his human nature. The phrase ‘son of man’ also appears in the Old Testament, where it underscores man’s insignificance before God as well as the undeserved honour God has shown him: “How then can a man be righteous before God?…If even the stars are not pure in His eyes, how much less man, who is but a maggot — a son of man, who is only a worm!” (Job 25:4-6) “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, What is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him? You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings, and crowned him with glory and honour.” (Psalms 8:3-5) Many Arians, Unitarians and other like-minded Christians have argued against the existence of a Trinity, basing their reasoning on passages of the Bible itself. The lack of any mention of the word or concept in the Old Testament is one of the most important, as God surely would have found it important enough to mention to Moses and the many other prophets of old. Yet the cornerstone of the Jewish faith has always been, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.” (Deut. 6:4), and, “You shall have no other gods besides Me.” (Deut. 5:7) Jesus never taught his followers to worship him, and no record exists of him preaching about a Trinity. “By myself I can do nothing.” (John 5:30), “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28), and many similar statements of his support pure monotheism, although other passages in the New Testament contradict it. Many Christians came to the conclusion that the Biblical texts must have been corrupted, as indeed the Qur’an asserts. The reader is referred to the writings of John Biddle, father of Unitarianism, as well as others such as John Milton, Sir Isaac Newton, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin for examples of this kind of reasoning. The Qur’an speaks of ‘the Gospel’ (Injil) as a Scripture revealed to Jesus by God, from which he preached, like the Torah of Moses. It is clear from early Christian history as well as modern Biblical studies that this original Scripture has been lost forever, and the fragments that remain in the form of various gospels have been corrupted so that they do not inspire confidence. The Qur’an, which was revealed partly in order to clarify points that had been misunderstood by previous religious groups, paints a brief but clear portrait of Jesus as Messenger of God. Responding to the views of an early Christian sect known as ‘Adoptionists’, who believed that God had ‘adopted’ Jesus, the Qur’an says: “It does not befit (the majesty of) the Compassionate God that He should adopt a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but shall come to the Compassionate One as a servant.” (Qur’an 19:92-93) The Qur’an further cautions: “O People of the Scripture, do not exaggerate or go to extremes in your religion, or say anything about God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than an (honoured) Messenger of God, and His word that He imparted to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers and do not say, ‘Three (in One)’.Cease, for your own good! For your Lord is One God; Glory be to Him – (He is far) above having a son! All that is in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. And God is Sufficient as Guardian (of the affairs of the universe). The Messiah would never scorn to be a servant of God, nor would the angels who are near (to Him)…” (Qur’an 4:171-2) The Angel Gabriel announced to the Virgin Mary the miraculous nature of the child she was to bear by saying: “O Mary, God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, held in high honour in this world and the Next, and one of those brought near (to Him). …He will speak to people in his cradle and in the prime of manhood, and he is one of the righteous…(God) will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel, And (will appoint him as) a Messenger to the children of Israel (saying), ‘I come to you with a miracle from your Lord (as proof of my message). I will make the likeness of a bird for you out of clay; (then) I will breathe into it and, by God’s permission, it shall become a (living) bird. And by God’s permission I will give sight to those born blind, and heal the leper, and raise the dead to life. And I will inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Surely that is a sign for you, if you are believers.…And (I come to you) confirming (what has been sent down before me in) the Torah, and in order to make some of the things which were forbidden (in the past) lawful for you. I came to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.…God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Qur’an 3:45-51) Some of these miracles are unfamiliar to modern readers of the Bible, but the accounts do appear in the ‘Infancy Gospels’, which enjoyed wide circulation in Eastern churches for centuries. Another point of contention surrounding the life of Jesus has been that of the crucifixion: whereas Christians have regarded it as an essential point of faith, Jews took it as proof that Jesus was not the promised Messiah, since God would not have allowed His chosen one to suffer such humiliation at the hands of his enemies. The Islamic position is that the crucifixion of Jesus never happened, although it appeared to. We may note that the descriptions given in the New Testament gospels of the crucifixion cannot be considered accurate eyewitness accounts since, in their words, “all the disciples fled” when Jesus was arrested. The work of modern Biblical scholars lends support to the Islamic position. They have established that the earliest (original) gospels make no mention of either crucifixion or resurrection, but focus instead on Jesus’ teachings and miracles. What did happen to Jesus if he was not crucified? The Qur’an says: “(The Jews who rejected Jesus earned God’s displeasure) because of their denying the truth and slandering Mary with a terrible accusation; and because of their (boasting) claim, ‘We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, God’s Messenger!’ They neither killed him nor crucified him, though it was made to appear that way to them. Those who disagree about this (matter) are full of doubts; they have no knowledge about it except to follow guesswork and speculation, but they certainly did not kill him. Rather, God raised him up to Himself; and God is ever Mighty, Wise. There is not one of the People of the Scripture who will not believe in him (as he should be believed in) before his death (e.g. after his Second Coming), and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness against them.” (Qur’an 4:156-9) The most prevalent interpretation of these verses among Muslim scholars is that someone else (such as the traitor Judas Iscariot) was crucified instead, while Jesus was raised to heaven, as God often saves those beloved to Him. The Prophet Muhammad taught that Jesus will return to earth one day to rule in peace and justice, although Islamic prophecies on the subject differ from Christian ones. The Islamic view of Jesus is a logical and reasonable one, which is consistent with earlier Biblical teachings, and people today can relate to: he was a virtuous and wise teacher; an ascetic who taught by personal example and spoke without fear against corruption in high places; prophet and Messiah of the Jewish people, who healed and brought the dead to life by God’s permission; an honoured Messenger of God. Rather than being sent to found a new religion, he came to ‘breathe life’ into and revitalise the interpretation of Mosaic law. Muslims believe that this vision of Jesus as respected prophet and Messenger of God, rather than being in any way degrading, simply and accurately represents the truth about a great man who was widely misunderstood.
Stories related by Muslims about Jesus are plentiful, and highlight his role as teacher of wisdom. It is quite likely that some of these originate from lost or non-canonical gospels that were studied or memorised by Christians who later converted to Islam, for they resemble sayings contained in the ‘Wisdom Gospels’. A few examples are: Jesus said, “Do not hang jewels around the necks of swine. Wisdom is finer than gems, and those who do not value it are worse than swine.” Jesus said, “A plant can only grow in yielding earth, not on hard rock. In the same way, wisdom flourishes only in a humble heart, not one which is proud and unyielding.” The disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to win God’s love. He said, “Make the world your enemy, and God will make you His friend.” (The above and many other sayings are related by the classical Muslim scholar Al-Ghazali in his Revival of the Religious Sciences. For translations of and information on other gospels, see The Complete Gospels, edited by R.J. Miller.) The Prophet Muhammad spoke with much affection and respect of Jesus, and taught Muslims to do the same. Relating some of Jesus’ teachings, he said: “Jesus, son of Mary, used to say, “Do not speak much without mentioning God, for your hearts will become hardened. A hard heart is far from God, if you only knew.”…“Do not look at the wrong actions of others as though you were lords; look at your own wrong actions as if you were slaves. Some people are afflicted by sins while others are protected from (committing) them. Be merciful to those who are afflicted, and praise God for His protection.” And Muhammad emphasised the true and common message of Christianity and Islam, saying: “Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all people to Jesus, son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.”…“If anyone testifies that no one has the right to be worshipped except God alone, Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that Jesus is His servant and Messenger, and His word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him; and that Paradise is true and Hell is true — God will admit him to Paradise with his (good) deeds, even if those deeds were few.” Many Arab Christians converted to Islam during and soon after Muhammad’s lifetime because they recognised the simple truth of his message, and were convinced that New Testament passages foretelling the appearance of a ‘Comforter’ and other Biblical prophecies referred to him. Those who seek a truly historical prophet, whose life and teachings have been lovingly and meticulously preserved in remarkable detail, may wish to learn more about Muhammad – another great leader who continues to be widely misunderstood, especially in the West. We conclude with the words of the Qur’an: “Say, ‘O People of the Scripture, (let us) come to an agreement together: that we will worship none but God, and that we will not associate any (other god) with Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides God.’ And if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that we are (the ones who have surrendered to Him, as) Muslims.” (Qur’an 3:64) “…You will find that the (people) nearest to the (Muslim) believers in love and affection are those who say, ‘We are Christians’. That is because there are priests and monks among them (completely devoted to serving God), and because they are not proud. When they listen to what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflow with tears because they recognise the truth. They say, ‘O Lord, we believe, so register us among the witnesses! Why should we not believe in God and the truth that has come to us, and (why should we not) hope that our Lord will admit us (to Paradise) with the righteous?” (Qur’an 5:82-84)
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Well said Tman, another point to make Jesus never taught Christianity or Judaism, he taught peace and submission to the will of God, no where in any of the scriptures does he say he was a Christian or a Jew, he was in fact a Muslim,
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Muslim; in the original meaning of the word which is "submission". Jesus (PBUH) fully submitted his will to the Will of God. To be a Muslim you have to let go of the ego, and the bigging up of yourself (who the cap fit...), and submit fully to the One God.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Muslim; in the original meaning of the word which is "submission". Jesus (PBUH) fully submitted his will to the Will of God. To be a Muslim you have to let go of the ego, and the bigging up of yourself (who the cap fit...), and submit fully to the One God.
You're right for once Tman. The word of God says: Jesus called the people to him. His followers were also there. Then Jesus said, "If any person wants to follow me, he must say 'No' to the things he wants. That person must accept the cross (suffering) that is given to him, and he must follow me. For Jesus' true followers, the Cross is not a piece of jewelry or even a symbol; it is a lifestyle. It is the willingness to follow Jesus in every way -- including the way of the Cross. For us to do that, we must surrender our selfishness and lay down our lives for the needs of others. We must have unflinching loyalty to God no matter the cost. More than just a burden to bear, "our cross to bear" is a total "buy-in" to the life, character, and way of Jesus. O Father, form me more perfectly into the nature, character, and lifestyle of Jesus. In his name I pray. Amen.
Muslims believe in the oneness of God. They do not believe that Jesus was His son, nor do they believe in the Holy Spirit.
And the description in the Quran of Jesus' death directly contradicts Christian claims that He was crucified and raised from the dead.
"And because of their saying, 'We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Qur'an 4:157-158).
Tman, why is The Qur'an is silent on the New Testament accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in which Jesus declares Himself to be the son of God?
I have studied both belief system, and
The Main difference between Islam and Christianity, is that the Islamic Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is dead and buried, while Jesus Christ is alive and well!!! "for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we MUST be saved"
You see, Jesus claimed that his IS the Messiah, and he did everything he did (and still does everything) to prove to all of humanity that he IS the Messiah that Moses prophesied. He promised that the proof that would be provided to the world to verify is claim is that he would be killed, but would raise from the Dead three days later.
Anyone who wants to know if Jesus The Christ existed should take him at HIS Word, and call upon his name: the proof is in the pudding. As it is written that WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED!!!!
The LORD is WHO HE SAYS HE IS: HE HAS the POWER to SAVE ANYONE WHO WILL DARE TO BELIEVE HIM!!
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is dead, and so he cannot do this.
Bless
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (11/25/0902:16 PM) Edit Reason: Added Blessing
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"You're right for once Tman." Thanks Noel, very generous of you. Bolivar, go back and study again. Muhammad (PBUH) did not come to save the world, but only to give the message that was revealed to him by the Angel Gabriel, which in summary is "There is one God and only Him must you worship." Many times in his life he was in despair because the people would not turn away form their wicked ways and God would say to him "You are not here to save them, but only to spread the word". Go and read some more, especially the Qur'an. Search this and other threads for the meaning of the word "messiah" or even the dictionary. "The truth is not what they teach us"– Bob. From Friday evening to Sunday morning is not three days, no matter how you calculate it, so please explain. Jesus (PBUH) stated time and again that he only came to the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles. Jesus (PBUH) never said IN HIS OWN WORDS: I am God, worship me".
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Jesus (PBUH) never said IN HIS OWN WORDS: I am God, worship me". [/quote]
Tman, you still peddling this cheap debate trick? That wasn't the reason why Jesus came to dwell amongst sinfull men. Jesus was sent to confirm everything that had been written about God, as well as what the prophets had said. And not only would He confirm those things, He would fulfill all the rest of the messianic prophecies that people were wondering about (Matthew 5:17-18). Jesus said he is God in many ways, but you have eyes and you cannot see, ears, but, no hearing, not until you come to the cross of Jesus Christ Tman and get washed by the Blood of Jesus, you will continue to walk in darkness. From the time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and SUFFER MANY THINGS, from the elders and chief priests and scribes, AND BE KILLED AND ON THE THIRD DAY BE RAISED. Matt. 16:21
As they were gathering in Galilee, JESUS SAID TO THEM, 'The Son of Man is to be delivered unto the hands of men, AND THEY WILL KILL HIM, and He will be raised on the third day.' And they were greatly distressed, Matt. 17:22
When Jesus had finished all these sayings, He said to His disciples, 'You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and THE SON OF MAN WILL BE DELIVERED UP TO BE CRUCIFIED. Matt. 26:1-2
HE BEGAN TO TEACH THEM that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, AND BE KILLED, and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31. For He was TEACHING HIS DISCIPLES and saying to them, 'The Son of Man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will KILL HIM, and when HE IS KILLED, after three days He will rise.” Mark 9:31. And they were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them, and they were amazed and those who followed were afraid. And taking the twelve again He began to tell them what was to happen to Him, saying, 'Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles, and they will mock Him and spit upon Him and scourge Him AND KILL HIM; and after three days He will rise.' Mark 10:32-34
The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes and be KILLED and on the third day be raised." Luke 9:22
In all of the above passages Jesus explicitly stated that “he would die and be crucified and be raised on the third day”. However neither Muslims nor the Quran believe this very clear statement. If Muslims don’t believe what Jesus says regarding his crucifixion and subsequent resurrection then what makes them think that they can lie to us and perpetrate the idea that they would believe that Jesus claimed to be God if he explicitly said “I AM GOD”? They won’t.
Islam is Mathematics and Mathematics is Islam and it can be proven in no limited amount of time, genious of so called scholars where in your bible does it say that Jesus (Isa) was a Christian or a Jew. Christianity has its origin in Antioch in Europe. Jesus said he dred the cross but constantin the Roman Emperor said he dreamed of the cross, and the white man went around the world with a cross and in the name of our precious Jesus and slaughtered the Aboriginal people, Constantin said in this sighn shal we conquouer. Christianity is the Religion of the slave master and his children, its a white mans made up Religion and not the teachings of Jesus.
Here the slave master did not let us read, it was forbiden, so for over three hundred years we did not know what Moses said, what Jesus said. Then all of a sudden they decided to give us religion not the teachings of Jesus , but to make us better tools of servant for them. They came in the slave ship named Jesus, SS Jesus of lubec,and the first slaves landed in James town Virginia in 1555, not 1619 as told the year or so before the pilgrims. So there is a 64 year period of hidden history that they dont talk about of unspeakable brutality against our forefathers, where we went trouhg a complete transforamtion. So in the church today they sing steal away Jesus, but little did they know that our people as slaves would go down to the sea shore in Virginia and cry and sing steal away Jesus because they wanted to get back on the ship Jesus to go home.
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Originally Posted By: Marklon
Here the slave master did not let us read, it was forbiden, so for over three hundred years we did not know what Moses said, what Jesus said. Then all of a sudden they decided to give us religion not the teachings of Jesus , but to make us better tools of servant for them. They came in the slave ship named Jesus, SS Jesus of lubec,and the first slaves landed in James town Virginia in 1555, not 1619 as told the year or so before the pilgrims. So there is a 64 year period of hidden history that they dont talk about of unspeakable brutality against our forefathers, where we went trouhg a complete transforamtion. So in the church today they sing steal away Jesus, but little did they know that our people as slaves would go down to the sea shore in Virginia and cry and sing steal away Jesus because they wanted to get back on the ship Jesus to go home.
You're not making one ounce of yes, trying to conradict the Quran that spoke highly of his Majesty Jesus Christ, and you coming here with your extreme fundamentalist belief that Jesus was just the name of a slave ship. -------------------------------------------------------- emancipate yourself from mental slavery none but ourselves can free our mind.
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
If Muslims don’t believe what Jesus says regarding his crucifixion and subsequent resurrection then what makes them think that they can lie to us and perpetrate the idea that they would believe that Jesus claimed to be God if he explicitly said “I AM GOD”? They won’t.
Still peddling that lame old answer? Jesus (PBUH) never said it so we dont have to prove anything to you. Basic maths: Friday to Sunday is not three days. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is one day. Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown is two days. They did not use the Western calendar at the time of Jesus (PBUH), and they count the days beginning at sundown not midnight. The sign of Jonah was that he WAS ALIVE and not dead, and not that he was in the whale for three days. The Qur'an teaches it only APPEARED he was killed, but God would not suffer his prophet to such a death and he was raised up ALIVE
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Originally Posted By: Tman
PS: thanks for the quotes from Jesus (PBUH) himself "Son of man" not son of God.
Exactly,
Jesus said he did not come to seek is own glory, so you and your fool fool question that you keep repeating: "when did Jesus say I am God worship me" Jesus, although fully God and fully man, he didn't come to be worshipped as God or big up himself like you Tman, he came as a humble servant, so why would he want to make such a declaration that you muslims keep peddling? that would have defeated the whole purpose of is coming. The most amazing thing about Jesus is the example he set as a humble servant God. On the night before he died, Jesus met with his disciples to share the Passover meal. He took a towel and basin of water and washed the dust from the streets off of their feet. This was normally the task of the lowest servant in the house. Peter was offended that Jesus would stoop so low. When he finished, Jesus explained, "You call me `Teacher' and `Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them." (John 13:13-17 NIV) Jesus set the example of humbling ourselves to serve others, but washing feet was nothing compared to the example he set the following day. Jesus suffered the pain and humiliation of death on a cross. He sacrificed his life to pay the penalty for our sins, so we could be reconciled to God -------------------------------------------------------------- Fool say in their heart Rasta your God is dead But I and I know,Jah Jah Dread it shall be Dreader Dread Jah Live children yeah Jah Jah Live children yeah Jah Live children yeah jah Jah Live children yeah.
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Trinity, Atonement & Blood Sacrifice XXVIII : "The Islamic Perspective"
Introduction
In this segment, Dr. Badawi attempts to explain the Islamic concept of salvation. According to Dr. Badawi, there is no need for a blood sacrifice, being good and performing good deeds will cause God to forgive us. However, when we look a little closer, we find that the Qur'an actually preaches a form of pre-destination which is based entirely on the whims of God.
Host: Could you discuss the Islamic doctrines of sin and atonement. If Muslims do not accept the Pauline doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice, does that mean that they take sin less seriously? Jamal Badawi: The existence of sin is a matter that Muslims take seriously. The Qur'an says that one of God's attributes is the Holy One. We must try our best to purify ourselves and seek God's help. Sura 53:32 :
Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil. Issue 1: God is perfectly Holy and pure. How can we cleanse ourselves to the point where we can honestly say that we deserve to be in His presence? Whether we commit a "great sin" or a "small sin", a sin is a sin! We are not fit to stand before a perfectly Holy God.
Issue 2: As we have discussed in earlier segments, God set up the model of redemption through blood sacrifice in the Old Testament which used atonement means to remove sin. In the Old Testament, the blood sacrifice of various animals offered by the high priests, were for the temporary atonement of the Nation of Israel. Only the people in that place and time received the atonement from the blood sacrifice. These sacrifices foreshadowed the real and final atonement made by Jesus. The idea of atonement and blood sacrifice is found throughout the Old and New Testaments and the people who lived during the ministry of Jesus were well aware of this concept. It is interesting that the Qur'an is so quiet concerning a theme which an eternal and unchanging God has stressed for thousands of years.
While we are responsible to try to purify ourselves, it comes only from God Sura 4:49: Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing. It must be emphasized that when God says that He will purify who He pleases, that this is not an arbitrary decision because God is merciful, just and loving. The will of God to purify cannot be separated from His justice.
Unfortunately Dr. Badawi, it is an arbitrary decision according to the Qur'an. Sura 14:4 tells us:
Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. So, God, according to the Qur'an will save, or damn, whomever he pleases and that person in question can do nothing about it. To make matters even worse, God, according to the Qur'an, closes the hearts and minds of those that He who He wishes to damn. Sura 6:125 tells us:
Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; Those whom He wills to leave straying, - he makes their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe. The most serious question is, if we believe this, is how do we know if God is guiding us or leading us down the path to eternal damnation? The Qur'an gives us absolutely no assurance of God's truth or assurance of salvation.
Host: How can salvation be obtained is there a term for being saved? Jamal Badawi: There are some terms in Arabic that are similar to Christianity. Nagaah appears in the Qur'an in Sura 59:
Sura 19:72:
But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees. There are other uses in Sura 40:41, 61:10. There are other terms, in more than 65 places.
If God, according to the Qur'an is so perfectly forgiving and does not demand atonement, then why does the Qur'an say that all Muslims will spend some time in Hell? Sura 19:71-72 :
There will be no one of you who will not enter it (Hell). This was an inevitable decree of your Lord. Afterwards he may save some of the pious, God-fearing Muslims out of the burning fire. Is this any assurance of salvation? God may, or perhaps may not, save you after you have been thrown into Hell?
Host: Does this mean that Muslims believe that salvation can be achieved by good deeds? Jamal Badawi: Christians believe that the difference in Islam is that they believe in salvation by deeds. This is erroneous. The Qur'an says that only through the grace of God can someone be saved. Sura 24:21:
O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things). Muhammad said in the Hadith Sahih Muslim that none of his followers would enter Paradise by their good deeds.
Dr. Badawi makes a point, Muslims believe more in predestination than in good works. Sura 7:179 tells us that God actually created people to burn in Hell:
Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). If we are pre-destined to burn in Hell, no amount of good deeds can save us. Bukhari tells us
(Narrated 'Imran) : I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?' The Prophet said, "Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him to his destined place for which he has been created.' Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 641
There are two conditions according to the Qur'an to receive grace: 1. Correct belief in God, staying away from shirk Sura 4:48:
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. in Sura 4:116
Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). An interesting point, an contradiction, here is that Allah did forgive shirk in the case of Abraham. Sura 4:153 tells us
... Yet they [the Israelites] worshipped the calf even after Clear Signs had come to them; even so We forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority. Sura 5:75 quotes Jesus: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! This is what Muhammad believed and certainly not what Christ said!
2. Try sincerely to translate belief into action and good deeds. When we fall short or ere, the means to correct this is sincere repentance without any need for absolution. But wait, a moment ago we decided that Islam was not a religion of works. How will our works save us if God, according to the Qur'an, has created us to burn in Hell? This contradicts the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith which we mentioned earlier.
Host: Can you give some examples from the Qur'an and Hadith? Jamal Badawi: Sura 53:32:
Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil. Sura 4:110
If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Sura 39:53
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Sura 3:135
And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah?- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. Hadith Kudsi Muhammad said that Allah said that all child of Adam will be forgiven if they call on God.
Another Hadith tells us:
Narrated by Ali: "We were accompanying a funeral procession in Baqi-I-Gharqad. The Prophet came to us and sat and we sat around him. He had a small stick in his hand then he bent his head and started scraping the ground with it. He then said, "There is none among you, and not a created soul, but has place either in Paradise or in Hell assigned for him and it is also determined for him whether he will be among the blessed or wretched." A man said, "O Allah's Apostle! Should we not depend on what has been written for us and leave the deeds as whoever amongst us is blessed will do the deeds of a blessed person and whoever amongst us will be wretched, will do the deeds of a wretched person?" The Prophet said, "The good deeds are made easy for the blessed, and bad deeds are made easy for the wretched." Then he recited the Verses:-- "As for him who gives (in charity) and is Allah-fearing And believes in the Best reward from Allah." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 444
What is the use of asking for forgiveness and performing good deeds if we are already "assigned" to Hell?
Host: Some Christians say that they do not disagree with God's qualities but since God is just, how do we pay for our sins? Jamal Badawi: According to the Unitarians, shedding innocent blood does not achieve this, God could forgive without it. We also pay for our sins in this life. The spiritual part or forgiveness can be achieved through repentance. There are three conditions for repentance:
1. Stop the evil
2. Regret it
3. Try not to do it again
4. If the sin hurt another rights, he should seek forgiveness
God knows that He created us imperfect so He has to forgive us if we are sorry. If we say that blood sacrifice is necessary, then it is not just because God made us imperfect. It would be like a Professor telling a student that he must 100% on everything just to pass, it is not fair or just. In Islam we say that if you do even one good deed, he can get at least a ten fold reward. Muhammad said that my mercy prevails over my wrath.
First of all, can we truly stop sinning? Can we eliminate our sinful nature as humans? Second, the Professor analogy is not very good since none of my Professors are perfect as God is perfect. Only a perfect God can demand perfection since He alone is perfect in every way.
Host: Does this mean that Muslims are assured of salvation? Jamal Badawi: In one sense yes. There are two necessities: the believer must be humble and does not say that he earned salvation but by the will of God and His grace. The person must be assured of the mercy of God and his justice that he is saved by correct belief and right deeds. There is no undue uncertainty except in the healthy degree that he is steadfast to his death. There are assurances in the Qur'an that they will be in paradise.
No dear brothers and sisters, you have no assurance! Remember Sura 19:71-72 :
There will be no one of you who will not enter it (Hell). This was an inevitable decree of your Lord. Afterwards he may save some of the pious, God-fearing Muslims out of the burning fire. Muhammad said in the Hadith:
"By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me." Vol. 5:266 Is this any assurance of salvation? God may, or perhaps may not, save you after you have been thrown into Hell? How do you know? Can you be absolutely sure that you have done a sufficient number of good deeds in your life? Do you believe that your deeds, or my deeds, can please an all perfect God? No one knows when our last day on this planet will end. If that day happens to be today, are you ready to answer to God? As a Christian, I know that I am a sinner, I do not deserve anything from God. However, God sent His Son into this world to pay the terrible price for my sins and for your sins - all that we need to do is to accept Him.
Host: Can you give us some examples? Jamal Badawi:The Muslim has trust that God is just. In Sura 18:49:
And the Book (of Deeds) will be placed (before you); and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is (recorded) therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" They will find all that they did, placed before them: And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice. The Qur'an says that God has no interest in punishing us. Sura 4:147
What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe? Nay, it is Allah that recogniseth (all good), and knoweth all things. Muhammad came for mercy Sura 11:2
(It teacheth) that ye should worship none but Allah. (Say): "Verily I am (sent) unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad tidings: Sura 2:112:
Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Can we honestly believe in these promise from a God who, according to other verses, actually creates people to burn in Hell?
Some Christians say that salvation is more than forgiveness, but the changing of attitudes and the Qur'an says that strengthening our relationship to God Sura 64:11: No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah: and if any one believes in Allah, (Allah) guides his heart (aright): for Allah knows all things. Sura 47:17:
But to those who receive Guidance, He increases the (light of) Guidance, and bestows on them their Piety and Restraint (from evil). Once again, the damnation of any person is a calamity, which happens on the "leave of Allah". Please remember the words of God:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.John 3:16
Mr. slipery read what i wrote, i was not denying Jesus, just pointing out the fact that the wicked have used his name to shield their dirty practise, read up on the history of John Hawkins and the slave ship Jesus.Look up the word fundamental, before you start making a fool of yourself
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Originally Posted By: Marklon
Mr. slipery read what i wrote, i was not denying Jesus, just pointing out the fact that the wicked have used his name to shield their dirty practise, read up on the history of John Hawkins and the slave ship Jesus.Look up the word fundamental, before you start making a fool of yourself
Marklon, I am so sorry that you don't know what fundamentalist means, let me give you the defintition. A fundamentalist is a person of any religion who espouses conservative theological, political, and social views. But the more you post Marklon the more you sound like an Islamic Fundamentalists. A Islamic Fundamentalists are Muslims who believe that The Qur'an should be used as a guide to take over the world in the name of Islam. Islamic Fundamentalists or Islamism is when all the world is run off: 1. Islamic political systems 2. Islamic legal systems 3. Islamic economic systems 3. Islamic social values systems This is all based around The Qur'an or Sharia Law. Despite the The Quran being plagiarised off The Bible, it is truly a disgusting system that in today's society has many women raped and killed. Islamic Fundamentalists are Muslims who want one thing. World Power. World Dominance and everything that comes with it. Basically an Islamic Fundamentalist is a Muslim that has lived in the stone-age all their life and is now suffering for it, but now wants to control the world even though they barely know how to control a sheep herd. Islamic Fundamentalists want to bring the world back into a stone-age way where instead of governments running the world, the Islamic Faith will run the world in every aspect of the way. But Jesus can Deliver you Marklon, trust the Bible, it's the word of Almighty God, it's infallable. Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
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Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
Tman - Of those 1.4 Billion peaceful law-abiding Muslims, how many of them are free to question their traditional beliefs without fear of castigation and death??? I would estimate that over 90% of Muslims are living in a fearful and closed society that binds them to the muslim belief by tradition rather than enlightenment. Most of them just recite a verse comitted to memory, and are totally void of understanding of a chance to call on the name of the LIVING ALMIGHTY GOD, SO HIS POWER can be divinely revealed to them.
It is for this reason why they hold the people in bondage, and the same reason why they forbid the GOSPEL of CHRIST to be preached itheir country (if they were peaceful, they would not force people to adhere to islam with the threat of death if they don't.In fact Most true Muslims who MEET the LIVING JESUS CHRIST in person will begin to understand that HE is NOT DEAD, but HE IS ALIVE and WELL!, and HIS word is true today as it was when he first fulfilled it 2000 years ago...
You also claim Jesus came only to the Jews: Well, this is not true, because he came initially to His family of people first, and after they (as a nation) refused to believe him (as a nation), he accepted whoever would believe him, no matter their nationality...He came unto his own and his own believed him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on his name.(John 1:11-12)
Again, I being a practical man, see that your claims that Jesus never said "I am God" is not true: Jesus the Christ did not reveal himself to most people in his time that He IS God, but the Jews who did not believe Him asked him the Question outrigh. His answer is below:
Here is the scripture that documents him saying exactly this:
John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
You should read the whole passage, and it would conflict with Everything you believe as a Muslim. I suppose you would have also stoned The Lord as the other Jews did.
Bless.
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (11/30/0901:58 PM) Edit Reason: spelling
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As I read this debate knowing what I know about Christianity and what I know about Islam. I dare not put it in words because the backlash would be too fierce so I sit back and watch this clip and I must say that at minute 7:00 to 7:30 I feel exactly what this guy must be going through as I face it daily.
but I must and I mean must carry on to save my people from the yoke and bondage of religion and bring them back to what they have always been and that is spiritual
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
Tman, the only problem that I have with you is that you lack understanding in what you read. I was not saying that all Muslims are Islamic Fundamentalist, I was telling Marklon that he sounds like a Islamic Fundamentalist, I didn't say all Muslims are. I play Cricket every once per week with some wonderful Muslims from Pakistan, they are peaceful law-abiding citizens and they are my friends, and there is no way I would brand those guys as Islamic Fundamentalist, just like I wouldn't brand you that way, but, Marklon yes. ------------------------------------------------------------- Philippians 2:9-11 (King James Version)
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: there are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, and growing more numerous, every day who are peaceful law-abiding citizens. The so-call Islamic fundamentalist are a tiny minority who you and the Western world would like to project as the true face of Islam. Its like saying Timothy McVey represented the Christian faith. Thanks for posting the above, it helps a lot to explain why we don't need a blood sacrifice in Jesus (PBUH). Keep posting more of the same and maybe by reading it you will come to understand the true mission of Jesus (PBUH) which was unto the children of Israel only.
Tman - Of those 1.4 Billion peaceful law-abiding Muslims, how many of them are free to question their traditional beliefs without fear of castigation and death??? I would estimate that over 90% of Muslims are living in a fearful and closed society that binds them to the muslim belief by tradition rather than enlightenment. Most of them just recite a verse comitted to memory, and are totally void of understanding of a chance to call on the name of the LIVING ALMIGHTY GOD, SO HIS POWER can be divinely revealed to them.
It is for this reason why they hold the people in bondage, and the same reason why they forbid the GOSPEL of CHRIST to be preached itheir country (if they were peaceful, they would not force people to adhere to islam with the threat of death if they don't.In fact Most true Muslims who MEET the LIVING JESUS CHRIST in person will begin to understand that HE is NOT DEAD, but HE IS ALIVE and WELL!, and HIS word is true today as it was when he first fulfilled it 2000 years ago...
You also claim Jesus came only to the Jews: Well, this is not true, because he came initially to His family of people first, and after they (as a nation) refused to believe him (as a nation), he accepted whoever would believe him, no matter their nationality...He came unto his own and his own believed him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on his name.(John 1:11-12)
Again, I being a practical man, see that your claims that Jesus never said "I am God" is not true: Jesus the Christ did not reveal himself to most people in his time that He IS God, but the Jews who did not believe Him asked him the Question outrigh. His answer is below:
Here is the scripture that documents him saying exactly this:
John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
You should read the whole passage, and it would conflict with Everything you believe as a Muslim. I suppose you would have also stoned The Lord as the other Jews did.
Bless.
Bolivar, I think you are mixing up culture with the religion. What you describe is more cultural than religious.
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Bolivar: Have you ever lived in a Muslim country like I did? I did not see any one holding a gun over the heads of millions of people who went to the mosques on Fridays.I don't see anyone holding a gun at the millions of westerners who are turning to Islam every day to make it the world's fastest growing religion. Don't come with Western propogada when you post on this site. Think for yourself. "Emancipate yourself..." Bob.
Answer to "I am" Jesus said "I am" so he must be God
Once again, the claim in John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus (pbuh) was present before Abraham (pbuh) is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon (pbuh) (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham (pbuh), but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
Noel you are a real idiot, i wrote about how the Pirate Hawkins used a slave ship named Jesus, and that makes me a fanatic, you only use those words because the slave masters chrildren said it think for your self, and you can only repeat what you read, but you lack substance, go check up on history and maybe you can learn something of your history
Bolivar, I think you are mixing up culture with the religion. What you describe is more cultural than religious.
Technic,in most Muslim countries, Islam is the Religion which guides, the Civil law, and the most important aspect of these countries cultural identities
Therefore, it is almost impossible to separate the religion of these countries from the cultural practices, because the islamic religion is used as justification for the cultural practices,,,
it is the same thing as asking a rastaman to separate his religiois beliefs from his cultural heritage: they bothe go hand in hand:
My point is simply that Most Muslims contries forbid other religions being taught to their people, and in addition, makes it punishable by death to believe anything contrary what Islam dictates. For Example, if I were living anywhere in Arabia, Pakistan, Afganistan or Iran, and my Family were Muslim by religious tradition, and I started believing anything other than what Islam conforms to, i would be under the threat of death in most of these societies, and be considered an infidel. Most islamic states are not tolerant of anything other than muslim beliefs, and they have instituted a very strict set of civil laws to force adherance to islam. My point is that you should not have to force any religion on any person by using the guise of culture. Most people in these islamic society peacefully submit to islam just for that reason: they are peaceful people and they don't have any other knowledge available: Moreover, the implied threat of reprisal, and the undercurrent of cultural rejection is strong enough to dissuade most people from seeking Knowledge other than the information they are taught by their mullahs and clerics. Let me just ask 1 question: If Islam is a true representation of God, God will back up his WORD with His Power. HE will confirm it among all people as a sign that it holds truth.
I can go into any Muslim country, and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you will see blind people miraculously healed, and you will see the sick recover, and you will see them that are filled with demonic possesions get delivered, and you will see the burdens of them that Believe on him get relieved. In otherwords, GOD will back up his Word that the testimony of Jesus Christ is true.
You know why it is against the CIVIL law to Preach against Islam in islamic countries???
Because most fear the power of Christ, and when he Begins to reveal himself to them that Believe on his name, that he is ALIVE and holds the key of life, then a lot of the Muslims beliefs will be proven erroneous.
so they keep the people in spiritual, religious and cultural bondage>>
You see mi???
Bless.
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (12/02/0902:19 PM) Edit Reason: Capitalization
Bolivar: Have you ever lived in a Muslim country like I did? I did not see any one holding a gun over the heads of millions of people who went to the mosques on Fridays.I don't see anyone holding a gun at the millions of westerners who are turning to Islam every day to make it the world's fastest growing religion. Don't come with Western propogada when you post on this site. Think for yourself. "Emancipate yourself..." Bob.
Tman: Do i have to hold a gun to your head to make you follow the traffic laws???Likewise, most muslims living in muslim countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to islamic law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect". Most muslims when questioned about why they are muslim, answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every Born again, spirit filled Christian MUST make their own personal decision to follow Christ, and they in turn Have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is.
Originally Posted By: Tman
Answer to "I am" Jesus said "I am" so he must be God
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
Tman, You just showed me that you are not a well thinking person: I am going to show you from your own example of the context of what he said to beggar that the " I AM " in response to the Jews are two completely different sentences,, and therfore have two completely different meanings:
But before that, let me ask you how many times the Phrase "I AM " is written in the bible and how may times the context is as an auxilary VERB or ADVERB? The answer is HUNDREDS. Let me ask you again how many time the words "I AM " is used as a NOUN to PURELY describe "something" or someone?
The answer is two(2). Once in Exodus, when GOD revealed himself to Moses in the Burning bush, and once in the Book of John, when Jesus descrbed who he IS to the JEWS, by answering a direct question.
Jesus had many times before that incident said " I AM " when speaking to people. But not once did the Jews throw stones at him. Your own aguments above give testimony to that point. However, in this last statement, when he described himself to them simply as "I AM",, they began stoning him...
Now why didn't they stone him before??? Also why didn't they stone anyone that used the words" I AM " without any thing to clarify it??? the answer is simply that The context in which the term is used justifies what it means,,,,
in essence, the Jews Knew That JESUS was describing him self as the SAME "I AM" that told Moses in the burning bush "I AM"...as a result they stoned him. According to them, He was making himselg GOD, and at his crucifixixion, the high priests accused him of this and he DID NOT DENY IT!!!!
As to your question as to why Jesus never told anyone to worship him, ,,,it is simple....he EXPLICITLY told all his disciples that they should NEVER worship ANY Man but Only God. Yet, at the same time, the bible has at least 10 accounts of People Worshipping JESUS CHRIST, and he NEVER ONCE stopped them!!!!!How do you reason this point?????
Check it again!!!!
Bless.
Edited by Bolivar_dup1 (12/02/0902:14 PM) Edit Reason: Grammar
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Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
Originally Posted By: Technic
Bolivar, I think you are mixing up culture with the religion. What you describe is more cultural than religious.
Technic,in most Muslim countries, Islam is the Religion which guides, the Civil law, and the most important aspect of these countries cultural identities
Therefore, it is almost impossible to separate the religion of these countries from the cultural practices, because the islamic religion is used as justification for the cultural practices,,,
it is the same thing as asking a rastaman to separate his religiois beliefs from his cultural heritage: they bothe go hand in hand:
My point is simply that Most Muslims contries forbid other religions being taught to their people, and in addition, makes it punishable by death to believe anything contrary what Islam dictates. For Example, if I were living anywhere in Arabia, Pakistan, Afganistan or Iran, and my Family were Muslim by religious tradition, and I started believing anything other than what Islam conforms to, i would be under the threat of death in most of these societies, and be considered an infidel. Most islamic states are not tolerant of anything other than muslim beliefs, and they have instituted a very strict set of civil laws to force adherance to islam. My point is that you should not have to force any religion on any person by using the guise of culture. Most people in these islamic society peacefully submit to islam just for that reason: they are peaceful people and they don't have any other knowledge available: Moreover, the implied threat of reprisal, and the undercurrent of cultural rejection is strong enough to dissuade most people from seeking Knowledge other than the information they are taught by their mullahs and clerics. Let me just ask 1 question: If Islam is a true representation of God, God will back up his WORD with His Power. HE will confirm it among all people as a sign that it holds truth.
I can go into any Muslim country, and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you will see blind people miraculously healed, and you will see the sick recover, and you will see them that are filled with demonic possesions get delivered, and you will see the burdens of them that Believe on him get relieved. In otherwords, GOD will back up his Word that the testimony of Jesus Christ is true.
You know why it is against the CIVIL law to Preach against Islam in islamic countries???
Because most fear the power of Christ, and when he Begins to reveal himself to them that Believe on his name, that he is ALIVE and holds the key of life, then a lot of the Muslims beliefs will be proven erroneous.
so they keep the people in spiritual, religious and cultural bondage>>
You see mi???
Bless.
Still must disagree. Why is it that Muslims in the Western World do not behave like that? because the culture is different.
By Olivia Sterns, CNN December 2, 2009 12:02 p.m. EST Ethiopian domestic workers attend church services in Beirut, Lebanon.STORY HIGHLIGHTS 10 maids die in seven weeks, all suicides or falls from high buildings HRW: abusive work conditions, isolation and lack of recourse are causes 200,000 foreign maids work in Lebanon -- one for every four families Poor regulation of domestic labor and racism conspire against maids London, England (CNN) -- A recent spate of suicides by foreign maids in Lebanon is prompting outrage among human rights groups, who say the government is doing too little to protect migrant domestic workers from severe abuse.
Over the past seven weeks at least 10 women have died, either by hanging themselves or by falling from tall buildings. Six of these cases have been reported in local media as suicides and four more have been described as possible work accidents.
An Ethiopian woman working as a cleaner in Lebanon told CNN by phone that she was sad about the recent suicides, and that she had a friend who killed herself several years ago, when she too was working as a live-in maid.
"If the Madame maybe she is very bad, they feel there is no way, no solution," said the woman who asked not to be identified, referring to abuse by the female employer. "Everyone has a different case," though she added.
This is modern day slavery ... these suicides are just the tip of the iceberg
--Wissam, Ethiopiansuicides.blogspot.com "We are clearly seeing a high rate of suicide. The two leading causes of death for migrants is suicide [and] dying while trying to escape from employers," said Nadim Houry, Senior Researcher for Human Rights Watch (HRW) in Lebanon.
"This pattern [of abuse] is on going," Houry told CNN, citing "bad working conditions, isolation and a feeling of helplessness that comes from lack of recourse," as the sources of desperation that can drive these women to their deaths.
"It is ridiculous ... this is modern day slavery," said Wissam, a Lebanese activist who started a blog after he noticed four Ethiopian women committed suicide within 10 days in October.
"What about the things we don't know? These suicides are just the tip of the iceberg of the mistreatment of these women," he said.
In August 2008 HRW reported that more than one domestic worker was dying each week, either from suicide or failed escapes from abusive employers.
Rampant Abuse
There are more than 200,000 migrant domestic workers in Lebanon -- roughly one per every four families. Overwhelmingly they are women in their 20s and 30s who come alone from the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Nepal and Madagascar, to earn money to support families back home.
According to HRW, more than one third of foreign domestic workers in Lebanon are denied time off and more than 50 percent work at least 10 hours per day.
A 2001 International Labor Organization survey of Sri Lankan domestics in Lebanon found that 88 percent were given no time-off. Among the 70 respondents, nearly 30 percent said they were not given enough food to eat.
Over the past several years there have been increasing reports of exploitation documented in the media, including testimonies from domestic workers about withholding of wages, verbal or physical abuse and restrictions on free movement. Statistics on abuse are difficult to find though, because employees are often afraid to complain, prevented from doing so, or simply don't know how.
"The isolation is key ... Their passports are confiscated and they are often locked in. They are far from home, and not all of them can contact their families -- some can once per month," Houry told CNN.
One Nepalese maid who spoke to HRW from her hospital bed, after jumping from the third floor of her employer's building to escape, said she had seen snow-capped mountains from the window and thought she could walk across to find her village. She did not understand that Lebanon was thousands of miles away from her home in Nepal. "She just had no idea where she landed," Houry said.
Both charity organizations and foreign embassies in Lebanon say they have their hands full dealing with runaways and incidents of abuse.
In August, the Philippines Embassy reported that 117 women who had escaped from maltreatment were sleeping on the embassy floor. The Catholic relief organization CARITAS also estimated that they have an average of 40 runaway domestics sleeping in their shelter at any one time.
Roots of the Problem
The abuse faced by migrant domestic workers is a common problem throughout the Arab Middle East, both because of generally poor labor regulation and also cultural prejudice.
"The responsibility lies primarily with the state. There are no inspectors who can check on working conditions. The laws need to be modified," Houry said.
"The mistreatment of these women and the absence of any government protection is not just in Lebanon -- it's in all the Arab countries," Wissam said.
Neither the Lebanese Labor Ministry, nor General Security, who regulate migrant workers, could be reached for comment on this article.
Because domestic work is performed in the private sphere, it is not considered formal labor and is not covered by Lebanon's labor laws.
In January, the government issued a uniform contract for all maids, which took the critical step of guaranteeing one day off per week and decent working conditions. Rights activists say that the contracts though are not being enforced.
Both Houry and Wissam also pointed to social norms of prejudice that condone abuse. "There is racism against people of poor background and darker skin," Houry said.
This past summer an HRW investigation found that 17 private beaches, out of a nation-wide total of 27, do not allow Asian or African domestic workers to swim, which they argued reflects latent cultural racism in Lebanon.
"There is a mind set among some that says these women have to work for me, and if they don't do it, I have to beat them," Wissam said. "This misconception dehumanizes these women."
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Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
[quote=Technic]
I can go into any Muslim country, and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you will see blind people miraculously healed, and you will see the sick recover, and you will see them that are filled with demonic possesions get delivered, and you will see the burdens of them that Believe on him get relieved. In otherwords, GOD will back up his Word that the testimony of Jesus Christ is true.
You know why it is against the CIVIL law to Preach against Islam in islamic countries???
Because most fear the power of Christ, and when he Begins to reveal himself to them that Believe on his name, that he is ALIVE and holds the key of life, then a lot of the Muslims beliefs will be proven erroneous.
so they keep the people in spiritual, religious and cultural bondage>>
You see mi???
Bless.
What utter foolishness. Are there no Christian churches in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, UAE, Singapore? and others too numerous to mention? Are there any miracles happening there? You people are so Westernised and brainwashed its is unbelievable. PS I have a bridge to sell you.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1259
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Originally Posted By: Bolivar_dup1
Originally Posted By: Tman
Bolivar: Likewise, most CHRISTIANS living in CHRISTIAN countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to CHRISTIAN law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect" CHRISTIANS , answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every MUSLIM, MUST make their own personal decision to follow THE QURAN AND THE WORD OF GOD, and they in turn have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is, THE ONE TRUE GOD. This relationship is so personal, they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them, they relate and talk directly to HIM.
[quote=Tman]
Answer to "I am" Jesus said "I am" so he must be God
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
Tman, You just showed me that you are not a well thinking person: I am going to show you from your own example of the context of what he said to beggar that the " I AM " in response to the Jews are two completely different sentences,, and therfore have two completely different meanings:
But before that, let me ask you how many times the Phrase "I AM " is written in the bible and how may times the context is as an auxilary VERB or ADVERB? The answer is HUNDREDS. Let me ask you again how many time the words "I AM " is used as a NOUN to PURELY describe "something" or someone?
The answer is two(2). Once in Exodus, when GOD revealed himself to Moses in the Burning bush, and once in the Book of John, when Jesus descrbed who he IS to the JEWS, by answering a direct question.
Jesus had many times before that incident said " I AM " when speaking to people. But not once did the Jews throw stones at him. Your own aguments above give testimony to that point. However, in this last statement, when he described himself to them simply as "I AM",, they began stoning him...
Now why didn't they stone him before??? Also why didn't they stone anyone that used the words" I AM " without any thing to clarify it??? the answer is simply that The context in which the term is used justifies what it means,,,,
in essence, the Jews Knew That JESUS was describing him self as the SAME "I AM" that told Moses in the burning bush "I AM"...as a result they stoned him. According to them, He was making himselg GOD, and at his crucifixixion, the high priests accused him of this and he DID NOT DENY IT!!!!
As to your question as to why Jesus never told anyone to worship him, ,,,it is simple....he EXPLICITLY told all his disciples that they should NEVER worship ANY Man but Only God. Yet, at the same time, the bible has at least 10 accounts of People Worshipping JESUS CHRIST, and he NEVER ONCE stopped them!!!!!How do you reason this point?????
Check it again!!!!
Bless.
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Likewise, most CHRISTIANS living in CHRISTIAN countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to CHRISTIAN law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect" CHRISTIANS , answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every MUSLIM, MUST make their own personal decision to follow THE QURAN AND THE WORD OF GOD, and they in turn have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is, THE ONE TRUE GOD. This relationship is so personal, they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them, they relate and talk directly to HIM.
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Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and 2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or 2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request? So because Jesus(PBUH) didn't stop people from "worshiping" him, that means he is God? Could the word translated as "worship" in English be another "scribal error" or "misunderstanding the original Hebrew"? Or did Jesus' (pbuh) true message only take hold on these ten occasions? So we would have to judge his mission as a failure if only 10 people "worshiped" him.
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Jesus is God almighty the Creator of all things, go study the scriptures Tman and ask God to open you're eyes and your ears and to give you an understanding heart. Even better, ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins and invite Him to come into you're life and He will fill you with the Holy spirit who will guide you into all truth. and that is a promise from a holy God who can't lie.
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More blah,blah and no explanation. Just blind acceptance and no thinking for yourself. Solve the puzzle: Friday evening to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain the math Mr Slippery.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
More blah,blah and no explanation. Just blind acceptance and no thinking for yourself. Solve the puzzle: Friday evening to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain the math Mr Slippery.
Tman, keep the math and I will blind faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Tman,By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac. By faith in the Divine justice and wisdom behind the command so to act. By faith in the veracity and faithfulness of God to make good His own promises. Fully assured that God was able to fulfill His word, Abraham closed his eyes to all difficulties, and steadfastly counted upon the power of Him that cannot lie. This is the very nature or character of a spiritual faith: it persuades the soul of God’s absolute supremacy, unerring wisdom, unchanging righteousness, infinite love, almighty power. In other words, it rests upon the character of the living God, and trusts Him in the face of every obstacle. Spiritual faith makes its favored possessor judge that the greatest suffering is better than the least sin; yea, it unhesitatingly avows "Thy loving kindness is better than life" (Ps. 63:3).
Likewise, most CHRISTIANS living in CHRISTIAN countries would never dare to question their religion, or read and listen to anything that does not conform to CHRISTIAN law and tradition as indicated in their country. In these countries, the fear of the reprisal is more powerful than literally "holding a gun" to the head of individuals. Most people were born and raised that way, and have not been exposed to anything else because of tradition which is steeped in fear and formally dressed up as "respect" CHRISTIANS , answer that it is their traditional religion, and are perfectly happy to dogmatically follow the traditions for the sake of peace and respect. On the other hand, every MUSLIM, MUST make their own personal decision to follow THE QURAN AND THE WORD OF GOD, and they in turn have a personal RELATIONSHIP with Him. Most of the time he will personally reveal Himself to them and impart his Spirit upon them to let them know who HE REALLY is, THE ONE TRUE GOD. This relationship is so personal, they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them, they relate and talk directly to HIM.
Tman,
I don't mean you any harm, and i naw come to you like i know everything,,, but just want you to understand where I a come from....
You see I was not brought up "in church". Quite the contrary: I am into nature and Science. Without empirical evidence, you could not (and still cannot) get me to believe anything.
As a matter of a fact my dad was a partially converted RASTAMAN, and as a youth he is the one that taught me how to reason out a thing,, so we can know the truth of the matter.
At one point, I thought Christianity was really a tool of the slave master to brainwash the masses into submission ( and this is not far from truth as to the intent of the slavemasters). As a result, I steadfastly sought for truth by searching about my roots tru knowledge from AFrica, and the middle east, and learned about Islam, hinduism and nuff other isims and schisms..
yet only When I decided to call upon the name of JESUS CHRIST to empirically prove whether his Words were just vain and empty promises, di I discover the POWER of GOD!!!
So you can study many things out of books, but When you get in touch with the POWER OF THE LIVING ETERNAL GOD, then the proof your knowledge of a thing becomes real and tangible, although it cannot be seen....
So ,,Why are you bringing up comments bout "they don't need a priest or pastor or saints or "mother of god' to intercede for them" All this time we a reason round ya so,, have you ever heard me a talk nonsense bout Hail mary????Me no inna di Hail Mary or pray to idol nonesense,,,!!!!Mi talk to GOD LivIng and Direct, because he is Omniscient, and HIS ears are not short so he can't hear our cries!!!
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Do the math, Friday to Sunday is not 3 days. Me nuh need no "bridge" i.e. Jesus (Pbuh) between me and God, me talk to him pon a direct line.
Tman you're a spritual mad man, how can you have a direct line to God when Isaiah 59:2 said: But your iniquities have separated you from your God? Tman to get a direct line to God you have to go through the Blood of Jesus. Blood of Jesus - What does it mean? The blood of Jesus is the foundation of redemption. Jesus Christ died on the cross, shedding His blood, (and was then resurrected) as the only acceptable payment for our sins. The disciple Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:18-19, “For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.” The Blood of Jesus Christ is absolutely the most precious thing God has offered us.
Every human born has sinned against God and fallen short of His standard (Romans 3:23). We do not and cannot earn salvation by keeping the Old Testament Law or by simply being a good person. We will fail every time; it is in our nature to sin. It is only through God sacrificing His Son Jesus in our place, that we can acquire complete forgiveness. We can all attain this by accepting Jesus as our Savior, and accepting that He shed His blood to atone for the sins of all who repent. The act of communion does not save us, but we honor this wonderful gift from God with communion as a way to remember His sacrifice.
Tman, the Blood of Jesus - Why is this required? In the Old Testament (after Adam’s original sin), God accepted the death of an animal as a substitute for the sinner. The animal’s shed blood was proof that that one life had to be given for another. Life is precious and God places great value on each one of His created beings. This agreement demonstrated that, while blood symbolized death, it also showed that a life was spared. However, this was a temporary covenant. This blood needed to be repeated daily and yearly.
God would later send His only Son providing a new covenant, or New Testament through Jesus Christ. Jesus would die in the place of all sinners. His sacrifice fulfilled completely what the Old Testament covenant meant to. His blood would remove the sins of the world for all who put their faith in Him. This sacrifice would never have to be repeated; it is an eternal covenant.
John the Baptist called Jesus the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29) The Lamb of course, referenced the unblemished animal sacrifice of old. There are many references to sacrificial offerings in the Old Testament. One that may be most familiar is the sprinkling of blood on the Hebrew doorposts when they were held in bondage by the Pharaoh of Egypt. This act provided God’s protection as His curse of the death angel passed through the streets. This curse was just one that God sent down on Pharaoh, moving him to release these Hebrew slaves.
The event was then commemorated in the Hebrew Feast of Passover. It is now recognized as a “type” or foreshadowing of the blood of Jesus. The blood is a powerful, freeing, and protecting provision from God. As one Christian hymn says, “There is power, power, wonder-working power in the precious blood of the Lamb.” If you have asked Jesus to be Lord of your life, then you too have applied the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts of your heart. He is covering your heart, and your life with his protection and ever-lasting forgiveness of sin.
Blood of Jesus - How is this possible? It is possible for everyone to have the protection and forgiveness that the blood of Jesus provides. Regardless of what sins and offenses we have committed against God, He offers this gift to each of us. John 3:17 tells us that Jesus didn’t come to condemn us but to save us.
It is not enough to say we believe in God or know about Him. We must want to know Him personally and accept the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, to receive it. The Bible, God’s Holy Word, says that no one can enter heaven or get to the Father except through the Son (John 14:6) And in John 6:40, Jesus says that all who believe in Him will receive everlasting life -- with Him! We are only asked to believe (have faith), repent (turn from sin), receive (salvation through Jesus), confess Him, and transfer ownership of our lives to Him. If you have never asked Jesus into your life, won’t you ask Him now?
Wich Jesus are we talking about?,check out the book of Acts :5:30 and 13:29; The God of our Fathers raised Jesus from the dead --- whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.13:29, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb, bearing in mind that the bible also uses symbolic language.
In the Holy Quran, the family of Amran, speaking of Jesus, and he will speak to the people when in the cradle and of old age, and he will be one of the good ones, and he will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. Jesus of two thousand years ago did not teach the Torah or the Gospel we hear of his account trough Mathew, Mark, luke and John, neither did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and what is the Book ? is it the Holy Quran, or is it a new Revelation, and lastly Jesus of 2000 years ago never lived to be of old age he only lived to be 36 years old, the Holy Quran was revealed to THE Prophet, he never taught the book.
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There is no blood offering required because God forgave Adam (PBUH) so there is no "original sin" to make up for: Qur'an:2.37: Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. God had mercy on Adam (PBUH) i.e. He forgave him. Break it down simple: if you have one mango, and no means of getting another one, and gave it your friend, then that is a sacrifice on your part. If you have a mango tree in your yard: no sacrifice. God made Jesus (PBUH) and can make many more like him, so where is the sacrifice if Jesus (PBUH) did die on the cross? Islam believes everyone is born free of sin and are guilty only of the sins that you commit. How can a newborn baby be held responsible for what Adam and Eve (PBUT) did so long ago? God used to accept animal sacrifice from YOUR animals, because YOU are losing something when you kill it. If Jesus (PBUH) was killed on the cross YOU are not losing anything because he did not belong to YOU, so how can it be a sacrifice for YOUR sake? Or in that case we can go on sinning then because "Jesus died for our sins".
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Tman, Muslims in general reject the Christian concept of the fallen nature of humanity which resulted from Adam's rebellious attitude against God. Adam indeed disobeyed God, yet - according to Islam - every person is responsible for his own actions. If a person is righteous and practices what is good, he will be rewarded greatly, but if he deviates from the straight path and commits evil, he will surely suffer in an eternal hell. As the offspring of Adam we could not inherit Adam's sin and be accountable for it in God's eyes. Muslims ask, for example, If a man's arm is amputated, does that mean that his son will be born with one arm? And, by the same analogy, How can Adam's descendants inherit Adam's sin? Moreover, does the justice of God decree that children should bear the iniquities of their forefathers? These questions have often been raised to negate any possible need for a divine incarnation and/or redemptive act such as Christians see in the cross of Christ. Christians agree that if anyone is righteous and practices only good, he will be rewarded with heaven, but they also maintain that none except Christ meets that criterion. All others have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God because they inherited a sinful nature from Adam. For them divine intervention was an inevitable necessity for the redemption of fallen and sinful human beings. If we are really interested in probing the depth of this spiritual understanding of the fallen nature of mankind, we must examine objectively the story of that fall both in Islam and in Christianity.
Because of space limitations I will not attempt to quote all the verses cited in the Qur'an and the Bible which deal with this issue but rather select the most significant references which will highlight points under discussion and provide us with a deeper insight into the subject.
It is stated in the Qur'an, Sura (Chapter) 2:36, concerning Adam's disobedience:
Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get out of the state of (felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity among yourselves; on earth will be your dwelling place, and your means of livlihood for a time." In the commentary of the Jalalayn on this verse we read:
We said: "Get ye down" to the earth; that is, you and your offspring still contained within you. "among yourselves" means some of your offspring will harbor enmity for some others because of your oppression towards each other. This means that God cast Adam and Eve and all those who were yet to be born to them in future generations out of paradise as a penalty for the disobedience of their parents and thus all mankind, represented in Adam and Eve, were punished.
If we scrutinize the details of the story of the fall closely, we will realize that the consequences were more serious than the mere action of punishment. As a result of this rebellion against God, a drastic change occurred in human nature. The Qur'an indicates that "all of you will become hostile to each other." This means that sin has entered the world and has created a new state of life. Human nature became enslaved to the power of sin and even the entire universe was subjected to a significant modification, for when Adam was settled in paradise God designated him to be the master of the earth, reigning over all its creatures. But as soon as he committed his sin and rebelled against God, that paradisical world in which Adam and Eve dwelt changed completely and became a world of evil, oppression, iniquity and polytheism. Even Adam's repentance did not help him much. Yes, God did accept his repentance and forgave him (according to the Qur'an - see verse 37) but neither Adam nor his descendants were able to return to paradise nor even to find it again. Since then suffering, misery, and hostility have dominated man's life.
`Abdullah Yusuf `Ali, a translator of the Qur'an into English, comments on this verse:
Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind and the sexes go together in all spiritual matters. This is a sound statement. Adam was, at the time, the representative of mankind when he committed his sin. Thus, when he fell, his offspring fell with him.
There are a few other verses in the Qur'an which denote the responsibility of Adam as the representative of the human race. For example, in Sura 7:172-173 we read:
When God drew forth from children of Adam - from his loins - their descendants and made them testify concerning themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?" They said: "Yea! We do testify! (This), lest you should say on the day of judgment: 'Of this we were never mindful.' Or lest you should say: 'Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them; wilt thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?'" In the commentary of the Jalalayn we read the following interpretation:
He (God) drew forth each one of them from the loins of the other back to Adam, generation after generation in the form they will take when they are born. They were so numerous like the ants in Nu'man (a mountain) in the day of `Arafa. He erected in front of them the evidences of His deity and installed in them brains and made them testify concerning themselves. Muhammad Farid Wagdi in his commentary on these verses, says:
Remember that your God drew forth from the loins of the children of Adam their offspring in the same form they will take (when they are born) century after century and erected in front of them the evidences of His deity and installed in their brains the capacity to make them recognize these evidences. Thus they were elevated to the level of those who were told: "Am I not your Lord? They said, Yes." Thus their full knowledge of it and their being deeply rooted in it made them, so to speak, witnesses, lest they say in the Day of Judgment: "Of this (that is, their knowledge of God) we were never mindful." Or they say: "Our fathers have taken false gods, thus we followed them. Wilt thou destroy us because of the coeds of the futile people?" `Abdullah Yusuf `Ali goes one step farther in his understanding of the above verse. He says:
The words of the text refer to the descendants of Adam; i.e., to all humanity, born or unborn, without any limit of time. Adam's seed carries on the existence of Adam and succeeds to his spiritual heritage. Humanity as such has a corporate aspect. This is a clear confirmation of the deputyship of Adam for all mankind. According to the aforementioned comments, God performed a miracle in which He drew forth the posterity of Adam who were yet to be born up to the Day of Judgment to make each one of them testify concerning themselves and bound each individual by a covenant. Then He replaced them in Adam's loins.
This interpretation is not foreign to Islamic theology. In fact Ibn `Abbas transmits to us Muhammad's interpretation of the text of these two verses:
God took the pledge from the loins of Adam in Nu'man; i.e., `Arafa. He drew forth all his posterity which He created and dispersed them in His presence like ants. He talked to them and said: "Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, we testify!" Lest they say in the Day of Judgment, "Of this (i.e., the knowledge of God) we were never mindful." Ibn `Abbas also said:
In the beginning when God cast Adam to earth He sent him to a desert in the land of India. Then he rubbed his loins and drew forth every soul he decided to create until the Day of Judgment. That took place in Nu'man which is behind mount `Arafa. God then talked to them end enabled them to speak. He took from them the pledge that they will worship him and never associate anything with Him. (He did that) after He installed in them brains and granted for them their sustenance and determined the length of their life-span, their afflictions, and so forth. Then He replaced them in Adam's loins. Thus the Day of Judgment will never come until everyone who gave his pledge is born. (See also Al-Khazin II, 191.). Abu Hurayra also quoted Muhammad's saying:
Thus Adam disobeyed and his descendants disobeyed likewise. Adam forgot and ate from the tree; likewise his offspring also forgot. Adam sinned and his posterity sinned too! (Quoted by Tarmadhi and others.) It is obvious from these verses, interpretations and traditions that Adam is recognized by Muslims as the representative of his offspring and that the Qur'an alludes to this. Thus Adam, by his disobedience and sin, made all his descendants sin too. Undoubtedly corruption permeated the essence of Adam's nature and caused a drastic change in its components, in some respects similar to the way a genetic change may produce a new breed or significantly alter an old breed. This change in human nature was transmitted to Adam's seed who inherited his fallen nature and his propensities.
In Sahih al-Bukhari (Vol. 3:1213, No. 3156)* there is further evidence of the veracity of this interpretation. We read:
We were told on the authority of Qays Ibn Hafasa ... on the authority of Muhammad that God says to the one who suffers least among the people of hell: "If you possess all the wealth of the world with which to redeem (yourself, would you do that?)" He said, "Yes." Then God said, "I had asked something which is much easier than this while you were still in the loins of Adam: Not to associate other gods with Me. Yet you have refused and worship false gods." Therefore, we must ask, What happened to this posterity which pledged to worship God and not to associate others with Him so that it failed to fulfill its promise and broke its pledge? The only conclusion which explains this tragic failure is that it inherited the fallen nature of Adam, the father of mankind, who, in his capacity as the representative of man, has failed to live up to God's expectations. How else can the Muslim explain the observable fact that all human beings continue to repeat Adam's sin of rebellion against the known will of God?
There is another tradition ascribed to Muhammad based on the authority of `Abdullah which says:
Whenever a soul is killed unjustly the first son of Adam (Cain) would bear part of its blood (responsibility) because he was the first who decreed assassination. (Al-Bukhari 3:3157. See also nos. 6473 & 6890.) Thus if Cain, according to Muhammad, was morally responsible for every soul unjustly killed, why should not Adam be responsible for bequeathing the fallen nature of man to his seed, to those who carried his own characteristics and genes? Was it not Adam the first man who first disobeyed God? Yes, and so corruption has permeated the nature of man through his first parent.
The Qur'an declares in Sura 5:32:
On that account we ordained for the children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. `Ali explains:
To kill or seek to kill an individual because he represents an ideal is to kill all who uphold the ideal. On the other hand, to save an individual life in the same circumstances is to save a whole community. In light of the above quotations we can see that no instruction or teaching or guidance will ever enable us to restore the pristine essence of sinless human nature as it was manifested in Paradise. The essential change which is required is a change in the very nature of mankind. All the prophets have failed to generate any change in human nature or in man's character. Yes they called people to worship God only and to live according to the Ten Commandments, but that call could not change people. They knew the shortcomings of man and that he is bound by chains of sin. They realized also that all their teaching had failed to produce salvation because no one was able to meet God's standards nor His righteous demands. In this respect the Bible and the Qur'an agree.
The Bible asserts the existence of original sin which we have all inherited from Adam. We read in Romans 5:12:
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, so death spread to all men, because all sinned. Thus the progeny of Adam carried forward all the characteristics of his fallen nature and became subject to the sentence of death. In other words, Adam sinned; therefore all his descendants sinned with him, too. Sin has distorted God's image in man. The Bible asserts that God created man in his own image; i.e., He bestowed on him reason, will, ability of free choice, freedom of conscience, and creativity. But man abused the freedom with which God blessed him and chose to rebel against God in the person of Adam. Soon this rebellious nature dominated the will of mankind and corrupted it. Therefore the fall of Adam was not a temporary defect but rather a determinative event which had a tragic impact on the universe. Its effect has afflicted not only individuals but the entire human race across the ages. Since this nature became subject to the condemnation of God, man was destined to suffer in an eternal hell forever because God's holiness does not tolerate sin. "The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This is God's law and justice. Yet, God is LOVE. He created man in His own image which He would never dishonor for His own sake. Thus He planned a way of salvation for mankind. His plan is the only straight path which delivers man from his dilemma. God's holiness demanded justice while His love pleaded for mercy and forgiveness. In order to meet the requirements of His holiness, justice, and love, the living Word of God, Christ, with all His perfection, righteousness and goodness became incarnate because of His great love for all people and suffered in Himself the consequences of their sin. Man has failed to save himself from the bondage of his fallen nature; therefore the righteous One, the Christ, who is free from all iniquity, determined to pay the price for our redemption. So He, the Living Word of God, became flesh and was crucified; that is, God's judgment fell upon Jesus who by His own choice and because of His love granted to us the gift of freedom and forgiveness of sin. The Bible says:
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (II Corinthians 5:19) In other words, Christ's voluntary incarnation and His death on the cross opened wide the door of freedom for us because we became righteous in God's eyes through Jesus Christ has paid the price on our behalf by His atoning death. Our only obligation is to accept Him by faith. His sacrificial act of love enables Him to restore our pristine nature which was distorted by sin. II Corinthians 5:17 says:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. The "new things" include our fallen human nature which is formed anew. It is now liberated, by the riving power manifested in Christ's death end resurrection, from its old dispositions. Christ has restored to it its beauty, purity and the greatness which it lost as the result of the fall. This restoration was not possible without God's intervention. That is why the verse above says: "New things have come."
The act of creation cannot be performed apart from Christ. Christ Himself realized the impossibility of man's deliverance from his inevitable destiny without divine intervention. This is why He said:
Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28) Christ did not reguest that sinners should free themselves first, then come unto Him. He knew perfectly well that man is not able to justify himself before God. This is an impossible task. So he summoned them unto Him, as they were, burdened with sins, in order to recreate them anew. Then, and only then, they will be justified because the righteous Christ atoned for them by His death, for:
He who knew no sin was made to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (II Corinthians 5:25) Or, as the apostle Peter says:
He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. (I Peter 2:24) John, the apostle, reiterates the same idea as he states:
And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:5) The phrase "take away sins" was not possible without an atoning act which meets all the requirements of God's justice and holiness. The Bible summaries this basic fact when it states:
... without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22) The true greatness of this redemptive act is that Jesus was not compelled to carry out this responsibility, but He voluntarily gave Himself, of His own free will, to save us from the condemnation of eternal hell. In Hebrews 9:14 we read:
Of how much more value is the blood of Christ Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God. Even Christ Himself said publicly:
For this reason the Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from me, but I lay it down on my own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. (John 10:17-18) In short, the fallen nature of man which he inherited from Adam is a fact recognized by both Islam and Christianity. But this nature could not be changed by guidance, instruction or teaching because such a change requires an internal transformation which touches the depths of the human soul. Doctrines have failed to produce such change because they lack spiritual power. Man's endeavors can never acquire God's favor or reach the level required by His justice. Who among us, for instance, can comply completely with the Ten Commandments? What prophet is there who did not commit sin and did not need to ask for forgiveness? The founder of Islam himself attested, as recorded in more than one sound tradition, that he asked for forgiveness seventy times a day. If the prophets from Adam to the latest prophets of the Old Testament have failed to meet God's requirements without offering a sin sacrifice, how could any ordinary man elevate himself to a level which pleases God???
For this reason the sinless, perfect and righteous One became incarnate to liberate us from the bonds of iniquity and has elevated us to a higher level and made us acceptable to God. The divine love was embodied in Christ on the cross. The Bible epitomizes the majesty and greatness of God's love in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. By the merits of the Living Word of God we are liberated from our fallen nature which we inherited from our forefather, Adam, and therefore we are justified in the presence of God as we become new creatures in Christ
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We do not deny the existience of sin as all the above tries to prove. What we say is every person will bear the guilt of HIS OWN sin and can be forgiven by GOD without the need for Jesus (PBUH) to die on the cross. I like how you are always trying to present the Islamic argument. That is my job. You should stick to presenting the Christian argument.
Here is how Muslims view "atonement". Does God need a "blood atonement"?
"And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion." Mark 2:1-12
When Paul came with his new and innovative ideas on how to improve upon the message of Jesus (pbuh), he began by dropping specific commandments. This continued until he decided that his alleged "visions" were sufficient authority to completely discard all of the commandments which both prophet Moses as well as prophet Jesus (pbut) both observed very strictly throughout their lives. The fact that both of these prophets are well known to have spent their lives commanding their followers to uphold these laws and commandments is casually brushed aside by "St. Paul." His "visions," we are told, are higher in authority than the commands of Jesus (pbuh) during his lifetime.
Once Paul was finished nullifying the law of God through Moses and Jesus and simplifying the religion for them he began to get many converts. This is because his "Christianity" only required "faith" and no actual work (Romans 3:28). But faith without work was too flimsy a concept to build one's whole way of life around. Paul needed a stupendous and monumental event to have faith IN order for his claims to be accepted by anyone. Thus the original sin and the atonement were born.
Paul claimed that God Almighty had created mankind inherently sinful and as inheritors of "the sin of Adam." He claimed that this hereditary burden was so great that the creator of all of the heavens and earth, and yes, the creator of the concepts of sin and forgiveness themselves, could not forgive this sin. This, in Paul's estimation, was beyond God's capabilities. Paul preached that the only way the creator of the heavens and the earth and everything in-between could forgive this sin was to have his sinless "only begotten son" beaten, spat on, stripped, whipped, cut, humiliated, and finally killed in the most gruesome and drawn-out way known to man at the time; by hanging on the cross, and thus becoming a curse upon mankind.
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree" Galatians 3:13:
Only then would God be able to forgive this sin.
However, if we were to read the words of Jesus (pbuh) in Mark 2:9 we would find that Jesus (pbuh) informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.
However, we already know that God Almighty the "Father" of all believers
"And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"
Matthew 23:9
We further know that God Almighty is greater in power than all humans, inluding Jesus:
"..my Father is greater than I", John 14:28
Finally, we know that Jesus (pbuh) gets his power from God:
"I can of mine own self do nothing...," John 5:30
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"Acts 2:22
So it stands to reason that what is easy for Jesus (pbuh) is trivial and inconsequential for God Almighty Himself. Thus, if Jesus (pbuh) can forgive sins with the utmost ease simply by uttering the words "your sins are forgiven you," then it is well within the ability of God Almighty Himself to do the same simply by willing it, even without uttering a word. Indeed, we can even read in the Bible:
"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy." Micah 7:18
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again." Psalm 78:38-39
"I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25
Well, how then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a sinless individual before He can do this? To get the answer let us read the Bible:
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin." Jeremiah 36:3
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah." Psalm 32:5
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..." Proverbs 16:6
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Ezekiel 18:21-30
"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:6-8
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:11-18
This is indeed the teachings of Islam. In the Qur'an, we are told that mankind were created to inhabit the earth. When Adam and Eve were first created, they were allowed to abide in the garden. However, soon after they ate from the tree and God sent them down to earth. Once Adam realized his error he was remorseful and repentant, however, he was the first man. He did not know how to repent or how to seek forgiveness. So, God Almighty provided him with a revelation teaching him how to ask for God's forgiveness. Adam did so and God accepted Adam's repentance. God did not mandate gruesome and torturous blood sacrifices of the sinless or anything else. He simply forgave Adam's sin. We can read this story in the Qur'an:
"And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise, and eat from it freely with pleasure and delight wherever you will, but do not approach this tree or you both will be of the wrongdoers. But Satan made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), such that he expelled them from that in which they were. And we said: Decend, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment until a time. Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He pardoned him. Verily! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. We said: Decend, all of you, from hence; but whenever there comes to you a guidance from Me, then whosoever follows My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. But they who disbelieve and deny our revelations, such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shall abide therein forever" The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):35-39
"Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful." The noble Qur'an, Al-Zumar(39):53
Anas ibn Malik narrated in Mishkat Al-Masabih the following: "Allah's Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh) stated that Allah said, "O Son of Adam, as long as you supplicate to Me and have hope in me I will pardon you in spite of what you have done, and I do not care. O Son of Adam, if your sins were so numerous as to reach the lofty regions of the sky, then you asked My forgiveness, I would forgive you, and I do not care. O Son of Adam, if you were to meet Me with enough sins to fill the earth, then met Me, not associating anything with Me (in worship), I shall greet you with it's equivalent in forgiveness.'"
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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Tman, are you rejecting God's plan of salvation? I need a yes or no answer please.
God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.
You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.Your soul is worth more than all the world.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.
God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth: Pray -- you talk to God. Read your Bible -- God talks to you. Witness -- you talk for God. You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32)
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YOU say its God's plan, but we Muslims have a different view and its contained in the only Book free form errors, the Holy Qur'an, send down to the Prophet Muhhammad (PBUH) and guarded by God Himself from corruption, or "mis-translations'.
A Muslim view: THE "GOD" THAT NEVER WAS Islam is the only religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT God. A perfect God means that there is no sharer in His Nature and His Attributes: "Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an,112:1-4) There has appeared a man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly cherishing the self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert Muslims to Christianity. Because he is a lawyer by profession, he is adept at juggling with words and quoting the Holy Qur'an totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to believe that Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an antithesis of the Absolute perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta'Aala! Thus intent upon reversing the process of Truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Qur'an, 17:81). In this he will never succeed because the process of Truth is irreversible.
TWO REASONS He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, viz: (i) "When we say Jesus is deity (or even God for that matter), we do not make him the Father! He is one with the Father and therefore HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and (ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father". In short, according to him, Jesus is God because He SHARES THE NATURE OF GOD, and HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training. Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can,therefore, NEVER be GOD. We have given the quotations from the Bible withoutcomment, because the Bible speaks for itself! TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND AND INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN! (Note: Unless otherwise stated, all quotations from the Bible are given from the Authorized Version. In our headings and subheadings we have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted commas in order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man that Jesus is God!)
THE BIRTH OF "GOD" "God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh."(Romans, 1:3) "God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke,2:6) which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered."(Revelation, 12:2) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27) The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1) The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3),"and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking,and they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed."(Mark, 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27)
THE FAMILY OF "GOD" "God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him,we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write,Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45) Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this manthis wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew, 13:54-56) THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD" Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40) Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." (Luke, 2:52) "God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42) The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) "God" Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14-15) "God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8) THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) THE MISSION OF "GOD" The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11). "God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12) THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13) A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow."(Mark, 4:38) A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John,11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave."(John, 11:38) A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38) A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy."(Mark, 14:33) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43) THE WARRING "GOD" The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15) The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34) The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke, 22:36) The "GOD" ON THE RUN "God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54) "God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59) THE CAPTURE OF "GOD" A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67) "God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said: "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, he is guilty of death."(Matthew, 26:66) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32) THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD" The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost."(Mark, 15:37) The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33) The Supposed Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered."(Matthew, 27:58) The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59) The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion sawwhat was done, he glorified God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man."(Luke, 23:47) EPILOGUE According to this self-appointed apostle of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i)"HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with this Christian. Either he must prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBAL LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!! He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophecy was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammed (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)!
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Let me repeat again, Tman, are you rejecting God's plan of salvation? I need a yes or no answer please.
God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.
You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.Your soul is worth more than all the world.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.
God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth: Pray -- you talk to God. Read your Bible -- God talks to you. Witness -- you talk for God. You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32)
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Let ME repeat; YOU believe it is God's plan, but pardon me for having a different set of beliefs.
Holy Qur’an: 17.013 Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
17.014 (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
17.015 Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).
"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" so we dont need Jesus (PBUH) to die for us.
Are YOU sure you are saved? I thought that was up to God to decide. Or are you taking on the power of God too? Again I am confused: you say "God's power will save you" then "You must believe in Jesus to be saved", so God alone cannot save you, He needs "help" from Jesus?. Sorry, I believe in the Power and Mercy of the ONE Almighty God who needs no help, no son, no mother, no trinity to decide who is admitted to Heaven on the Day of Judgment. Commandment 1: I am the Lord thy God, thou shall put no other before me. Hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE Lord. There is no god but Allah (GOD) and Muhammad is His messenger.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Let ME repeat; YOU believe it is God's plan, but pardon me for having a different set of beliefs.
Holy Qur’an: 17.013 Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
17.014 (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
17.015 Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).
"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" so we dont need Jesus (PBUH) to die for us.
Are YOU sure you are saved? I thought that was up to God to decide. Or are you taking on the power of God too? Again I am confused: you say "God's power will save you" then "You must believe in Jesus to be saved", so God alone cannot save you, He needs "help" from Jesus?. Sorry, I believe in the Power and Mercy of the ONE Almighty God who needs no help, no son, no mother, no trinity to decide who is admitted to Heaven on the Day of Judgment. Commandment 1: I am the Lord thy God, thou shall put no other before me. Hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE Lord. There is no god but Allah (GOD) and Muhammad is His messenger.
All I am asking for is a simple yes or no answer please.
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I believe in God's plan for salvation, but its is not the plan you believe in. Simple enough for you? I have a question for you too that requires a simple answer: Christians who claim to be reading form the same Book can’t even agree among themselves about the nature of Jesus (PBUH). Which one of the sects do you belong to? The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man and God. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man only. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man some of the time and God some of the time. I need an answer. These verses are for you. Qur’an 22.019: These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. 5.014: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
If you are an Unitarain, like the first “Christians” before Paul, there is some hope for you: 5. 66: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
But for those who differ and dispute over the nature of Jesus (PBUH): 5. 14: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
And for those who don’t believe in the Final Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) 4.150: Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- 4.151: They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating 4.152: To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And for those who claim “mother of God” and crucifiction: 4.156: That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; 4.157: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4.158: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4.159: And there is none of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.
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Noel, I will not continue further discussions on this thread or any of the other threads until i get a simple yes or no answer from you: is the Qur'an the Word of God or the devil?
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel, I will not continue further discussions on this thread or any of the other threads until i get a simple yes or no answer from you: is the Qur'an the Word of God or the devil?
I already told you twice before, this is my third time telling you. I do not know where the Quran comes from, but I do know where the Bible comes from, but this is day number 3 and you can't answer a yes or no question. God provided a plan of salvation in the Bible:
Our problem is that our own sins condemn us to hell. The good news - the gospel - is that Jesus died for our sins. We answered the question, "What must I do?" and found that we must: Believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that He was raised from the dead. Repent. Confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord. Be immersed (in water) into Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. Repentance includes an actual change in behavior. Baptism is immersion in water, and it is essential to salvation. There is only one acceptable immersion - that is immersion into Christ through the medium of water as a result of an individual’s own desire to obey the gospel. If a person refuses to do God’s will, he will burn forever; if he does God’s will, he will live forever!
The Bible says there is only one way to Heaven Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)
Good works cannot save you. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Trust Jesus Christ today! Here's what you must do: Admit you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12)
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:10)
Be willing to turn from sin (repent). Jesus said: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:5)
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30)
Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)
Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Saviour. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10)
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
Are you rejecting God's plan of salvation? yes or no only.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
No. I am not rejecting God's plan for salvation.
Tman my friend, hope to call you my brother one day. Of all the living beings that dwell on planet Earth, one solitary creature was made “in the image of God.” On day six of His creative activity, God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.... And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them” (Genesis 1:26,27).
Mankind was not created in the physical image of God, of course, because God, as a Spirit Being, has no physical image (John 4:24; Luke 24:39; Matthew 16:17). Rather, mankind was fashioned in the spiritual, rational, emotional, and volitional image of God (Ephesians 4:24; John 5:39-40; 7:17; Joshua 24:15; Isaiah 7:15). Humans were superior to all other creatures. No other living being was given the faculties, the capacities, the capabilities, the potential, or the dignity that God instilled in each man and woman. Indeed, humankind is the peak, the pinnacle, and the apex, of God’s creation.
In its lofty position as the zenith of God’s creative genius, mankind was endowed with certain responsibilities. Men and women were to be the stewards of the entire Earth (Genesis 1:28). They were to glorify God in their daily existence (Isaiah 43:7). And, they were to consider it their “whole duty” to serve the Creator faithfully throughout their brief sojourn on the Earth (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
MAN’S PREDICAMENT: DISOBEDIENCE AND DEATH
Tman, unfortunately, the first man and woman used their volitional powers—and the free moral agency based on those powers—to rebel against their Maker. Finite man made some horribly evil choices, and so entered the spiritual state biblically designated as “sin.” The Old Testament not only presents in vivid fashion the entrance of sin into the world through Adam and Eve (Genesis 3), but also alludes to the ubiquity of sin within the human race when it says: “there is no man that sinneth not” (1 Kings 8:46). Throughout its thirty-nine books, the Old Covenant discusses time and again sin’s presence amidst humanity, and its destructive consequences. The great prophet Isaiah reminded God’s people: “Behold, Jehovah’s hand is not shortened that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear” (59:1-2).
The New Testament is no less clear in its assessment. The apostle John wrote: “Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). Thus, sin is defined as the act of transgressing God’s law. In fact, Paul observed that “where there is no law, neither is there transgression” (Romans 4:15). Had there been no law, there would have been no sin. But God had instituted divine law. And mankind freely chose to transgress that law. Paul reaffirmed the Old Testament concept of the universality of sin (1 Kings 8:46) when he stated that “all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
Tman, as a result, mankind’s predicament became serious indeed. Ezekiel lamented: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (18:20a). Once again, the New Testament writers reaffirmed such a concept. Paul wrote: “Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned” (Romans 5:12). He then added that “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Years later, James would write: “But each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is full-grown, bringeth forth death” (1:14-15).
As a result of mankind’s sin, God placed the curse of death on the human race. While all men and women must die physically as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin, each person dies spiritually for his or her own sins. Each person is responsible for himself, spiritually speaking. Tman, the theological position which states that we inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin is false, that's foolishness. We do not inherit the guilt; we inherit the consequences. And there is a great difference between the two. Consider, as an illustration of this point, the family in which a drunken father arrives home late one evening, and in an alcoholic stupor severely beats his wife and children. His spouse and offspring suffer the consequences of his drunkenness, to be sure. But it would be absurd to suggest that they are guilty of it! The same concept applies in the spiritual realm. People die physically because of Adam’s sin, but they die spiritually because of their own personal transgression of God’s law. In Ezekiel 18:20, quoted earlier, the prophet went on to say: “the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”
THE REALITY OF SIN
Stay with me now Tman, don't go anywhere. The reality of sin is all around us, is it not? Consider the ways in which mankind has been affected by sin.
Physically—Disease and death were introduced into this world as a direct consequence of man’s sin (Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:12).
Geophysically—Many features of the Earth’s surface that allow for such tragedies as earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, violent thunderstorms, etc. can be traced directly to the Great Flood of Noah’s day (which came as the result of man’s sin, Genesis 6:5ff.).
Culturally—The numerous communication problems that man experiences, due to the multiplicity of human languages, are traceable to ambitious rebellion on the part of our ancestors (Genesis 11:1-9).
Psychologically—Man generally is without the peace of mind for which his heart longs (look at the number of psychiatrists in the Yellow Pages of any telephone book!). Isaiah opined: “They have made them crooked paths; whosoever goeth therein doth not know peace” (59:8; cf. 57:21).
Spiritually—By sinning, man created a chasm between himself and God (Isaiah 59:2). Unless remedied, this condition will result in man’s being unable to escape the “judgment of hell” (Matthew 23:33), and in his being separated from God throughout all eternity (Revelation 21:8; 22:18-19).
The key phrase in the discussion above is that man’s sin will result in an eternal separation from God unless remedied. The question then becomes: Has God provided such a remedy? Thankfully, the answer is: Yes, He has.
GOD’S REMEDY FOR SIN
Regardless of how desperate, or how pitiful, man’s condition has become, one thing is for certain: God had no obligation to provide a means of salvation for the ungrateful creature who so haughtily turned away from Him, His law, and His beneficence. The Scriptures make this apparent when they discuss the fact that angels sinned (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6), and yet “not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham” (Hebrews 2:16). The rebellious creatures that once inhabited the heavenly portals were not provided a redemptive plan. But man was! Little wonder the psalmist inquired: “What is man, that thou art mindful of him?” (Psalm 8:4, emp. added).
Tman, why would God go to such great lengths for mankind, when His mercy was not even extended to the angels that once surrounded His throne? Whatever answers may be proffered, there can be little doubt that the Creator’s efforts on behalf of sinful man are the direct result of pure love. As a loving God (1 John 4:8), He acted out of a genuine concern, not for His own desires, but instead for those of His creation. And let us be forthright in acknowledging that Jehovah’s love for mankind was completely undeserved. The Scriptures make it clear that God decided to offer salvation—our “way home”—even though we were ungodly, sinners, and enemies (note the specific use of those terms in Romans 5:6-10). The apostle John rejoiced in the fact that: “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us” (1 John 4:10).
God’s love is universal, and thus not discriminatory in any fashion (John 3:16). He would have all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)—if they would be (John 5:40)—for He is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). And, Deity’s love is unquenchable. Read Romans 8:35-39 and be thrilled! Only man’s wanton rejection of God’s love can put him beyond the practical appropriation of heaven’s offer of mercy and grace.
God’s Plan In Preparation
Did God understand that man would rebel, and stand in eventual need of salvation from the perilous state of his own sinful condition? The Scriptures make it clear that He did. Inspiration speaks of a divine plan set in place even “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). After the initial fall of man, humankind dredged itself deeper and deeper into wickedness. When approximately a century of preaching by the righteous Noah failed to bring mankind back to God, Jehovah sent a worldwide flood to purge the Earth (Genesis 6-8). From the faithful Noah, several generations later, the renowned Abraham was descended, and, through him, eventually the Hebrew nation would be established. From that nation, the Messiah—God-incarnate—would come.
Some four centuries following Abraham, the Lord, through His servant Moses, gave to the Hebrews the written revelation that came to be known as the Law of Moses. Basically, this law-system had three purposes. First, its intent was to define sin and sharpen Israel’s awareness of it. To use Paul’s expression in the New Testament, the Law made “sin exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:7,13). Second, the law was designed to show man that he could not, by his own merit or efforts, save himself. For example, the Law demanded perfect obedience, and since no mere man could keep it perfectly, all stood condemned (Galatians 3:10-11). Thus, the Law underscored the need for a Savior—Someone Who could do for us what we were unable to do for ourselves. Third, in harmony with that need, the Old Testament pointed the way toward the coming of the Messiah. He was to be Immanuel—“God with us” (Matthew 1:23).
Mankind was prepared for the coming of the Messiah in several ways. Theophanies were temporary appearances of God in various forms (see Genesis 16:7ff.; 18:1ff.; 22:11ff., etc.). A careful examination of the facts leads to the conclusion that many of these manifestations were of the preincarnate Christ. In addition, the Old Testament contains types (pictorial previews) of the coming Messiah. For example, every bloody sacrifice was a symbol of the “Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Finally, there are more than 300 prophecies containing countless minute details that speak of the coming Prince of Peace. These prophecies name the city in which He was to be born, the purpose of His earthly sojourn, and even the exact manner of His death. The simple fact is, Jehovah left no stone unturned in preparing the world for the coming of the One Who was to save mankind.
God’s Plan In Action
One of God’s attributes, as expressed within Scripture, is that He is an absolutely holy Being (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3). As such, He simply cannot ignore the fact of sin. The prophet Habakkuk wrote: “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong” (1:13). Yet another of God’s attributes is that He is absolutely just. Righteousness and justice are the very foundation of His throne (Psalm 89:14). The irresistible truth arising from the fact that God is both holy and just is that sin must be punished!
If God were a cold, vengeful Creator (as some infidels wrongly assert), He simply could have banished mankind from His divine presence forever, and that would have been the end of the matter. But the truth is, He is not that kind of God! Our Creator is loving (1 John 4:8), and “rich in mercy” (Ephesians 2:4). Thus, the problem became: How could a loving, merciful God pardon rebellious humanity?
Paul addressed this very matter in Romans 3. How could God be just, and yet a justifier of sinful man? The answer: He would find someone to stand in for us— someone to receive His retribution, and to bear our punishment. That “someone” would be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He would become a substitutionary sacrifice, and personally would pay the price for human salvation. In one of the most moving tributes ever written to the Son of God, Isaiah summarized the situation like this:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all (53:5-6). Jehovah’s intent was to extend grace and mercy freely—through the redemptive life and death of His Son (Romans 3:24ff.). As a member of the Godhead, Christ took upon Himself the form of a man. He came to Earth as a human being (John 1:1-4,14; Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Timothy 3:16), and thus shared our full nature and life-experiences. He even was tempted in all points, just we are, yet He never yielded to that temptation (Hebrews 4:15).
But what has this to do with us? Since Christ was tried (Isaiah 28:16), and yet found perfect (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22), He alone could satisfy heaven’s requirement for justice. He alone could serve as the “propitiation” (atoning sacrifice) for our sins. Just as the lamb without blemish that was used in Old Testament sacrifices could be the (temporary) propitiation for the Israelites’ sins, so the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29) could be the (permanent) propitiation for mankind’s sins. In the gift of Christ, Heaven’s mercy was extended; in the death of the Lamb of God, divine justice was satisfied; and, in the resurrection of Christ, God’s plan was documented and sealed historically forever!
MANKIND’S APPROPRIATION OF GOD’S GIFT OF SALVATION
As wonderful as God’s gift of salvation is, there is one thing it is not. It is not unconditional. Mankind has a part to play in this process. While the gift of salvation itself is free (in the sense that the price levied already has been paid by Christ), God will not force salvation on anyone. Rather, man must—by the exercise of his personal volition and free moral agency—do something to accept the pardon that heaven offers. What is that “something”?
In His manifold dealings with mankind, Jehovah has stressed repeatedly the principle that man, if he would be justified, must live “by faith” (see Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38). Salvation has been available across the centuries, conditioned upon God’s foreknowledge of the atoning death of Christ upon the Cross at Calvary (see Galatians 4:4-5; Hebrews 9:15-17; 10:1ff.). Yet “living by faith” never denoted a mere “mental ascent” of certain facts. Instead, “living by faith” denoted active obedience.
Faith consists of three elements: (1) an acknowledgment of historical facts; (2) a willingness to trust the Lord; and (3) a wholehearted submission (obedience) to the divine will. Further, it should be remembered that faith has not always—for all men, in all circumstances—required the same things. It always has required obedience, but obedience itself has not always demanded the same response.
For example, in God’s earliest dealings with men, obedient faith required that those men offer animal sacrifices at the family altar (Genesis 4:4). Later, God dealt with the nation of Israel, giving them the Law at Mount Sinai (Exodus 20). Under that Law, animal sacrifices continued, along with the observance of certain feast days and festivals. Acceptable faith, under whatever law that was then in force, demanded obedience to the will of God.
The Scriptures are clear that the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26) is based on the Word of God (Romans 10:13), and that both the faith and the obedience are demonstrated by action. Hebrews 11, in fact, devotes itself to an examination of that very concept. “By faith” Abel offered. “By faith” Noah prepared. “By faith” Abraham obeyed. “By faith,” Moses refused. And so on. Even the casual reader cannot help but be impressed with the heroes of faith listed in Hebrews 11:32-40, and the action they took because of their faith. Writing by inspiration, James observed that faith, divorced from obedience, is dead (James 2:26). What, then, is involved in this “obedience of faith” in regard to salvation? What must a person do to be saved?
Several critically important questions need to be asked here. First, where is salvation found? Paul told Timothy: “Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory” (2 Timothy 2:10, emp. added).
Second, where are all spiritual blessings found? Spiritual blessings are found only “in Christ.” Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ” (emp. added).
Third, and most important, how, then, does one get “into Christ”? In other words, how does the alien sinner rid himself of his soul-damning sin? What “obedience of faith” is required to appropriate the free gift of salvation that places him “in Christ”?
THE ROAD HOME: SALVATION THROUGH THE “OBEDIENCE OF FAITH”
The only way to find the “road home” to heaven is to follow God’s directions exactly. There are numerous things God has commanded that a person do in order to enjoin the “obedience of faith” and thereby receive the free gift of salvation. According to God’s Word, in order to be saved a person must do the following.
First, the sinner must hear God’s Word (Romans 10:17). Obviously, one cannot follow God’s commands if he has not heard them, so God commanded that people hear what He has said regarding salvation.
Second, one who is lost cannot be saved if he does not believe what he hears. So, God commanded that belief ensue (John 3:16; Acts 16:31).
Third, one who is lost cannot obtain salvation if he is unwilling to repent of his sins and seek forgiveness (Luke 13:3). Without repentance he will continue in sin; thus, God commanded repentance.
Fourth, since Christ is the basis of our salvation, God commanded the penitent sinner to confess Him before men as the Son of God (Romans 10:9-10).
However, this is not all that God commanded. Hearing, believing, repentance, and confession will not rid one of his sin. The overriding question is: How does one get rid of sin? Numerous times within the pages of the New Testament, that question is asked and answered. The Jews who had murdered Christ, and to whom Peter spoke on the Day of Pentecost when he ushered in the Christian age, asked that question. Peter’s sermon had convicted them. They were convinced that they were sinners, and desperately in need of salvation at the hand of an almighty God. Their question then became: “...brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37). Peter’s response could not have been any clearer. He told them: “repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). Saul, who later would become Paul, the famous apostle to the Gentiles, needed an answer to that same question. While on a trip to Damascus for the explicit purpose of persecuting Christians, Saul was blinded (see Acts 22). Realizing his plight, he asked: “What shall I do, Lord?” (Acts 22:10). When God’s servant, Ananias, appeared to Saul in the city, he answered Saul’s question by commanding: “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins” (Acts 22:16).
What, then, is the correct biblical answer regarding how one rids himself of soul-damning sin? The biblical solution is that the person who has heard the gospel, who has believed its message, who has repented of past sins, and who has confessed Christ as Lord must then—in order to receive remission (forgiveness) of sins—be baptized. [The English word “baptize” is a transliteration of the Greek word baptizo, meaning to immerse, dip, plunge beneath, or submerge (Thayer, 1958, p. 94).]
Further, it is baptism that puts a person “in Christ.” Paul told the first-century Christians in Rome:
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-4). Paul told the Galatians: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ” (3:27, emp. added). Little wonder, then, that Peter spoke of baptism as that which saves (1 Peter 3:21).
Numerous New Testament writers made the point that it is only when we come into contact with Christ’s blood that our sins can be washed away (Ephesians 1:7-8; Revelation 5:9; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:12-14). The question arises: When did Jesus shed His blood? The answer, of course, is that He shed His blood on the Cross at His death (John 19:31-34). Where, and how, does one come into contact with Christ’s blood to obtain the forgiveness of sin that such contact ensures? Paul answered that question when he wrote to the Christians in Rome. It is only in baptism that contact with the blood, and the death, of Christ is made (Romans 6:3-11). Further, the ultimate hope of our resurrection (to live with Him in heaven) is linked to baptism. Paul wrote of “having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12). If we are not baptized, we remain in our sins. If we are not baptized, we have no hope of the resurrection that leads to heaven.
Baptism, of course, is no less, or more, important than any other of God’s commands regarding what to do to be saved. But it is necessary. And one cannot be saved without it. Is baptism a command of God? Yes, it is (Acts 10:48). Is baptism where the remission of sins occurs? Yes, it is (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21).
Some, who no doubt mean well, teach that a person is saved by “faith only.” In other words, people are taught simply to “pray and ask Jesus to come into their hearts,” so that they might be saved from their sins. This teaching, though widespread, is completely at odds with the Bible’s specific instructions regarding what one must do to be saved.
First, the Scriptures teach clearly that God does not hear (i.e., hear to respond with forgiveness) the prayer of an alien sinner (Psalm 34:15-16; Proverbs 15:29; Proverbs 28:9). Thus, the sinner can pray as long and as hard as he wants, but God has stated plainly how a person is to be saved. This makes perfect sense, since in John 14:6 Christ taught: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one cometh to the Father but by me.” The alien sinner cannot approach God on his own, and, as an alien sinner, has no advocate to do so on his behalf. That is one of the spiritual blessings reserved for Christians (Ephesians 1:3). Thus, it is fruitless for an alien sinner to pray to God to “send Jesus into his heart.” God does not hear (i.e., hear to respond to) such a request.
Second, the Scriptures plainly teach that man cannot be saved by faith alone. James, in his epistle, remarked that indeed, a man may be justified (i.e., saved), but “not only by faith” (James 2:24). This, too, makes perfect sense. As James had observed just a few verses earlier: “Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well; the demons also believe, and shudder” (James 2:19). It is not enough merely to believe. Even the demons in hell believe, but they hardly are saved (see 2 Peter 2:4). It is obvious, therefore, that mere faith alone is insufficient to save.
Also, where, exactly, in the Scriptures does it teach that, in order to be saved, one is to “pray to ask Jesus to come into his heart”? Through the years, I have asked many within various religious groups this question, but have yet to find anyone who could provide a single biblical reference to substantiate such a claim. Salvation is not conditioned on prayer; it is conditioned on the “obedience of faith.” Saul, as Christ’s enemy-turned-penitent, prayed earnestly. But the fact remains that his sins were removed (“washed away”) only when he obeyed God’s command, as verbalized by Ananias, to be baptized. Prayer could not wash away Saul’s sins; the Lord’s blood could—at the point of baptism (Hebrews 9:22; Ephesians 5:26).
CONCLUSION
The biblical message—from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22—is that mankind is in a woefully sinful condition, and desperately in need of help in order to find his way “back home.” A corollary to that message is that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11), and genuinely desires that all should be saved (John 3:16). But in order to be saved, one must do exactly what God commanded, in exactly the way God commanded it. When a person hears, believes, repents, confesses, and is baptized for the forgiveness of his sins, that person becomes a Christian—nothing more, and nothing less. God Himself then adds that Christian to His Son’s one true body—the church. The child of God who remains faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10) is promised a crown of life and eternity in heaven as a result of his faith, his obedience, God’s mercy, and God’s grace (John 14:15; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:5). What a joyous thought—to live the “abundant life” (John 10:10b) with a “peace that passeth understanding” (Philippians 4:7) here and now, and then to be rewarded with a home in heaven in the hereafter (John 14:2-3). What a joyous thought indeed!
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"But in order to be saved, one must do exactly what God commanded, in exactly the way God commanded it. When a person hears, believes, repents, confesses, and is baptized for the forgiveness of his sins, that person becomes a Christian—nothing more, and nothing less. God Himself then adds that Christian to His Son’s one true body—the church." So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? And those who live in remote areas , like the Amazon and new Guinea, and have never heard of Jesus (PBUH),is there a "plan" for them too? How many "plans" does God have? I prefer what Jesus (PBUH) told the young man, "Follow the Commandments". Everyone can do this even if he has not heard the actual Commandments. Jesus (PBUH) did not mention, believe in the "son of God" or dying on the cross, or follow the teachings of Paul.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
"But in order to be saved, one must do exactly what God commanded, in exactly the way God commanded it. When a person hears, believes, repents, confesses, and is baptized for the forgiveness of his sins, that person becomes a Christian—nothing more, and nothing less. God Himself then adds that Christian to His Son’s one true body—the church." So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? And those who live in remote areas , like the Amazon and new Guinea, and have never heard of Jesus (PBUH),is there a "plan" for them too? How many "plans" does God have? I prefer what Jesus (PBUH) told the young man, "Follow the Commandments". Everyone can do this even if he has not heard the actual Commandments. Jesus (PBUH) did not mention, believe in the "son of God" or dying on the cross, or follow the teachings of Paul.
In other words then Tman, you're perfect, you have been keeping all the commandments from a baby til now?
Again, I already showed you where in scripture that at the crucifixion when Jesus said: "it is finished" meaning the atonement, there was a massive earth quake according to scripture and the dead came out the graves and went with Jesus and the were seen by many people walking through the streets, those were the righteous from (BC) take note Tman, scripture shows that they went with Jesus and nobody else, only Jesus can reconcile you with the Father. God's plan of salvation is universal, it is the way it is for every single human,also it is a commandment which the most righteous and perfect Tman does not keep.
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By the way, Tman, on one of the other threads you said that you're not rejecting God's plan of salvation, but you are rejecting what I said is God's plan of salvation.
Just to inform you Tman, I didn't write the Bible and the plan that I presented to you is from the Holy Bible which is the word of the living God and I gave you scripture references for authenticity of every thing that I wrote, so therefore my friend you're not rejecting anything that Noel said, you are rejecting what The Lord says.
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Mr Slippery, I answered your question with a yes or no and am asking the same courtesy to answer my questions in your own words and not quotes; So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? And those who live in remote areas , like the Amazon and new Guinea, and have never heard of Jesus (PBUH),is there a "plan" for them too? How many "plans" does God have? I prefer what Jesus (PBUH) told the young man, "Follow the Commandments". Everyone can do this even if he has not heard the actual Commandments. Jesus (PBUH) did not mention, believe in the "son of God" or dying on the cross, or follow the teachings of Paul. You believe what you believe because you think Paul and all those others writings are the "gospel" truth,but we Muslims have a different concept of the Bible and this is it: we believe in ALL the Books, of Moses of David of Jesus (peace be unto all of them) as it was Revelaed, not in the present versions which have been corrupted by mis-translations and mistakes. In another thread I pointed out 101 mistakes in the Bible and there are thousands more. You cannot point out ONE mistake in the Qur'an, and in another thread you took up the false defense of the Pharasees who said Jesus(PBUH) drove out demons by satan, and said Muhammad (PHUH) was deceived by satan. My answer is the same that Jesus (PBUH) gave then: a nation divided against itself cannot stand i.e. the Qur'an preaches against satan so how could he reveal a book that preaches against himself? Don't you see how stupid your answer is?
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My answer is the same that Jesus (PBUH) gave then: a nation divided against itself cannot stand i.e. the Qur'an preaches against satan so how could he reveal a book that preaches against himself?
Answer: Satan gave Muhammad an ounce of truth in an ocean of lies. How can God Contradict himself? The Angel Gabriel told Daniel
So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them?
Answer: that's why you need to put done the demonic book and separate yourself unto God like I did. You're worshipping a religion instead of worshipping the one true, living God, Jesus Christ. I am not a Christian Tman, I am a believer, Christianity is just another mind control religion just like Islam and the others, setup by some blood sucking, money grabbing Bureaucrats who is just after one thing, your money. Do you notice that words christian and christianity is not in the bible? No, you will see the words: Saints and Believers, so get it right, I am not a christian, christianity is a cult just like Islam. I follow Jesus Christ and not religion. "take up your cross and come follow me" Again Tman, Jesus told the rich young ruler to: "sell all that you have and give the money to the poor and come follow me"...not religion.
So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? The people who where living in BC where under the old covenant which was the law, and they needed blood sacrifice for the atonement and a High priest to intercede on thier behalf.
Today we are under a new covernant which is the covernant of grace. We still need blood sacrafice and we still need a High priest to intercede. Jesus Christ is our sacrificial Lamb and he is als our High Priest. Water Baptism is essential, because when you do that you are making a public statement to say: I am crucified with Christ and I rosed with him to new life.
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Had the spirit been Gabriel, he would not have contradicted his former revelations. Six hundred years before Muhammad, Gabriel said to Mary when he appeared to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called Son of God (Luke 1:35). But the spirit who appeared to Muhammad said to him: ...and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (literally those who are infidels) of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they (Surat Al-Tawbah 9:30 MPT). Gabriel said to Mary that Jesus would be called the Son of God. The spirit who gave the revelations to Muhammad said that this is the saying of the infidels, and declares that Allah Himself fights against the Christians who confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Was the spirit really the angel Gabriel? Could Gabriel contradict himself in such an important matter?
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See other thread for New Authorised Version of this passage.
I have answered your question with a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’ as you requested and all I am asking for the same courtesy. Please could you answer these for me without lengthy quotes, which I don’t explain anything, anyway. If not me and you will have to go our separate ways:
1) ON SALVATION So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? And those who live in remote areas , like the Amazon and New Guinea, and have never heard of Jesus (PBUH),is there a "plan" for them too? How many "plans" does God have?
YOUR BIBLE SAYS: "To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
“O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:6-8
Matthew 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(PS: no son of God, no die on the cross)
ISLAM TEACHES: "Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful." The noble Qur'an, Al-Zumar(39):53
2) NATURE OF JESUS (PBUH) Christians who claim to be reading form the same Book can’t even agree among themselves about the nature of Jesus (PBUH). Which one of the sects do you belong to? The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man and God. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man only. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man some of the time and God some of the time.
ISLAM TEACHES: Qur’an 22. 19: These two antagonists (Christian sects) dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. 5. 14: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. 5. 72 : They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
3) THREE DAYS Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. It’s not maths, its what your Book says and what you base your faith upon; Jesus (PBUH) would die on the cross and raise up in three days. But Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain.
4) PAUL LIED Acts 9:19-29
"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me."
Acts 26:19-21
Contradicted by:
"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."
Some of the contradictions are:
1) Galatians claims that after his alleged vision, Paul "Immediately" spoke to "no flesh and blood" but rather traveled to Arabia and then to Damascus. So he did not "straightway," if at all, preach boldly in Damascus as claimed by Acts (How long would it take to travel from Damascus to Arabia to Damascus? Could he go and come back "straightway"?).
2) According to Galatians, Paul did not go to Jerusalem where the apostles were. Rather, he went to Arabia then to Damascus. Now, after at least THREE YEARS (not many days), he goes to Jerusalem. It explicitly states that "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles." So this is claimed to be his FIRST visit to Jerusalem after his claimed vision. This FIRST visit is claimed to have occurred at least THREE YEARS after Paul's alleged vision. However, Acts claims that MANY DAYS after his vision he traveled to Jerusalem and performed a bold preaching campaign with all the apostles. Acts also mentions no intermediate journey to Arabia.
3) According to Galatians, upon Paul's arrival in Jerusalem he met Peter and James and no other apostles. He can not have met any apostles in Jerusalem before this because he claims that immediately after his vision "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles" Rather, it claims that he FIRST went to Jerusalem at least "three years" after his claimed vision. On the other hand, Acts claims that the first time he met the apostles was many days after his claimed vision at which time he met ALL of the apostles. This too is obviously his first meeting with them since they all feared him. Notice the words "they were ALL afraid of him." This would not be the case if Peter and James had already met him since even if they had never mentioned him to the other apostles, still, at the very least they themselves (Peter and James) would not fear him. Also notice that it was only Barnabas who stood up for him and not Barnabas, Peter, and James.
4) Galatians claims that after Paul's first visit to Jerusalem all the apostles feared him but then Barnabas convinced them to accept him and they ALL went hand in hand "in and out of Jerusalem" preaching "boldly" to the Jews. However, Acts claims that his first visit to Jerusalem was after THREE YEARS and upon this FIRST visit he met ONLY Peter and James. He is not claimed to have gone with Peter and James on a preaching campaign in and out of Jerusalem, nor could he have done so in the past with ALL of the apostles since if he had done so he would not have been "unknown by face to the churches of Judea," they would also not have "heard only" of his conversion but would have eye-witnessed his bold campaign with all of the apostles with their own eyes.
If the author of the majority of the books of the New Testament can not even keep the narration of his own "salvation" straight then how are we expected to believe him in such critical matters as the "true" meanings of Jesus' words, or other matters?
The fact that Paul never actually met Jesus during his lifetime, never traveled with him, ate with him, or learned directly from him would obviously make the apostles of Jesus the first source of guidance for those followers of Jesus who wished to know what Jesus taught. Jesus' apostles also did not have a previous history of persecuting his followers. The only reason why anyone might want to bypass the apostles to speak to Paul is if Paul began to receive a series of holy visions from Jesus. The apostles did not claim to be receiving visions from Jesus, so obviously, Paul's claims that he was receiving divine visions from Jesus would go a long way towards drawing the followers of Jesus away from them and to his interpretation of the message of Jesus. Paul himself proudly proclaims that he has no need of learning from any human being, not even the apostles, he is completely independent of their knowledge and all he needs is his visions. Paulinity.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
See other thread for New Authorised Version of this passage.
I have answered your question with a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’ as you requested and all I am asking for the same courtesy. Please could you answer these for me without lengthy quotes, which I don’t explain anything, anyway. If not me and you will have to go our separate ways:
1) ON SALVATION So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? And those who live in remote areas , like the Amazon and New Guinea, and have never heard of Jesus (PBUH),is there a "plan" for them too? How many "plans" does God have?
Answer: No, The pattern of salvation in the Old Testament is exactly the same as the pattern of New Testament salvation.
YOUR BIBLE SAYS: "To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Proverbs 21:3
Yes, but remember the key to understand what you're reading is: context, context, context.
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
Yes, its's all about context, context, context.
“O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:6-8 yes: context, context, context.
Matthew 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Yes, context, context, context. They were still under the law, so it was necessary to keep the commandments.
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
yes: that was Jesus in his humanity speaking and directing our attention unto God and not man. To God be the glory.
(PS: no son of God, no die on the cross) And no Angel Gabriel no bring down no quran, it was Satan himself, you are decieved Tman
ISLAM TEACHES: "Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful." The noble Qur'an, Al-Zumar(39):53
Islam is a cult just like christianity and all religions. I don't follow religion I follow Jesus Christ.
2) NATURE OF JESUS (PBUH) Christians who claim to be reading form the same Book can’t even agree among themselves about the nature of Jesus (PBUH). Which one of the sects do you belong to?
I don't belong to any sect, I belong to Jesus Christ however I believe that Jesus is fully God and Fully man.
The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man and God. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man only. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man some of the time and God some of the time.
ISLAM TEACHES: Qur’an 22. 19: These two antagonists (Christian sects) dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. 5. 14: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. 5. 72 : They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
Again, mi bun all religion they're all cult, none seek after God.
3) THREE DAYS Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. It’s not maths, its what your Book says and what you base your faith upon; Jesus (PBUH) would die on the cross and raise up in three days. But Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain.
You missed it Tman, what's important is not:1,2,3 or 4 days. What's important is that he is risen like he said he would.
4) PAUL LIED Acts 9:19-29
"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me."
Acts 26:19-21
Contradicted by:
"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."
Some of the contradictions are:
1) Galatians claims that after his alleged vision, Paul "Immediately" spoke to "no flesh and blood" but rather traveled to Arabia and then to Damascus. So he did not "straightway," if at all, preach boldly in Damascus as claimed by Acts (How long would it take to travel from Damascus to Arabia to Damascus? Could he go and come back "straightway"?).
2) According to Galatians, Paul did not go to Jerusalem where the apostles were. Rather, he went to Arabia then to Damascus. Now, after at least THREE YEARS (not many days), he goes to Jerusalem. It explicitly states that "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles." So this is claimed to be his FIRST visit to Jerusalem after his claimed vision. This FIRST visit is claimed to have occurred at least THREE YEARS after Paul's alleged vision. However, Acts claims that MANY DAYS after his vision he traveled to Jerusalem and performed a bold preaching campaign with all the apostles. Acts also mentions no intermediate journey to Arabia.
3) According to Galatians, upon Paul's arrival in Jerusalem he met Peter and James and no other apostles. He can not have met any apostles in Jerusalem before this because he claims that immediately after his vision "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles" Rather, it claims that he FIRST went to Jerusalem at least "three years" after his claimed vision. On the other hand, Acts claims that the first time he met the apostles was many days after his claimed vision at which time he met ALL of the apostles. This too is obviously his first meeting with them since they all feared him. Notice the words "they were ALL afraid of him." This would not be the case if Peter and James had already met him since even if they had never mentioned him to the other apostles, still, at the very least they themselves (Peter and James) would not fear him. Also notice that it was only Barnabas who stood up for him and not Barnabas, Peter, and James.
4) Galatians claims that after Paul's first visit to Jerusalem all the apostles feared him but then Barnabas convinced them to accept him and they ALL went hand in hand "in and out of Jerusalem" preaching "boldly" to the Jews. However, Acts claims that his first visit to Jerusalem was after THREE YEARS and upon this FIRST visit he met ONLY Peter and James. He is not claimed to have gone with Peter and James on a preaching campaign in and out of Jerusalem, nor could he have done so in the past with ALL of the apostles since if he had done so he would not have been "unknown by face to the churches of Judea," they would also not have "heard only" of his conversion but would have eye-witnessed his bold campaign with all of the apostles with their own eyes.
If the author of the majority of the books of the New Testament can not even keep the narration of his own "salvation" straight then how are we expected to believe him in such critical matters as the "true" meanings of Jesus' words, or other matters?
The fact that Paul never actually met Jesus during his lifetime, never traveled with him, ate with him, or learned directly from him would obviously make the apostles of Jesus the first source of guidance for those followers of Jesus who wished to know what Jesus taught. Jesus' apostles also did not have a previous history of persecuting his followers. The only reason why anyone might want to bypass the apostles to speak to Paul is if Paul began to receive a series of holy visions from Jesus. The apostles did not claim to be receiving visions from Jesus, so obviously, Paul's claims that he was receiving divine visions from Jesus would go a long way towards drawing the followers of Jesus away from them and to his interpretation of the message of Jesus. Paul himself proudly proclaims that he has no need of learning from any human being, not even the apostles, he is completely independent of their knowledge and all he needs is his visions. Paulinity.
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Lets hope you come better this time. Really a feebly effort. You took a penalty and it went for a throw in.
1) ON SALVATION Tman: So what about the people who lived BC and are not baptised? Is there a different "plan" for them? And those who live in remote areas , like the Amazon and New Guinea, and have never heard of Jesus (PBUH),is there a "plan" for them too? How many "plans" does God have?
Noel Answer: No, The pattern of salvation in the Old Testament is exactly the same as the pattern of New Testament salvation. Tman rebuttal: How can it be the same? These people I mention don’t know anything about Jesus and dying on the cross, which according to you is God’s plan for salvation. ISLAM TEACHES: Follow the Commandments and ask GOD for forgiveness when you sin.
Tman: YOUR BIBLE SAYS: "To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Proverbs 21:3
Noel answer: Yes, but remember the key to understand what you're reading is: context, context, context. "For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6 Yes, its's all about context, context, context.
“O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:6-8 yes: context, context, context. Matthew 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Yes, context, context, context. They were still under the law, so it was necessary to keep the commandments. Tman rebuttal: But Jesus (PBUH) said he did not come to change one dot or iota of the law but to follow it, which he did up to praying in the temple. He was a devout Jew all his life. It was Paul, the Roman Gentile, who changed up everything after getting a “vision”. Shouting “context” is not good enough as God does not change from the Old testament to the New.
Tman: 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Noel answer: Yes: that was Jesus in his humanity speaking and directing our attention unto God and not man. To God be the glory. Tman rebuttal: Jesus (PBUH) always direct us to God as having all the power and not himself, and even called himself the son of man.
Tman: (PS: no son of God, no die on the cross)
Noel answer: And no Angel Gabriel no bring down no quran, it was Satan himself, you are decieved Tman Tman rebuttal: We don’t need the Angel Gabriel or the Qur’an to follow the Commandments or to ask God for forgiveness. The people before the Qur’an and some Jews and Christians will be saved even though they don’t believe in the Qur’an.
Tman: ISLAM TEACHES: "Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful." The noble Qur'an, Al-Zumar(39):53
Noel answer: Islam is a cult just like christianity and all religions. I don't follow religion I follow Jesus Christ. Tman rebuttal: You have to explain that a little better because I thought the followers of Jesus Christ are called “Christians”, or is this a new order. We should call it “Noelanity”.
Tman: 2) NATURE OF JESUS (PBUH) Christians who claim to be reading form the same Book can’t even agree among themselves about the nature of Jesus (PBUH). Which one of the sects do you belong to? The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man and God. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man only. The one that says Jesus (PBUH) is man some of the time and God some of the time. Noel answer: I don't belong to any sect, I belong to Jesus Christ however I believe that Jesus is fully God and Fully man. Tman rebuttal: That is just another “branch” of Christianity no matter how much you deny it. Will look up the dictionary definition for you.
Tman: ISLAM TEACHES: Qur’an 22. 19: These two antagonists (Christian sects) dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. 5. 14: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. 5. 72 : They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
Noel answer: Again, mi bun all religion they're all cult, none seek after God. Tman rebuttal: So you alone have all the answers and all the good Christians, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists etc are going to burn in hell?
Tman: 3) THREE DAYS Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. It’s not maths, its what your Book says and what you base your faith upon; Jesus (PBUH) would die on the cross and raise up in three days. But Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is not three days. Please explain.
Noel answer: You missed it Tman, what's important is not:1,2,3 or 4 days. What's important is that he is risen like he said he would. Tman rebuttal: So what is written in the Bible is not important when it comes to numbers? Or you pick and choose which ones to believe? So we can say: God created the earth in 5 days, Moses (PBUH) was in the mountain 39 days, Jesus (PBUH) was in the desert 38 days, according to you. Jesus (PBUH) said when they asked him for a sign that no sign shall be given except the sign of Jonah. And if we discount the three days, as you want to, the miracle was that he came out of the fish ALIVE, not resurrected as you claim for Jesus (PBUH). Jonah came out as a MAN, not a spirit, just like Jesus (PBUH) who ate fish and honey with the disciples to show them he was a MAN (ALIVE) not a spirit. (See original post crucifixion or cruci-fiction)
Tman: 4) PAUL LIED Acts 9:19-29 "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me." Acts 26:19-21 Contradicted by: Galatians: 15 "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."
Some of the contradictions are: 1) Galatians claims that after his alleged vision, Paul "Immediately" spoke to "no flesh and blood" but rather traveled to Arabia and then to Damascus. So he did not "straightway," if at all, preach boldly in Damascus as claimed by Acts (How long would it take to travel from Damascus to Arabia to Damascus? Could he go and come back "straightway"?). 2) According to Galatians, Paul did not go to Jerusalem where the apostles were. Rather, he went to Arabia then to Damascus. Now, after at least THREE YEARS (not many days), he goes to Jerusalem. It explicitly states that "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles." So this is claimed to be his FIRST visit to Jerusalem after his claimed vision. This FIRST visit is claimed to have occurred at least THREE YEARS after Paul's alleged vision. However, Acts claims that MANY DAYS after his vision he traveled to Jerusalem and performed a bold preaching campaign with all the apostles. Acts also mentions no intermediate journey to Arabia. 3) According to Galatians, upon Paul's arrival in Jerusalem he met Peter and James and no other apostles. He can not have met any apostles in Jerusalem before this because he claims that immediately after his vision "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles" Rather, it claims that he FIRST went to Jerusalem at least "three years" after his claimed vision. On the other hand, Acts claims that the first time he met the apostles was many days after his claimed vision at which time he met ALL of the apostles. This too is obviously his first meeting with them since they all feared him. Notice the words "they were ALL afraid of him." This would not be the case if Peter and James had already met him since even if they had never mentioned him to the other apostles, still, at the very least they themselves (Peter and James) would not fear him. Also notice that it was only Barnabas who stood up for him and not Barnabas, Peter, and James. 4) Galatians claims that after Paul's first visit to Jerusalem all the apostles feared him but then Barnabas convinced them to accept him and they ALL went hand in hand "in and out of Jerusalem" preaching "boldly" to the Jews. However, Acts claims that his first visit to Jerusalem was after THREE YEARS and upon this FIRST visit he met ONLY Peter and James. He is not claimed to have gone with Peter and James on a preaching campaign in and out of Jerusalem, nor could he have done so in the past with ALL of the apostles since if he had done so he would not have been "unknown by face to the churches of Judea," they would also not have "heard only" of his conversion but would have eye-witnessed his bold campaign with all of the apostles with their own eyes. If the author of the majority of the books of the New Testament can not even keep the narration of his own "salvation" straight then how are we expected to believe him in such critical matters as the "true" meanings of Jesus' words, or other matters? The fact that Paul never actually met Jesus during his lifetime, never traveled with him, ate with him, or learned directly from him would obviously make the apostles of Jesus the first source of guidance for those followers of Jesus who wished to know what Jesus taught. Jesus' apostles also did not have a previous history of persecuting his followers. The only reason why anyone might want to bypass the apostles to speak to Paul is if Paul began to receive a series of holy visions from Jesus. The apostles did not claim to be receiving visions from Jesus, so obviously, Paul's claims that he was receiving divine visions from Jesus would go a long way towards drawing the followers of Jesus away from them and to his interpretation of the message of Jesus. Paul himself proudly proclaims that he has no need of learning from any human being, not even the apostles, he is completely independent of their knowledge and all he needs is his visions. Paulinity.
Noel answer: All taken out of context. Tman rebuttal: Don’t hide behind “context” again, Mr Slippery. Either Paul wrote contradictory accounts (lies) or he did not. It has nothing to do with “context”. You need to explain which of the two accounts Paul wrote was the truth, both cant be.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
. Tman rebuttal: Don’t hide behind “context” again, Mr Slippery. Either Paul wrote contradictory accounts (lies) or he did not. It has nothing to do with “context”. You need to explain which of the two accounts Paul wrote was the truth, both cant be.
What a precious treasure we have in our salvation, in Yahshua, and in the Bible. Sadly, though, there are those who are out to steal all three treasures from us. I personally know of several brethren in my circle of acquaintances who have renounced Yahshua as their Savior. They failed to guard their treasure and their hearts. Those treasures were stolen from them. The theft occurred slowly over time and it all began with doubting the Apostle Paul.
The Ebionite teaching that the Apostle Paul is a false apostle is being revived. If it hasn't touched you yet, it will. This study is actually a refutation to an article entitled, "Paul, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly", as well as other accusations not found in that article. Hopefully, this refutation will prepare you to discern the truth of the matter.
The foundation of the belief that Paul is a false Apostle lies in the inability to harmonize Paul with the rest of the Bible. Rather than waiting on Yahweh to provide understanding concerning Paul's writings, the anti-Paulists prefer to simply dismiss his writings as those of a false teacher. Peter warned us that this would happen.
2 Peter 3:15,16 reads, "And account that the longsuffering of our Master is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
Conveniently, however, anti-Paulists would say that the second epistle of Peter was not written by the Apostle Peter and therefore should not be part of our current New Testament canon. This reveals the extent that they will go. They would discard the entire epistle in order to get rid of two verses in support of Paul. The fact is that no one knows for sure that Peter did not write this second epistle. At this point in time it is simply a theory. I offer two sources which defend Peter as the author of the second epistle; 1 , 2.
Historical Arguments
Anti-Paulists have no choice but to discard "The Acts of the Apostles" as well because it, too, contains pro-Paul statements. Luke, for example, calls Paul an "apostle" twice in one chapter (Acts 14:4, 14). The anti-Paulist says of those two verses;
"By this time in the record, Luke would have been very familiar with Paul calling himself an apostle and was no doubt in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record as recognizing his apostleship!"
Luke is also the only one in the Bible who goes on record to describe the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks). Should we doubt that account because only Luke records it? Of course not.
According to Yahshua's words to Ananaias, Paul was specifically chosen by Yahshua to bear his name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel (Acts 9:15). In other words, he was sent by Yahshua which is what the word "apostle" means. We see Paul's actual separation as a sent one (apostle) in Acts 13:1-4 where the Holy Spirit spoke to the prophets and teachers in the Antioch congregation.
"Now there were in the assembly that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Master, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Spirit, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus."
It was actually the Holy Spirit that separated Barnabas and Paul for the work. Was the Holy Spirit incorrect in doing that?
Anti-Paulists will attempt to discredit Luke and Paul by showing how the three accounts of Paul's conversion differ from one another. Acts 9:7 says the men traveling with Paul "heard a voice". Acts 22:9 says of those same men, "they heard not the voice of him that spoke to me".
I offer three possible reasons for this difference;
1) One voice spoke to Paul while a different voice spoke to the rest saying something like, "Fear not"
2) They heard the same voice, but could not hear the actual words that were spoken
3) They heard all the words, but did not understand. The Greek word for "hear" can have the meaning of "understand" as in Jn. 8:43,47. The NIV uses the word "understand" in Acts 22:9, basing it upon the Greek text which reads differently.
9:7 - akouontes men tes phones
22:9 - ten de phonen ouk ekousan tou lalountos moi
Here are the notes from Dr. James R. White (a Greek scholar) in his book entitled, "Scripture Alone", pg.160:
"First, in 9:7 akouo, the verb that means "to hear," is a nominative plural participle; in 22:9 it is a plural aorist verb.
Second, in 9:7 phone, a "sound" or "voice," is a singular genetive noun; in 22:9 it is a singular accusative noun.
Third, in 9:7 akouo precedes its object; in 22:9 it follows its object. Fourth, in 9:7 the phrase is not modified; in 22:9 it is modified by "of the one speaking to me."
Finally, in 9:7 Luke is narrating an event in Greek; in 22:9 Paul is speaking to a crowd in Hebrew or Aramaic . . ."
The context of Acts 22:9 suggests that the reason the men did not hear the voice is because the voice was speaking to Paul in Hebrew, which they did not understand. Remember, Paul said they did not hear the voice and then says, "of the one speaking to me."
That either Paul or Luke was lying is not a valid choice.
Acts 29:9-18 is the third conversion account wherein Paul goes into greater detail as to what Yahshua said to him. These differences in Paul's conversion account lead anti-Paulists to doubt his apostleship.
I don't know about you, but when I give my testimony to people, it never comes out the same. I share more info with certain people than with others based on who I'm talking to and how much time I have to give my testimony. To accuse Paul of lying to King Agrippa when giving his testimony for the third time is outrageous to say the least.
Anti-Paulists accuse Paul of lying in Acts 23:6. It reads as follows:
"But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."
They contend that he was not called in question over the resurrection, but simply lied in order to save himself. Let's look back and see what the original cause was. In Acts 21:28, Paul was falsely accused of bringing Greeks into the temple. I say "falsely" because his accusers only "supposed" that Paul brought Trophimus into the temple (Acts 21:29).
As Paul was being led away, he asked to speak to the people. He then began to recount his conversion in which he told them the resurrected Savior spoke to him. This speech took place in Jerusalem where everyone was well aware of the events that took place in putting Yahshua to death. By saying Yahshua spoke to him after his death, Paul was confirming his resurrection, through which all believers have hope in a future resurrection. Is that not what Paul said in Acts 23:6: "of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question"? Eventually, the mob cried out, "Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live" (Acts 22:22).
Paul is then taken before the Sanhedrin where he makes an honest mistake in rebuking the high priest out of ignorance of his identity (Acts 23:2-5). Anti-Paulists accuse Paul of lying here as well. They say he had to know it was the high priest because he knew he was his judge and he knew the difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Paul, however, had been absent from Jersualem for quite a while, during which a change in the high priest may have been made. High priests at that time were set up at the whim of the Roman government for political reasons. Additionally, any number of other circumstances may have led to Paul's ignorance in this matter.
What saddens me is that the anti-Paulists do not give Paul the benefit of the doubt in anything. They are so quick to condemn Paul in every little point they can dig up.
Paul's ensuing comments in verse 6 were perfectly true, for that is the real reason why any believer is persecuted. That is why they falsely accused Stephen in Acts 6:11-12 as well as Paul in Acts 21:28.
The Sanhedrin were well aware of that because they were guilty of such persecution for that very reason. Acts 22:4-5 read as follows:
"And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished."
Paul was commissioned by the high priest and the council of elders to imprison as many of Yahshua's followers as he could find. See also Acts 9:1-2.
Anti-Paulists continue their attack on Paul by showing how he fulfills Mt.10:16-18. It reads,
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles."
The accounts of Saul's persecution of believers certainly seem to fulfill those verses, but does Paul's actions prior to his conversion really matter? What about the prediction Yahshua made in Mt.26:34?
"Yahshua said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."
Should we also consider Peter a false apostle based on his actions prior to conversion? What about each of us? Were we not forgiven of much at our conversion? So, too, should Saul of Tarsus be forgiven.
Paul is also accused of lying to the Galatians. To understand this false accusation, we need to first read Acts 15:19-29;
"Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to [Elohim]; but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole assembly, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting: Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment; it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Master Yahshua Messiah."
Please note that James calls Paul and Barnabas "beloved". Do the anti-Paulists seek to throw James out of the NT canon as well?
"We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also shall tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if you keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare you well."
Here is what the anti-Paulists then say;
"There are actually several things going on here but first I want to focus on the instructions of the council. They instruct Paul to write to the churches that they avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols and from meat with blood, and from fornication (or idolatry). This is very clear. So what did Paul write to the churches about his instructions from Jerusalem?"
Galatians 2:7-10 (NASB95)
7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They only asked us to remember the poor the very thing I also was eager to do.
WHOA! What just happened? Paul admits to being in Jerusalem. He admits to having met the apostles. He brags that they accepted him as a brother and then concludes that all they asked us to do was remember the poor which I will gladly do. Where did this come from? Did the council ask Paul to tell the churches to remember the poor? NO! The council told Paul to write to the churches to avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols and from fornication (idolatry). Did Paul flat out lie here? Again, we will note that Paul not only refused to pass along the warning from Jerusalem but he actually taught the OPPOSITE to the churches (that is that it is ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols)."
There are actually several accusations here. I'll address the last one first. They said, " Again, we will note that Paul not only refused to pass along the warning from Jerusalem . . ." Is that true? One need only continue reading Acts 15:30-31;
"So they, when they were dismissed, came down to Antioch; and having gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle. And when they had read it, they rejoiced for the consolation."
Acts 16:4-5 read as follows:
"And as they went on their way through the cities, they delivered them the decrees to keep which had been ordained of the apostles and elders that were at Jerusalem. So the assemblies were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily."
So was Paul actually lying? No. It's the anti-Paulist's who have grossly erred in assuming and falsely accusing Paul.
The other false accusation of Paul lying concerns the reference to Gal.2:7-10. Paul said, " They only asked us to remember the poor the very thing I also was eager to do" (vs.10). The anti-Paulist responds with,
"WHOA! What just happened? Paul admits to being in Jerusalem. He admits to having met the apostles. He brags that they accepted him as a brother and then concludes that all they asked us to do was remember the poor which I will gladly do. Where did this come from? Did the council ask Paul to tell the churches to remember the poor? NO! The council told Paul to write to the churches to avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols and from fornication (idolatry). Did Paul flat out lie here?"
The answer to the last question is no, he did not lie. Paul was writing a letter to the Galatian assembly. The council never said their decrees were for all Gentile congregations, but only for the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia (Acts 15:23). Paul had no reason to give those decrees to the Galatians because the council never told him to. I mention more about this later.
Anti-Paulists also use Gal.2:6 to show Paul's supposed lack of respect of the other twelve apostles and how they have no authority over Paul. Gal.2:6 reads thusly:
"But from those who were reputed to be somewhat (whatsoever they were, it makes no matter to me: [Elohim] accepts not man's person)--they, I say, who were of repute imparted nothing to me:"
One anti-Paulist then says,
"Here Paul goes full board in his lack of respect for the twelve. Paul says of the twelve that they seem to be important but that it makes no difference to me. In other words the twelve apostles aren't important to Paul despite their apparent positions of authority. He then brags again that they ADDED NOTHING to his message. Paul wants to really drive the point home that the apostles mean little to him and wants his audience to know that he does not take direction from them nor has he been taught anything by them."
These remarks are based on divorcing verse 6 from the context which includes verses 3-5.
"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Messiah Yahshua, that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we gave place in the way of subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you."
Paul was not attacking the other twelve apostles. He was referring to false brethren that snuck in to teach their doctrine of salvation by works.
To further compound their error, the anti-Paulists fail to cross reference properly. They say,
"There is one other point often overlooked in the decision of the Jerusalem council and that is that the apostles apparently didn't have full trust in Paul and thought it necessary to send someone along with him as a witness to what he was teaching. In the letter which the council drafts they say:
Acts 15:24-27 (NASB95)
24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
The council's letter acknowledges that Paul has received no instruction from them but has been preaching on his own. Remember, Paul himself bragged about that. The council also acknowledges that what Paul is teaching has been disturbing those who hear him."
The anti-Paulist applies verse 24 to Paul when, in reality, it is a reference to Acts 15:1, 2, 5, 6 which read as follows:
"And certain men came down from Judaea and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved. And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question." . . . "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter."
Verse 24 is referring to the legalistic Pharisees which believed in justification by works, and were teaching the same. They were of the "number" of Jews in Judea where the Apostles were from. They went to Antioch to preach their false doctrine without the Apostles instruction to do so. The council sent their "beloved" Barnabas and Paul to correct the problem.
Anti-Paulists teach that all the believers in Asia turned away from Paul and tried to kill him. They write;
"Now to the meat of the matter! First I will prove from the accepted canon and from Paul's words himself that he was rejected in all the churches of Asia."
Acts 19:8-10 (NASB95)
8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
Before we saw that Paul reasoned with the Jews in the synagogues but now we hear a little more of the story. Paul continued to preach in Ephesus but he wasn't well received for long for Luke records that some there began to speak evil of the Way before the people and that they had to withdraw from them. Putting aside the good and bad for a moment the facts are that Paul preached in Ephesus but eventually had to leave as they turned against him."
Who turned against Paul in the above passage, believers or hardened and disobedient, unbelieving Jews in the synagogue? Who was Paul reasoning with and persuading about the Kingdom of Elohim? Believers were already persuaded and embraced the Kingdom through Yahshua. It was the unbelieving Jews who needed persuading and who turned against Paul.
The anti-Paulist continues;
"2 Corinthians 1:8-10 (NASB95)
8 For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life; 9 indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; 10 who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us,
Paul admits that while in Asia that things got so bad they had the sentence of death put on them. In other words, the believers in Asia were going to kill Paul and his companions!"
These verses refer to the wrath of the Ephesians after Paul said their goddess Diana was no mighty one at all. Let's pick up the account in Acts 19:28-32.
"And when they heard this they were filled with wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesus. And the city was filled with the confusion: and they rushed with one accord into the theatre, having seized Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel. And when Paul was minded to enter in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not. And certain also of the Asiarchs, being his friends, sent unto him and besought him not to adventure himself into the theatre. Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was in confusion; and the more part knew not why they were come together."
This mob wasn't thinking. They were wild with resentment and wrath. If the town clerk hadn't calmed them down in verses 35-41, they may have rashly put Paul and his companions to death.
The thing that is so unbelievable to me is that the anti-Paulists read 2 Cor.1:8-10 to mean "believers" wanted to kill Paul and his companions. Would any believer go against our Savior's command to love our enemies (Mt.5:44-48) by killing them? Can you picture any believer in Acts killing anybody? Believers are sheep to be slaughtered, not slaughterers of the sheep.
The anti-Paulist also appeals to 2 Tim.1:15. They say,
"2 Timothy 1:15 (NASB95)
15 You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.
Now Paul tells us that ALL of those in Asia turned away from him. Paul had to flee Ephesus for some reason and all the believers in Asia wanted him killed."
We are not told why they turned from Paul. I suspect it was a result of what took place at Ephesus. The weaker believers feared for their lives and fled from Paul because he was the lightning rod of that entire wrath. Does that sound familiar? Did not all of Messiah's disciples turn from him out of fear for their lives? Does that make Yahshua a false Messiah? Neither does it make Paul a false apostle.
The last attack on Paul from an historical perspective that I will address comes from the anti-Paulist's pitiful interpretation of Rev.2:1-3. It reads as follows:
"To the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write: These things saith he that holds the seven stars in his right hand, he that walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks: I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou can not bear evil men, and did try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and did find them false; and thou hast patience and did bear for my name's sake, and hast not grown weary. "
The anti-Paulist then says;
Paul is the only one we know of in the accepted canon that went to Asia and specifically preached in Ephesus. Paul writes to the church in Ephesus saying that he is an apostle. . . This same body of believers in Ephesus are now congratulated for testing someone who claimed to be an apostles and were not. Could this be talking about Paul and Barnabas? Were they tested for three months and ultimately rejected as false apostles and ran out of town at threat of death? Did the church of Ephesus eventually conclude that Paul was a liar and was NOT an apostle?
Did you absorb that? Did the Ephesians run Paul and Barnabas out of town as false apostles? Let's read Acts 20:17-22.
"And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the assembly. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time, serving the Master with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward [Elohim], and faith toward our Master Yahshua Messiah. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:"
Paul is about to depart for Jerusalem, but he desires one last meeting with the Elders of the Ephesian congregation. Let's resume in Acts 20:29-38.
"I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Wherefore watch ye, remembering that by the space of three years I ceased not to admonish every one night and day with tears. And now I commend you to [Elohim], and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you the inheritance among all them that are sanctified. I coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring you ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Master Yahshua, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck and kissed him, sorrowing most of all for the word which he had spoken, that they should behold his face no more. And they brought him on his way unto the ship."
Does that sound like they found him to be a false apostle or does it sound like they loved him dearly and couldn't bear not seeing him anymore? He left them on very good terms. However, in that meeting he prophesied that grievous wolves would come to Ephesus and not spare the flock. Others would draw away disciples to themselves. The "apostles" Yahshua referred to were most likely these men who were grievous wolves.
Doctrinal Arguments
The anti-Paulists not only attack Paul historically, but doctrinally as well. Let's explore some of the "heresies" that the Apostle Paul supposedly taught.
No One Righteous
In Romans 3:10-12, Paul refers to Psa.14 to prove all have sinned and no one is righteous. Anti-Paulists say Paul misquoted Psa.14. Paul wrote, "There is none righteous, no not one." Psa.14:3 reads, "there is none that doeth good, no not one." There are a few other differences as well. The truth is, Paul was not quoting, but paraphrasing. Even if he was quoting, there are other examples of people not quoting exactly. For example:
Psalm 53 is almost identical to Psalm 14 with the exception of Psa.53:5 and "Elohim" in Psa.53 where Psa.14 has "YHWH". Is David misquoting his own Psalm because it is not an exact quote? Does that make David a false prophet?
In Mt.4:4, Yahshua said:
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." KJV
Yahshua was quoting Deut.8:3 which reads:
"And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man does not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Yahweh does man live."
As you can see, Yahshua did not quote this verse perfectly. He left out some words in the beginning and some at the end. Does that make him a false Messiah? Or should we blame Matthew for misquoting Yahshua and throw his book out along with Paul's writings? I'm being sarcastic, of course. The truth is that the meaning and understanding of the Psalm is being carried over by Paul.
Keep in mind that believers in ancient times did not get to carry around the Scriptures wherever they went as we do. They did not have computers to instantly write out a verse stored in its memory. They had to rely on their own memories.
I can guarantee that every anti-Paulist, at one time or another, has misquoted a verse. I wonder if they would consider themselves false brethren because of such a mistake.
Because anti-Paulist's believe Paul falsely used the word "righteous", they will also accuse Paul of teaching falsely because Scripture says Noah, Abraham, David and others were "righteous". Not only does Psa.14:3 read, "they are ALL gone aside, they are ALL together become filthy, but Eccl.7:20 reads,
"Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth, that does good, and sins not."
There were no righteous men on earth based on sinlessness. Was Solomon wrong? Solomon said again, in 1 Kgs 8:46:
"...(for there is no man that sins not,) ..."
The fact is, all the patriarchs sinned as well and therefore were not perfectly righteous in the sense that Yahweh is. They were righteous, not because they never sinned (never transgressed any of Yahweh's commandments), but because they lived by faith, and that faith was imputed to them for righteousness (Gen.15:6).
So why did Paul use "righteous" in Rom.3:10? Because Paul understood as did David and Solomon, that it only takes one sin (one unrighteous act) to become unjust and unrighteous. Since Paul was paraphrasing and not quoting verbatim, he understands "none that does good" to mean "every man has committed an act or acts of unrighteousness." If none do good, none are perfectly righteous. The two words are synonymous in Pr.14:19:
"The evil bow before the good; and the wicked at the gates of the righteous."
Yahshua was sinless. Therefore, he is the only absolutely righteous man that ever lived. His righteousness is imparted to us through faith paving the way for our justification apart from the law.
Justifying the Wicked
In Ex.23:7, Yahweh says, "for I will not justify the wicked." Anti-Paulists accuse Paul of teaching the exact opposite in Rom.4:5 which reads as follows:
"But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the wicked, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."
If we read Ex.23:7 in context, including verses 1-6, we will notice that Yahweh precedes His statement in verse 7 with a list of at least ten commands. His meaning in verse 7, therefore, is that He will not justify the wicked in their wickedness. Paul teaches the same thing and intended the same meaning in Rom.4:5.
In Acts 17:30, Paul says the following:
"The times of ignorance therefore [Elohim] overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent:"
Paul calls for the wicked to repent (turn away from their sin). In Rom.4:5, Paul is teaching that Yahweh will justify the wicked after they repent, believe and have faith. This is why Paul quotes from Psalm 32 in Romans 4:7 and says, "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered." This is exactly what Yahweh taught in Hab.2:4, "the just shall live by faith."
Call No Man Your Father
Paul wrote, in 1 Cor.4:15;
"For though you have ten thousand tutors in Messiah, yet have you not many fathers; for in Messiah Yahshua I begat you through the gospel."
Anti-Paulists accuse Paul of not obeying Yahshua's command in Mt.23:9 to call no man "father".
However, Yahshua himself and every New Testament writer except Jude used the word "father" in reference to men. James calls Abraham "our father" in Ja.2:21 as did Stephen in Acts 7:2.Therefore, we are not to understand Yahshua's words as anti-Paulists interpret them.
Yahweh says to "honor thy father and thy mother". If I then say, "I would like to honor my father in a special way," am I breaking Yahshua's command? Obviously not, for Yahshua probably had practices similar to the Roman Catholic practice of calling their priests, "Father so and so" in mind.
Justification by Faith or Works?
Anti-Paulists are quick to bring up the supposed contradictions in Paul's teaching of justification by faith alone and what James taught in James 2.
Paul wrote:
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28)
James wrote:
"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)
Interestingly, both apostles use the same verse (Gen.15:6) to support their position.
Paul wrote:
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed Elohim, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (Rom.4:3)
James wrote:
"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of Elohim." (James 2:23)
To understand this seeming contradiction, we need to understand that each apostle is looking at justification from a different viewpoint. For example, two people can look at a triangle. One may only see a triangle while the other sees a square! How can that be? They were both viewing a pyramid; one from the side and the other from the top.
Paul is looking at justification in it's initial stage (when a person first believes). James is looking at justification after one first believes. Paul sees Abraham's faith (belief in Yahweh) prior to Abraham's work of offering up Isaac. James sees Abraham's works of offering up Isaac as a fruit of his faith (after he was justified by faith).
James did not say, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith" (James 2:24). He added the word "only" after "faith". In other words, faith comes first, but it cannot stand alone. It must be accompanied by good works.
In writing about justification, Paul was not addressing the believers behavior after having been justified. Had he addressed justification from James' viewpoint, he undoubtedly would have agreed with him. Both apostles believed the words of Habakkuk 2:4b:
"but the just shall live by his faith."
The Greek word "dikaioo", translated "justified" in James 2:24, means "to render (i.e. to show or regard as) just or innocent." Therefore, Abraham was "regarded" by Yahweh as being justified through faith, but he also "showed" he was justified by his works.
Paul the Hypocrite?
Gal.2:11-14 states, "But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to the face, because he stood condemned. For before that certain came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing them that were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that even Barnabas was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, live as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compel thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
1 Cor.9:19-22 read, "For though I was free from all men, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more. And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to [Elohim], but under law to Messiah, that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak: I am become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some."
1 Cor 10:31-33 read, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of [Elohim]. Give no occasions of stumbling, either to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the called out of Elohim: even as I also please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved."
The anti-Paulist then says:
"Why does Paul rebuke Peter for not giving offense to the circumcised and yet he himself says we should give no offense to the Jews or the Greeks and that Paul himself had become as a Jew to reach Jews and like a Greek to reach Greeks? Does Paul have a double standard?"
Is Paul being a hypocrite with a double standard? The answer is found in the motive of each man's actions. Paul's motive is found in 1 Cor.9:22:
"To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak: I am become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some."
Peter's motive is found in Gal.2:12.
"For before that certain came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing them that were of the circumcision."
Paul acted out of love and Peter acted out of fear. What does the Apostle John teach about fear?
"There is no fear in love: but perfect love casts out fear, because fear hath torment; and he that fears is not made perfect in love." 1 Jn.4:18
Peter's fear of the Jews led to the fruit of hypocrisy and was a manifestation of a lack of love on his part. Motive is the key.
Circumcision
Now we come to the two most difficult teachings of Paul, circumcision and eating meat sacrificed to idols. First we shall consider circumcision.
Acts 21:27-28 states the following:
"And when the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the multitude and laid hands on him, crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man that teaches all men everywhere against the people, and the law, and this place; and moreover he brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath defiled this holy place."
The anti-Paulist then says,
"To me it seems clear that the Jews from Asia are upset with Paul in particular for bringing uncircumcised men into the temple in violation of the words of Ezekiel. "
That is stated as fact by this anti_paulist author. However, in verse 29, Luke says:
"For they had before seen with him in the city Trophimus the Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple."
In other words, Paul was being falsely accused of polluting the temple. They assumed he brought Trophimus into the temple, but they never actually saw him do that. A similar instance can be found where Naboth the Jezreelite was falsely accused of cursing Elohim and the king, and even stoned, yet he had committed no crime (1 Kings 21:5-16).The remaining seven chapters of Acts are all related to Paul's defense against those same false accusations. It is ironic that those same false accusations are being leveled against Paul even today, and by professing brethren in Messiah, nonetheless!.
1 Cor.7:17-20 read as follows:
"Only, as the Master hath distributed to each man, as [Elohim] hath called each, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all the assemblies. Was any man called being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Hath any been called in uncircumcision? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but the keeping of the commandments of [Elohim]. Let each man abide in that calling wherein he was called."
The anti-Paulist would then say,
This last statement by Paul in 1 Corinthians is particularly troubling since he clearly seems to indicate that if you are called when you were not circumcised then you should REMAIN uncircumcised. Why then, we must ask, does Paul have Timothy circumcised if, by his own instruction, a man should remain uncircumcised if he was "called" while uncircumcised?
We need to note that 1 Corinthians was written after Paul's first visit to Corinth in Acts 18:1-17. Therefore, Timothy's circumcision in Acts 16 and Titus' avoidance of circumcision referred to in Gal.2:3-5 and which took place in Acts 15, where both before Paul's statements in 1 Cor.17.
Note in Galatians 2:3-5, Paul refused to submit to the false brethren who demanded Titus' circumcision. It reads,
"But not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Messiah Yahshua, that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we gave place in the way of subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you."
This shows Paul's consistency in his teaching that Gentile converts need not be circumcised. After the Jerusalem council's decision, which agrees with Paul's teaching in that circumcision was not one of the four requirements imposed on Gentiles, Paul has Timothy circumcised. Does this contradict his belief? No.
Timothy was being chosen to accompany Paul in his ministry. Had Timothy remained uncircumcised, it would have been a great hindrance to Paul's ministry to the Jews in that area. Timothy evidently agreed to "become as a Jew to win the Jews."
Paul was not giving a steadfast command to which there could be no exceptions. Since Timothy was not fully a Gentile, his extenuating circumstance warranted a different approach. He was not being circumcised in order to be saved, but so that others would be saved. Had Timothy not been chosen for the ministry, there would have been no need to circumcise him.
Paul was not teaching against circumcision itself, but against circumcision for the wrong reason. To be circumcised in order to be saved or justified is wrong and is a denial of salvation by grace through faith.
Meats Sacrificed To Idols
I would like to conclude this study by examining Paul's stand on eating meats sacrificed to idols. Paul's position is this: seeing that an idol is nothing, there is nothing wrong with eating the sacrificial meat unless it causes someone to stumble. Anti-Paulists would say that contradicts the Jerusalem council's decree in Acts 15 and Yahshua's words in Rev.2:14 & 20.
The Jerusalem council's decree was that the Gentiles were to abstain from things offered to idols (Acts 15:20). The Greek reads, "to hold back from pollutions of the idols." Acts 15:29 in the KJV reads, "that you abstain from meats offered to idols." The Greek reads, "to abstain from idol sacrifices." Acts 21:25 reads, "keep themselves from things offered to idols." The Greek reads, "to keep from themselves the both idol sacrifices and the blood . . ."
As you can see, there is no reference to eating the meat of those sacrifices. We can infer that, but it doesn't make it clear. The council may be decreeing that they simply abstain from sacrificing to idols.
Keep in mind two important points as you ponder this issue; 1) There is no direct command in Torah from Yahweh to not eat meat sacrificed to idols and 2) The Jerusalem council's decree was never sent to the Corinthians. Acts 15:23 says,
"And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:"
Those three locations are just north of Israel. Corinth is at least 1,000 miles away in Greece across the Aegean Sea. Paul was not told to deliver the decree to any other Gentile areas. Verse 30 shows that Paul obeyed the council and delivered the decree.
Concerning point #1: Some appeal to Ex.34:12-16 for such a command. It reads as follows:
"Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goes, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other mighty one: for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous El: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their mighty ones, and do sacrifice unto their mighty ones, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their mighty ones, and make thy sons go a whoring after their mighty ones."
Notice there is no direct command from Yahweh saying not to eat meat sacrificed to an idol. What He forbids is the making of a covenant with non-Israelites which may then lead to idolatry and idolatrous eating. When a covenant is made between two parties they become bound together in a special relationship.
Paul was in total agreement with Ex.34:12-16. He admonished the Corinthians to avoid such bonds in 2 Cor.6:14-18. It reads as follows:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Messiah with Belial? or what part hath he that believes with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of Elohim with idols? for ye are the temple of the living Elohim; as Elohim hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith [Yahweh], and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith [Yahweh] Almighty."
However, when Paul tells the Corinthians that it is permissible to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as they do not cause another to stumble, he is saying that in the context of NOT being in a covenant relationship (unequally yoked) at the time. To simply sit down and eat a meal because you are hungry is totally different than sitting down with an idolater with whom you have covenanted and partaking in his idolatry by eating his sacrifice.
Paul said:
"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to Elohim: and I would not that you should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Master, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Master's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Cor.10:20-21)
The "fellowship" comes when one places themselves in that special bonded relationship. There is no such fellowship when one simply buys a piece of meat at a meat market, even if it was sacrificed to an idol. Believers can have fellowship with each other through Messiah. We can have no fellowship with unbelievers unless we join with them through some sort of mutual bond such as a covenant, contract, sexual relations, etc.
What about Numbers 25:1-3?
"And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their mighty ones: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their mighty ones. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel."
Notice what was done as a prelude to eating meat sacrificed to idols; they committed whoredom. In other words, they joined themselves to Moab through sexual relations. They created an intimate bond of fellowship which made their eating idolatrous.
Paul wrote the following in 1 Corinthians 6:16:
"What? know you not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."
A sexual relationship creates a bond of oneness between the two. This is why Yahweh warned Israel in Ex.34:12-16 about making a covenant, especially through marriage, with non-Israelites.
Paul was not condoning eating meat sacrificed to an idol while in such a covenant relationship whether through marriage, fornication, contract, or otherwise.
With those things in mind, how do we harmonize Paul with Rev.2:14 & 20? Theses verses read as follows:
"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." (14)
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." (20)
The key word in understanding this issue is "stumblingblock" in verse 14. Balak caused Israel to stumble by having them do something they believed was wrong. Israel believed such meat to be "common" or defiled. Jezebel did the same thing by seducing believers to do the same. The issue in Rev.2 is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 14:13-15.
"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Master Yahshua, that there is nothing common of itself: but to him that esteems any thing to be common, to him it is common. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walk thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Messiah died."
Israel esteemed meat sacrificed to idols to be defiled. Yahweh never said it was, but Israel believed it was. They did not have the deeper understanding that Paul and the Corinthians had that an idol was nothing. So for Israel to eat such meat was to them a sin, but to Paul it was nothing.
Conclusion
In conclusion brethren, the Apostle Paul was truly that, an Apostle appointed and sent by Yahshua himself. His writings, when properly exegeted and rightly understood, were and are a blessing to millions of believers. May they continue to be so.
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Again Mr Slippery you try to baffle me with a whole bunch of quotes and nor address the passage I asked about. Here it is again: Tman: 4) PAUL LIED Acts 9:19-29 "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me." Acts 26:19-21 Contradicted by: Galatians: 15 "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."
Some of the contradictions are: 1) Galatians claims that after his alleged vision, Paul "Immediately" spoke to "no flesh and blood" but rather traveled to Arabia and then to Damascus. So he did not "straightway," if at all, preach boldly in Damascus as claimed by Acts (How long would it take to travel from Damascus to Arabia to Damascus? Could he go and come back "straightway"?). 2) According to Galatians, Paul did not go to Jerusalem where the apostles were. Rather, he went to Arabia then to Damascus. Now, after at least THREE YEARS (not many days), he goes to Jerusalem. It explicitly states that "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles." So this is claimed to be his FIRST visit to Jerusalem after his claimed vision. This FIRST visit is claimed to have occurred at least THREE YEARS after Paul's alleged vision. However, Acts claims that MANY DAYS after his vision he traveled to Jerusalem and performed a bold preaching campaign with all the apostles. Acts also mentions no intermediate journey to Arabia. 3) According to Galatians, upon Paul's arrival in Jerusalem he met Peter and James and no other apostles. He can not have met any apostles in Jerusalem before this because he claims that immediately after his vision "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles" Rather, it claims that he FIRST went to Jerusalem at least "three years" after his claimed vision. On the other hand, Acts claims that the first time he met the apostles was many days after his claimed vision at which time he met ALL of the apostles. This too is obviously his first meeting with them since they all feared him. Notice the words "they were ALL afraid of him." This would not be the case if Peter and James had already met him since even if they had never mentioned him to the other apostles, still, at the very least they themselves (Peter and James) would not fear him. Also notice that it was only Barnabas who stood up for him and not Barnabas, Peter, and James. 4) Galatians claims that after Paul's first visit to Jerusalem all the apostles feared him but then Barnabas convinced them to accept him and they ALL went hand in hand "in and out of Jerusalem" preaching "boldly" to the Jews. However, Acts claims that his first visit to Jerusalem was after THREE YEARS and upon this FIRST visit he met ONLY Peter and James. He is not claimed to have gone with Peter and James on a preaching campaign in and out of Jerusalem, nor could he have done so in the past with ALL of the apostles since if he had done so he would not have been "unknown by face to the churches of Judea," they would also not have "heard only" of his conversion but would have eye-witnessed his bold campaign with all of the apostles with their own eyes. If the author of the majority of the books of the New Testament can not even keep the narration of his own "salvation" straight then how are we expected to believe him in such critical matters as the "true" meanings of Jesus' words, or other matters?
Also I am waiting on your answers to my rebuttal above, so try not to slip that one too.
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What do today's Muslims need and what does Islam have to offer? A brief introduction: This is an acclaimed Eid-ul-fitr khutba (edited) given by Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem Mohammad in Kingston, Ontario, Canada in early 1997. The article is oratorical as it was intended for a general audience in a mosque. It tells us one of the major reasons why Muslims are suffering today. Dr. Sherif Mohammad's articles (include published books) have intellectual depths and are focused yet they have great literary flows that make the reading pleasant and refreshing. He is a noted Islamic thinker-writer and historian. He is an academic who teaches engineering. Assalam'Alaikum brothers and sisters, Today, we are in fact celebrating our Islam, our being members of the greatest faith ever revealed to mankind, our being believers in the most beautiful and the most comprehensive scripture that ever descended from heaven to earth, our being followers of the greatest man that ever walked on the face of the earth, our being believers in Allah, the One and Only. Had we not been Muslims, we would have not been here today.We would have not known Ramadan, not experienced the sweetness of the fast, not tasted the beauty of the prayers, we would have not known that today is Eid. Today we are celebrating, first and foremost, that we are Muslims. We are celebrating the greatest blessing of our lives: our Islam. Islam is the faith that defines us, defines who we are, defines our identity. Islam is the religion that Allah has chosen for us, has perfected for us, and has granted us as the Quran has eloquently expressed "This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3) Islam is a favor, Islam is a privilege, Islam is a bounty from Allah. Islam does not need us. We need Islam. All we have to do is to be grateful for such a great blessing and say, "Praise be to Allah who has guided us to this: never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah" (7:43) But why is it that we believe that Islam is such a tremendous bounty from Allah? Because there is nothing like Islam on earth: It is Islam that has taught human beings that the Lord their God is One and Only. That He has no partners, no wife, and no son, and that there can be no compromise on the unity of God. It is Islam that has taught human beings that they are all equal and that no Arab is superior to non-Arab, nor a non-Arab is superior to an Arab and that the best of all of us is the one who is most righteous. It is Islam that has taught human beings that they are all brothers and sisters created from a single pair of a male and a female. Therefore, Islam, unlike Hinduism, neither recognizes nor condones the idea of a caste system. Islam is at war on caste systems, on aristocracies, and hereditary social groups of all kinds. It is Islam that has taught humanity the value of the intellect, the importance of reflection, and the role of the mind in attaining faith. Christians teach that one can never become a believer except when the Holy Spirit mysteriously occupies one's heart. Islam teaches that faith is the fruit of reason and it is through continuous reflection on the wonders of creation that faith can be obtained, maintained, and nurtured. It is Islam that has taught humanity that people of all races, all colours, all ethnicities are perfectly capable of attaining faith in the One and Only God. Hindus believe that Hinduism is just for those privileged to be born in the faith and therefore they do not invite the "less privileged" to embrace their faith. Jews believe that they are the chosen race and even when they accept others to embrace Judaism, those converts are always lower in rank than those born as Jews. Islam rejects all that and calls upon all people of all backgrounds to submit themselves to their Creator. Once they do, they automatically become members of the community of Islam with the same rights and duties as any other Muslim. Islam is not, and can never be, the monopoly of one race or a certain linguistic group.
It is Islam that has taught humanity that God is absolutely Just and Merciful and that He will never punish one person for the sins of others. Christianity teaches that Adam and Eve had bequeathed their sin to all their descendants and thus all humans are born in this "Original Sin" and therefore Jesus Christ had to be sacrificed on the cross to redeem humanity of its 'original sin.' Islam says, NO. Humans are not born in sin. No person will be held accountable for another's mistakes. Every soul will pay for its own deeds, only. Divine justice is absolute. It is Islam that has taught humanity that righteous deeds are necessary for salvation. Faith is indispensable, but not sufficient. Humans will be admitted to Paradise by their faith and their righteous acts. They have to go together, hand in hand. Many Christian denominations teach that faith in Jesus is enough for salvations. If you accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross, then you are saved regardless of what you may do afterwards because Jesus has already paid for all your sins. Islam totally disagrees. No one can pay for your sins. Faith, doing righteousness, avoiding evil, and continuous repentance are the only ways for salvation. Islam does not accept, nor condone the corrupting influence on the individual as well as the society that can be caused by the idea of a "guaranteed" salvation. It is Islam that has taught humanity how to balance the needs of this life and the next. Islam does not accept the idea that renunciation of this world is the best means to get salvation in the next. Catholicism and Buddhism teach that by living a reclusive life, one can attain higher spirituality. Buddhism even taught the recluse must make his living by begging. Islam rejects the whole notion of the alleged goodness of renouncing the world. Islam teaches that best means for advancement in the next life is by getting involved in the affairs of this world by commanding good and forbidding evil; by helping one another in righteousness and piety; by doing Jihad, by struggling against all forms of evil, injustice, tyranny, intolerance...Islam does not teach rejection of the world, it teaches involvement, struggle, and change. It is Islam that has taught humanity that kindness to parents, to kin, to neighbours, and to fellow humans is an essential part of faith and righteousness. Christianity claims that Jesus has taught that one cannot come closer to God unless one hates one's father, mother, wife, children,...(Luke 14:26) Islam teaches the opposite. One cannot come closer to God unless one acts so kindly towards one's mother, father, family, neighbuors, etc. It is Islam that has taught humanity that God is very close to them and that He is with them wherever they are and that He hears their prayers and responds to them. Islam teaches that God is so close that He needs no intermediaries to mediate between Him and His servants. Islam does not accept the concept of priesthood and clergy acting as mediators between God and humans. Islam teaches that one does not have to confess one's sins to a priest in order to get forgiveness. One can simply confess one's sins to God without any human intervention, seek forgiveness, and God will grant it. Many Jews today still believe that prayers cannot reach God and get a response from Him unless the prayer is made at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. Some even fax their prayers or send it via the Internet to Jerusalem so that someone there would take it and put it on the Wailing Wall to reach God. Islam teaches that wherever one maybe, one can pray to God, confess to God, seek God's help and forgiveness, and God will certainly respond. No human intervention is needed, no special place or time is necessary. God is always very close. It is Islam that has taught humans to accept and respect their human nature. Islam recognizes the strengths, the weaknesses, and the needs of humans. Islam never requires humans to behave as angels or to ignore their physical and emotional needs. Christianity does not allow divorce. Islam recognizes it as a human reality. Catholicism considers celibacy an ideal. Islam does not. The Anglican Church frowns upon second marriages. Prince Charles in order to become King of England has to behave as a practicing Anglican. Therefore, he can commit adultery openly with his famous mistress but he cannot marry her or else he will lose the throne for violating the rules of the Church of England. Islam never engages in such irrationality and moral contradictions. There is nothing like Islam on earth. There is no faith, no religion, no ideology, no system of belief that can rival Islam in its clarity and simplicity; in its submission to God, the One and Only; in its rationality and intellectual depth; in its egalitarianism and equality; in its spirituality; in its code of ethics; in its unparalleled balance between the needs of this life and the demands of the hereafter. Islam has elevated the human soul, body, and mind to heights that have never been reached by any other faith or tradition. Islam is the only religion that has truly enabled human beings to fulfill their humanity. Islam is like a perfect piece of art at which the human eye can keep looking and scrutinizing for days, weeks, years on end and still can find no flaws, no defects, and no contradictions. All the human eye can do is to keep wondering at the amazing beauty and coherence of this faith of ours: Islam. Leopold Wiess, the Austrian Jew who embraced Islam in 1926 and became one of the greatest Muslim intellects of the twentieth century has expressed the same level of astonishment at the overwhelming beauty and coherence of Islam, "I was asked, time and again: 'Why did you embrace Islam? What was it that attracted you particularly?' -- and I must confess: I don't know of any satisfactory answer. It was not any particular teaching that attracted me, but the whole wonderful, inexplicably coherent structure of moral teaching and practical life programme. I could not say, even now, which aspect of it appeals to me more than any other. Islam appears to me like a perfect work of architecture. All its parts are harmoniously conceived to complement and support each other: nothing is superfluous and nothing lacking, with the result of an absolute balance and solid composure. Probably this feeling that everything in the teachings and postulates of Islam is 'in its proper place,' has created the strongest impression on me." In a nutshell, Islam is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It is important to note that Islam is not just a set of ideals, it is a tremendous force capable of transforming and regenerating individuals as well as societies and whole nations. The influence of Islam upon the first society that embraced it, the Arabian peninsula, was nothing short of a revolution. Islam has revolutionized Arabia in all aspects of life: politically, economically, socially, and above all morally: It was Islam that transformed the fiercely independent-minded Arabs who knew no government, obeyed no authority, recognized no state into a nation with a government, a capital, and a respected authority. It was Islam that taught the anarchic Arabs how to elect a head of state from among themselves and how to run their government upon principles of mutual consultation. It was Islam that taught the Arabs who never agreed on any form of law to build a nation based on the rule of one sacred, just, and merciful law. Islam also taught them that they were all equals before the law and no one even the daughter of the Prophet was above the law. It was Islam that transformed the intensely militant Arabs from a group of tribes massacring each other all the time -- to the extent that they had to agree on four months of peace every year to prevent their whole race from extinction due to the incessant wars -- into one nation with united tribal armies able to confront and defeat the armies of the surrounding superpowers: the Byzantines and the Sassanids. It was Islam that abolished usury from Arabia and taught the Arabs how to make business transactions justly and fairly without exploitation or abuse. It was Islam that abolished the gruesome habit of female infanticide from Arabia. It was Islam that taught the Arabs that women were full human beings, not mere chattel, and that they were their sisters in humanity and in faith. It was Islam that guaranteed for Arabian women their rights to: inheritance, property, divorce, and independent legal personality. It was Islam that eradicated alcohol, with all its evils, from Arabia. It was Islam that ended all forms of prostitution, gambling, and intoxicants from the Arabian society. And it was Islam that opened all doors for freeing slaves. It was Islam that uprooted racism from the Arab mind completely to the extent that the deeply racist and arrogant Arabs would accept to be soldiers in armies whose leaders were black Africans. And above all, it was Islam that transformed the idolatrous and superstitious Arabs into believers in the One and Only God. It was Islam that transformed them from idol worshippers into a people who stand together in one line in prayer and prostrate their heads to the Almighty. Arabia before Islam was a society bound by tradition and precedent. Whatever was customary was right and proper. Whatever the forefathers had done deserved to be imitated. Islam rejected this blind faith in tradition. Islam challenged all the customs of the society. Islam questioned all the mores and manners of the Arabs. Islam introduced to them the standards of morality and the fundamentals of right and wrong. Islam taught them how to think critically of everything around them and how to reject the bad habits and keep the good ones. Islam showed them the proper way for peace and happiness in this life and felicity in the next. This was the essence of the revolution that Islam was. The question that irresistibly comes to the mind is this: that was the past, what about now? Can Islam revolutionize the world today as it did to seventh century Arabia? Is Islam relevant today? Does Islam have anything to offer today's world? Yes, a great deal. For us, Muslims living in the West, it would be reasonable to focus on what Islam has to offer to our Western society at the dawn of a new millennium. The West, as the seventh century Arabia and as any other society for that matter, has its own virtues as well as vices. Islam can improve and enhance all the virtues while eliminating -- or, at least, minimizing -- the vices. In a society where alcohol is the number one cause of criminal death and injury; where alcohol costs billions of dollars each year in medical expenses and property damage; where alcohol consumption causes the death of hundreds of thousands of people annually; where alcohol is a major cause of rape and domestic violence -- Is there any faith more able than Islam to prevent all the ills of alcohol? In a society still tormented by racial strife; where "black" churches are continuously fire-bombed by bigots of all kinds; where one rarely sees a black person in a "white" church or a white person in a "black" church -- Islam has so much to offer because Islam does not tolerate the very idea of a "black" mosque or a "white" mosque; Islam obliges believers to stand together in one line, shoulder to shoulder and foot to foot, and prostrate their foreheads to God so that they learn they are all humble servants of the Almighty. In a society where violence against women has risen to alarming proportions, where it is not safe for women to walk alone in the dark, where even institutions of higher learning have to provide 'walk home service' to protect women on campus at night - Islam has much more to contribute than escort services or karate lessons. Islam does implant modesty and sense of propriety in the minds of the believers, Islam eradicates vulgarity, Islam eliminates any possibility that men view women as sex objects. In a society as violent as the United States where some 25000 lives are taken every year by handguns alone; where 5% of the world population consume 50% of the world's illegal drugs despite the arrest of some 700,000 drug dealers every year; where a car is stolen every few seconds; where a woman is raped every few minutes - Islam has a lot more to offer than merely putting more cops in the streets. Islam teaches that prevention is better than cure and that crime can best be reduced by taking care of the family, the community, and the neighbourhood. Islam attaches great esteem and honour to the role of the mother because when she takes proper care of her children, the whole society benefits. Islam reminds the fathers of their duties, encourages the neighbours to take care of each other's needs, strengthen community bonds, advocates commanding what is right and forbidding what is wrong instead of apathy and individualism. Islam always eliminates problems from their roots. In a society afflicted with intense individualism, excessive materialism, fierce consumerism, and unabashed sensualism; Islam has the intellectual and the spiritual power required to rectify all the excesses of the society because Islam preaches moderation and balance in all worldly and other-worldly affairs. The influence of Islam is not limited to the social and moral domains, it extends to the political, economic, legal, cultural, and educational realms as well. Two examples should suffice. In the realm of politics: the egalitarian nature of Islam requires major reforms in the way democracy is practiced in the society today. As it stands, the existing democracy is elitist and lopsided in favour of the wealthy, the powerful, and the special interests. The average person almost has no meaningful say in how things are run by the elite. This state of affairs falls far short of the ideal of mutual consultation in all affairs advocated by Islam. In the realm of economics: capitalism left unregulated has a tendency to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. In a period of ten years only (1978-1987) the poorest fifth of the American population got 8% poorer while the richest fifth got 13% richer. This is the nature of capitalism; wealth breeds more wealth, sometimes even without any effort or creativity. Islam obliges all rich people to pay part of their wealth annually to the poor so that the wealth gets redistributed in the society in order to protect the poor from perpetual poverty and give them a fair chance to compete in a world dominated by the tyranny of capital. There is so much in Islam that can truly make the West, and indeed the whole world, a safer, better, and more decent place to live in. Islam is a formidable force with potential great enough to revolutionize the world and radically change the course of history as it once did some 1400 years ago. The problem is we have got the theory, but we don't have the practitioners. We have the revolution but we do not have the revolutionaries. And as there can be no democracy without democrats, no socialism without socialists, there also can be no Islam without Muslims. Islam is a message that is in constant need for messengers to deliver it to the world. Yes, the Book of God is there, the guidance of the Prophet is there, the testimony of history is there, but where are the Muslims? Where are the messengers? Where are the revolutionaries? They effectively do not exist. What does exist in the world today is some sort of "de-Islamized" Muslims. People who call themselves Muslims but the Islam they practice is a vague shadow of the Islam described in the magnificent words of the Quran. Muslims of today practice an Islam without spirit, an Islam without a message to humanity, an Islam without a mission, an Islam without ambition... An Islam without identity. Islam will never revolutionize the world, as it once did, unless there are true Muslims, as they once existed-- Muslims from the inside-out, Muslims in thought and in action, Muslims in theory and in practice, Muslims in private and in public, Muslims in spirit, in intellect, and in emotions. The road to produce such Muslims is long and hard. It is perhaps more realistic to focus on just one good first step. This first step, I believe, would be to raise a generation of Muslim youth who take great pride in their great faith. A generation of young Muslims whose identity is purely Islamic, a generation of Muslims for whom Islam comes first and everything else - national, ethnic, racial, linguistic identity - comes, at best, a distant second-- a generation that totally believes in what the great khalifa Omar once said, " It is only because of Islam that we gained 'izzah' (honour, dignity, and pride), and if we seek 'izzah' outside of Islam, Allah will humiliate us." I once had a conversation with a brother who embraced Islam several years ago. I asked him about the things he liked or disliked the most about Islam and Muslims. His answer was, " Everything about Islam is beautiful, but there is one thing I dislike in Muslims...They do not have a great sense of pride in Islam..." The brother's point is precisely what we need to ingrain in the minds of our new generation: the sense of pride in belonging to Islam - A pride strong enough to make them declare to the whole world openly and loudly, "We are Muslims, and we are extremely proud of it."
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[quote=Tman]What do today's Muslims need.
Today's Muslims need to admit that they are decieved by satan, and they need to repent and ask God to forgive them of thier sins, also they must be born again by the spirit and the blood. see Acts: 2: 38.
When Muhammad and his community came under severe persecution, eighty-three of his followers who had no protection emigrated from Mecca to Ethiopia, taking refuge in the ancient Christian country, Abyssinia.1 Under increasing boycotts and pressure, Muhammad went through a time of weakness and compromised with the Meccan pagans by acknowledging the existence of three pagan goddesses alongside Allah: Lat, Uzza, and Manat.2 The Arabian goddesses are mentioned in Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22.
The statement that Allah was involved with female goddesses while Muhammad and his people were left with men, was cynically discussed by author Salman Rushdie.3 He made the impure account even more obscene. His book was regarded as utterly blasphemous by all Muslims.
When the inhabitants of Mecca heard Muhammad's confess the importance of the ancient goddesses inside the Ka'aba, they immediately revoked their ban on him. Those who had immigrated to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) started to return home after hearing Muhammad's confession and his acceptance in Mecca. But when they arrived, they were shocked to hear that Muhammad had retracted his confession and admitted that he had fallen prey to the whispering of Satan. Thus, today Islam considers Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22 are related to the time when Muhammad spoke the the Satanic Verses. Salman Rushdie did not invent the Satanic verses.4
In Sura Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53, Muhammad confessed his mistake, alleging that all prophets were tempted by Satan who inspire them with demonic verses, as if they were actually revealed by God. But later on Allah abrogated those Satanic Verses with new revelations and instructs his prophets with new verses. According to Islam, Allah permits such demonic inspiration to test weak believers and to cut off those with hardened hearts.
Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom: That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth): Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53. Yusuf 'Ali's translation
The true, vital issue about the Satanic verses is this. If Muhammad were unable to distinguish Satan's voice from God's voice, then could there be verses in the Qur'an that Muhammad assumed were from God but were really from Satan? Maybe much of the Qur'an is Satanic in origin, in spite of Muhammad's conviction that it was entirely from Allah.
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Noel "the Islamic scholar" still trying to push Crusader propaganda down our throats. Go to the authentic source, like one I posted above, to get the truth. Leave Islamic teaching to those who know and try and explain how Paul the Roman gives two different account of what he did after his so-called "vision". As for my rebuttals above, I guess you have no answers so you let it "slip" by again.
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Tman what rebuttals? what propaganda?
You need to admit that you made a mistake and repent and seek after the one tue God. If you can't trust the messanger how can you trust his message? open your eyes Tman.
Your prophet shady, he spoke the satanic verses and that's a proven fact. He couldn't tell God's voice apart from Satan's and he couldn't tell the Angel Gabriel from a jinn. Too many holes there Tman to rest your eternal salvation on.
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I refer to my post No 146146 of Dec 16 12:33. You have slipped a few of my rebuttals. No surprise there. The Islamic criteria for accepting a story is very high and the satanic verses don't not meet the standard as it was first reported as a "story" someone heard from an unnamed source. The chain of narration is weak and Muslim scholars do not accept that the event happened. What they accept is that the "story" was reported, quite a different thing. Please read Muslim source above. What you need to explain is how Paul the Roman had two different versions of what happened to him after his so-called vision, as outlined above. And don't give me any more of your "context" crap.
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What you need to explain is how Paul the Roman had two different versions of what happened to him after his so-called vision, as outlined above. And don't give me any more of your "context" crap. [/quote]
I already gave you 2 epistles on that already, how yuh head so tuff? go back and read them, you will see your answers.
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
What you need to explain is how Paul the Roman had two different versions of what happened to him after his so-called vision, as outlined above. And don't give me any more of your "context" crap.
I already gave you 2 epistles on that already, how yuh head so tuff? go back and read them, you will see your answers. [/quote] Please give exact reference for when you answered this specific query as I seem to have missed it.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Originally Posted By: Noel2000
What you need to explain is how Paul the Roman had two different versions of what happened to him after his so-called vision, as outlined above. And don't give me any more of your "context" crap.
I already gave you 2 epistles on that already, how yuh head so tuff? go back and read them, you will see your answers.
Please give exact reference for when you answered this specific query as I seem to have missed it. [/quote]
Nice try, the posting is still there, go review it please.
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A perfect God Islam is the only religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT God. A perfect God means that there is no sharer in His Nature and His Attributes: "Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an, 112:1-4) There has appeared a man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly cherishing the self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert Muslims to Christianity. Because he is a lawyer by profession, he is adept at juggling with words and quoting the Holy Qur'an totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to believe that Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an antithesis of the Absolute perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta 'Aala! Thus intent upon reversing the process of Truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Qur'an, 17:81). In this he will never succeed because the process of Truth is irreversible. TWO REASONS He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, viz: (i) "When we say Jesus is deity (or even God for that matter), we do not make him the Father! He is one with the Father and therefore HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and (ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father". In short, according to him, Jesus is God because He SHARES THE NATURE OF GOD, and HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training. Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can, therefore, NEVER be GOD. We have given the quotations from the Bible without comment, because the Bible speaks for itself! TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND AND INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN! (Note: Unless otherwise stated, all quotations from the Bible are given from the Authorized Version. In our headings and subheadings we have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted commas in order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man that Jesus is God!) THE BIRTH OF "GOD" "God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3) "God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27) The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1) The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27) THE FAMILY OF "GOD" "God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45) Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew, 13:54-56) THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD" Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40) Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." (Luke, 2:52) "God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42) The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) "God" Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14-15) "God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8) THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) THE MISSION OF "GOD" The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11). "God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12) THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (Matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13) A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:38) A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38) A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38) A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy." (Mark, 14:33) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43) THE WARRING "GOD" The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15) The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34) The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke, 22:36) The "GOD" ON THE RUN "God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54) "God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59) THE CAPTURE OF "GOD" A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67) "God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said: "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, he is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32) THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD" The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37) The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33) The Supposed Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58) The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59) The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47) EPILOGUE According to this self-appointed apostle of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with this Christian. Either he must prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBAL LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!! He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophecy was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammed (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)!
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Originally Posted By: Tman
You are making the charge so come with your proof and while you are at it explain why Paul lied about his "vision".
Allah is the name of the only God in Islam. Allah is a pre-Islamic name coming from the compound Arabic word Al-ilah which means the God, which is derived from al (the) ilah (deity).
The Arabic name for “God” is the word “Al-ilah.” It is a generic title for whatever god was considered the highest god. Different Arab tribes used “Allah” to refer to its personal high god. “Allah” was being worshipped at the Kaa’ba in Mecca by Arabs prior to the time of Mohammed. It was formerly the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca before Mohammed made them into monotheists. Historians have shown that the moon god called “Hubal” was the god to whom Arabs prayed at the Kaa’ba and they used the name “Allah” when they prayed.
Today a Muslim is one who submits to the God Allah.
Islam means submission to (Allah), but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe. (Dr. M. Baravmann, The Spiritual Background of Early Islam, E. J. Brill, Leiden, 1972)
Many believe the word “Allah” was derived from the mid- eastern word “el” which in Ugaritic, Caananite and Hebrew can mean a true or false God. This is not the case, “The source of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning “God” (or a “god”), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.” (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (ed. Hastings), I:326.)
According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme God. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed's tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon God, who had 3 daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people into Allah. Their names were Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likeness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold. (Reference Islam George Braswell Jr.
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Refernece some Islamic scholars when you talk to me about Islam and not westerners and Orientalists. Muhammad (PBUH) personally destroyed the 360 idols in the Khabbah and taught the people to worship the One True God, Who is called Allah in the Arabic tongue and does not meant Hubal or any other such nonsense.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Refernece some Islamic scholars when you talk to me about Islam and not westerners and Orientalists. Muhammad (PBUH) personally destroyed the 360 idols in the Khabbah and taught the people to worship the One True God, Who is called Allah in the Arabic tongue and does not meant Hubal or any other such nonsense.
A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are displayed in the British Museum to this day. Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the Moon-god. In the 1950's a major temple to the Moon-god was excavated at Hazer in Palestine. Two idols of the moon god were found. Each was a stature of a man sitting upon a throne with a crescent moon carved on his chest . The accompanying inscriptions make it clear that these were idols of the Moon-god. Several smaller statues were also found which were identified by their inscriptions as the "daughters" of the Moon-god. What about Arabia? As pointed out by Prof. Coon, "Muslims are notoriously loath to preserve traditions of earlier paganism and like to garble what pre-Islamic history they permit to survive in anachronistic terms."
During the nineteenth century, Amaud, Halevy and Glaser went to Southern Arabia and dug up thousands of Sabean, Minaean, and Qatabanian inscriptions which were subsequently translated. In the 1940's, the archeologists G. Caton Thompson and Carleton S. Coon made some amazing discoveries in Arabia. During the 1950's, Wendell Phillips, W.F. Albright, Richard Bower and others excavated sites at Qataban, Timna, and Marib (the ancient capital of Sheba). Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates that the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon-god.
I will NEVER again respond to any posts he makes. This ass@#$% is hateful, spiteful and hellish in nature.
He is a PRIME EXAMPLE why I hate ALL religions equally.
Some scholars[who?] have suggested that Muhammad used the term Allah in addressing both pagan Arabs and Jews or Christians in order to establish a common ground for the understanding of the name for God, a claim Gerhard Böwering says is doubtful.[11] According to Böwering, in contrast with Pre-Islamic Arabian polytheism, God in Islam does not have associates and companions nor is there any kinship between God and jinn.[11] Pre-Islamic pagan Arabs believed in a blind, powerful, inexorable and insensible fate over which man had no control. This was replaced with the Islamic notion of a powerful but provident and merciful God.[30]
According to Francis Edwards Peters, "The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews (29:46). The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham". Peters states that the Qur'an portrays Allah as both more powerful and more remote than Yahweh, and as a universal deity, unlike Yahweh who closely follows Israelites.[7]
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Historians like Vaqqidi have said Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi gave 27 names of pre-Islamic deities...Interestingly, not many Muslims want to accept that Allah was already being worshipped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by Arab pagans before Mohammed came. Some Muslims become angry when they are confronted with this fact. But history is not on their side. Pre-Islamic literature has proved this.” (G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah? (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994), pg. 138).
History has shown Mecca and the holy stone al-Kaaba were holy sites for pre-Islamic pagan Arabs. The Kaaba in Mecca was formerly named Beit-Allah meaning House of Allah. We are told it was first built in heaven. This is in contradistinction to what Moses was instructed to build, something overlooked by the Muslims in their reading of the Bible.
The Koran tells us that Mohammed drove the other idols away; he made one God now the only god and he was its messenger. He kept the Kaaba as a holy, sacred place and confirmed that the black stone had the power to take away man's sins. He obligated every believer to make a pilgrimage to the stone at least once in his lifetime. (Sura 22:26-37) No Old Testament saint ever had a pilgrimage to the Kaaba and kissed its black stone despite stories that Abraham and Ishmael restored it.
Mohammed used the name Allah which was formerly the name of a specific idol without ever distinguishing it from the idol the Meccan’s were already worshipping. This was a modification of their former worship but never a complete break. He never did say for the people to stop their worship of the wrong Allah, for the right one. It can still be monotheism and not be the God of the Bible
Al-Lat which is a T at the end of the name of Allah, was represented by a square stone whose major sanctuary was in the city of Taif. In the sanctuary was a black stone in the town of Qudayd between Mecca and Medina. She was the goddess of fate, a female counterpart of Allah. Al-uzza was the goddess of east Mecca. It has been said there were human sacrifices made to her and Islamic tradition tells of a story of Mohammed’s grandfather almost sacrificing his son the father of Mohammed to her. What prevented this was his seeking counsel from a fortune teller which told him to ransom his son with one hundred camels. Muslims look to this as the will of Allah to bring Mohammed into existence. (Reference Muhammad husain haykal, Hayat mohammed)
“The name Allah, as the Qur'an itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa.” (Arthur Jeffrey, ed., Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (1958), p. 85.)
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Noel the Orientalist knows so much about Islam yet did not know his own Bible says Abraham too Hagar for his wife. "Scholar" remove the tree from your eye before you remove the mote in your brother's.
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Al-Kindi, one of the early Christian apologists against Islam, pointed out that Islam and its god Allah did not come from the Bible but from the paganism of the Sabeans. They did not worship the God of the Bible but the Moon-god and his daughters al-Uzza, al-Lat and Manat. Dr. Newman concludes his study of the early Christian-Muslim debates by stating, "Islam proved itself to be...a separate and antagonistic religion which had sprung up from idolatry." Islamic scholar Caesar Farah concluded "There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews." The Arabs worshipped the Moon-god as a supreme deity. But this was not biblical monotheism. While the Moon-god was greater than all other gods and goddesses, this was still a polytheistic pantheon of deities. Now that we have the actual idols of the Moon-god, it is no longer possible to avoid the fact that Allah was a pagan god in pre-Islamic times. Is it any wonder then that the symbol of Islam is the crescent moon? That a crescent moon sits on top of their mosques and minarets? That a crescent moon is found on the flags of Islamic nations? That the Muslims fast during the month which begins and ends with the appearance of the crescent moon in the sky?
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Al-Kindi, Dr Newman, Caesar Farah and you can cry till the end of time, Muslims worship the ONE True God (no son, no trinity, no mother of God). Dunder-head, the word Allah is just the Arabic for God. It does not mean we worship the pre-islamic gods. Muhammad (PBUH) came and show them the right path. The moon is a just one of the may signs of Allah. We use it to calculate the months of the year which we find is more accurate that the western system. We dont worship the moon , eeidat. Do Christians worship the cross, or Jews the star of David?
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When Muhammad gained power and began asserting his authority, the Muslim creed’s first article became “La-ilaha illa-Llahu, meaning “there is no god except the one you already know as Al-ilah. So Islam and Al-ilah was derived from heathen Arabian worshippers of idols. Muhammad later prohibited worship of “The Daughter’s of Al-ilah” and any of the other 359 pagan gods of Arabian tribes.
Since Muhammad came from the tribe of Quraysh in Mecca and their god was Al-ilah, he denounced all the other gods. He chose Al-ilah as his own god out of the 360, which was his assertion of his newly gained power
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and Paul chose Roman/Greek gods like Asteroth (Easter), Salutarius (Sunday) and other pagan rites like the winter soltice (December 25) to induce the Romans/Greeks to follow his religion. This was verified by the committee of Nicea in 325 which decided by a vote to adopt the Roman/Greek way over the Eastern way and was ratified by the Roman Emperor Constantine. ALL Christian religious holidays, from Sunday dedicated to the sun god, Thursady to Thor the god of war, to the trinity has Roman/Greek/pagan origins, so who are you really praying to?
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Christianity and Paulinity Christianity is a Semitic religion, which claims to have nearly 1.2 billion adherents all over the world. Christianity owes its name to Jesus Christ (peace be on him). The Holy Bible is the sacred scripture of the Christians: a) The Bible is divided into two parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is the Holy Scripture of the Jews and contains records of all the prophets of the Jews that came before Jesus (pbuh). The New Testament contains records of the life of Jesus (pbuh). b) The complete Bible, i.e. the Old Testament and the New Testament put together, contains 73 books. However, the Protestant Bible i.e. the King James Version, contains only 66 books as they consider 7 books of the Old Testament to be apocrypha, i.e. of doubtful authority. Therefore the Old Testament of the Catholics, contains 46 books and that of the Protestants, 39 books. However the New Testament of both these sects contains 27 books.
CHRISTIANITY and JESUS - AN ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE Christmas holidays come and go each year with a shopping frenzy, hustle and bustle, Santa Clauses, Christmas trees, decorations and lights. This is the time when Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus. This article addresses the following questions relying mostly on quotations from the Holy Quran: What are the origins of Christianity? Was Jesus (pbuh) born without a father? Is Jesus (pbuh) a son of God? Did Jesus (pbuh) speak as a baby? Was he crucified?
THE ORIGINS OF CHRISTIANITY Historical facts reveal that Jesus (peace be on him) did not use the word Christianity. He and his followers used to worship in the temple which other Israelites used. The message of Jesus was to call people back to the religion of Abraham and Moses from which they had gone astray. After Jesus, Paul declared that belief in Jesus sufficed for salvation. The Jewish scholars of that time called the followers of Jesus the misguided sect of Nazarene or Galilaens. In 43 C.E., when Paul and Barnabas went to Antioch to preach, they were ridiculed and were called Christians by the masses. The ones who were called Christians felt that if they are being given a name in reference to Jesus, there is nothing wrong in accepting it. Westerners have used the similar concept in labelling Muslims as Mohammedans. Oddly enough, literature on "Mohammedans" is still in abundance in the Western libraries.
PAUL ALTERED THE MESSAGE At the beginning, Paul was a staunch opponent of Jesus and remained so for many years after his ascension. When he did join the followers of Jesus later on, he initiated many alterations in the teachings of Jesus in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). He introduced the following concepts into Christianity: the concept of Jesus as son of God; Jesus died on the cross to wash eternal sins of Adam's children through his blood; and the Law of Torah was renounced. Paul eliminated all regulations concerning food and abrogated the injunctions of circumcision. The real followers of Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. Their struggle to reject the notion of divinity of Jesus continued for about two hundred years. Since these alterations were very appealing to the Gentiles, the true believers were unable to stop the misguidance. In 325 C.E., a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and officiated Paul's beliefs as their religion. The Roman empire declared Paul's religion as the religion of the state and all those books which denied these beliefs were banned. In 367 C.E., the state announced a list of books acceptable to it and fifteen years later, a council held under the presidency of Pope Damasius gave its approval to these books. At the end of the fifth century, Pope Galasius published a list of unauthorized books (Apocryphal) to further conform with Paul's religion of Christianity.
JESUS BORN WITHOUT A FATHER The true story of Jesus' birth from Mary is narrated in the Holy Qur’an. We are told that he was born without a father by the command of God. Mary was single and a chaste woman. (21:91) And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples. 19:16 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. 19:17 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. 19:18 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God." 19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son." 19:20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" 19:21 He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed." 19:22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. 19:23 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" 19:24 But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; 19:25 "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. 19:26 "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eyes. And if thou dost see any man, say, `I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "
JESUS SPOKE AS A BABY 19:27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! 19:28 "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" 19:29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 19:31 "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 19:32 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 19:33 "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. 19:36 Verily, God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. 19:37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a momentous Day!
HE BEGETS NOT! We note that the Holy Qur’an refers to Jesus as 'Jesus ibn Maryam', i.e., Jesus son of Mary. It is in contrast to the common usage in which children are referred to by their father's name and not by their mother's name. He is not a son of God. The following chapter from the Holy Qur’an explains the position of Islam in absolute terms: SAY: "God is Unique!! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Qur’an 112)
JESUS WAS NOT CRUCIFIED The Holy Qur’an also rejects the claim that Jesus was killed on the cross. 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. 4:158 Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise. 4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them. Based on the statements of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus will return to earth at a time when Muslims will be in a dire need of a leader. He will not initiate a new religion but rather obey the Holy Qur’an and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad and lead Muslims to victory over the disbelievers. We hope that this short essay will help our readers understand the origins of Christianity and Islam's position on Jesus. We encourage everyone to read the Holy Quran to obtain a better understanding of Jesus and Islam. The Holy Quran also gives a detailed account of the mission and lives of "Jewish" prophets like Moses and Zakarea. Altogether, twenty-five prophets are mentioned by name in the Quran, including prophet Abraham, who was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but a devout Muslim and a friend of Allah. Further readings: Jesus son of Mary- A Messenger of Allah
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY by Dr. Zakir Naik
Position of Jesus (peace be on him) in Islam: (i) Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh). (ii) We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt). (iii) We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe. (iv) We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh). (v) We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission. (iv) We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission.
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY: Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed divinity One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians’ insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh): (i) "My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28] (ii) "My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29] (iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28] (iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20] (v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]
The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to fulfill the Law Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]
God Sent Jesus' (pbuh) The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses: (i) "… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me." [The Bible, John 14:24] (ii) "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent." [The Bible, John 17:3]
Jesus Refuted even the remotest suggestion of his divinity Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible: "And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’ And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ " [The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17] Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).
Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a man approved of God The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." [The Bible, Acts 2:22]
The First Commandment is that God is One
The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier: "Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad." This is a Hebrew quotation, which means: "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord." [The Bible, Mark 12:29] It is striking that the basic teachings of the church such as trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God. Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.
CONCEPT OF GOD IN OLD TESTAMENT: God is One The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh): "Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad". It is a Hebrew quotation which means: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" [The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]
Unity of God in the Book of Isaiah The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah: (i) "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." [The Bible, Isaiah 43:11] (ii) "I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me." [The Bible, Isaiah 45:5] (iii) "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." [The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
Old Testament condemns idol worship (i) Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me." "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God." [The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]
A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy: "Thou shalt have none other gods before me." "Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth." "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God." [The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]
Did Jesus and Isaiah PROPHESY the coming of MUHAMMAD? Note: The following is written in a language that is intended as an `Invitation' (Daw'ah) to Christians, who have confused the concept of "Spirit of Truth" (a Paraclete) with "Holy Spirit". Moses and Isaiah PROPHESIED the coming of JESUS. Did Jesus and Isaiah PROPHESY the coming of MUHAMMAD? To understand the prophecies made by Jesus on the subject, one has to begin with the First Epistle of John, Chapter 2, Verse 1. Here, Jesus Christ is called a "Paraclete" (Parakletos, Advocate, Comforter, Helper) by apostle John. The same term "Paraclete" is used by the apostle in his Gospel, in connection with a portentous prophecy made by Jesus Christ, before the end of his ministry upon this earth, for the coming of "another Paraclete". Prophet Moses also made a similar prophecy, before the end of his ministry, for the coming of his successor. Jesus Christ declared; "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16 Note: We often read the verse ending as; "with you for ever". However; "into the age" is the literal translation of the Greek phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by John. These two verses by John clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ, while speaking of "another Paraclete", was speaking of the coming of "another male figure" like himself, some time in the future, after his departure. The passage quoted below also confirms that the original concept among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the "Paraclete" was for the coming of a "male figure", but that concept was later confused with the "Holy Spirit". Here is an extract from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible Volume 29A: "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1John ii1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. ...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Butlmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135). The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ, besides being a "Messiah" was also a prophet like Moses, by his own admission. Please see John 5:46 and 9:17. Hence to say that the coming of "another Paraclete" was similar to the coming of "another Prophet" like Jesus and Moses, would not be inaccurate. OTOH, the concept of "Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse: "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7 This verse clearly tells us that the coming of the Paraclete was subject to the departure of Jesus. Whereas, the "Holy Spirit" was already present. It was in existence since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Genesis 1:2). It was also present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" happened to be present at River Jordan when Jesus Christ was being baptised by John the Baptist, in the early part of his ministry. So, how could Jesus say; "but if I go, I will send Holy Spirit"? "When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26 This above verse clears the confusion. The Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure, whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it". "But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26 Note: 1. In the older MSS, Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is a reference to "the Spirit of Truth" as in 15:26. 2. The word spirit, Greek. `pneu'ma', is of neutral gender and takes pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted above and below, the pronoun used is "he". 3. In 1 John 4:6, the terms "the spirit of truth" and "the spirit of error" are used for the human beings. 4. History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his truth and honesty, long before he received the Revelations. Jesus Christ did indicate what the Paraclete to come will do in his time. Did prophet Muhammad do those things? Let's examine; 1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn.16:13 Note: The Qur’an is a compilation of the Divine Revelations that were received by prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. The Prophet's companions used to write down whatever was recited. The Qur’an does not contain the writings or teachings of or by Muhammad, as often mentioned by some misinformed authors.
2. "He shall glorify me." John 16:14 Note: The Qur’an glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary. The Qur’an also confirms, Jesus was a Messiah; a Messenger of God; the Spirit from God; the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet. 3. "He shall take mine and shall disclose it to you." Jn.16:14 Note: Muhammad did declare himself a Messenger of God like Abraham, Moses and Jesus. 4. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26 Note: The Qur’an teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually. 5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Jn.14:26 Note: The Qur’an speaks about the teaching of the righteous Jesus and even quotes him. 6. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26 Note: The Qur’an attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded. The Qur’an acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).
PROPHET ISAIAH Prophet Isaiah is considered to be one of the major prophets of the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah there are several prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah begins with a prophecy for the coming of prophet Jesus. After verse number nine, God declares through Isaiah, the "new things" that are to "spring forth" in the Land of Kedar. In the Bible there is only one personality called Kedar. He was the grandson of prophet Abraham, through his son Ishmael (see Gen.25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran (Syno-Arabian dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia is called the "Land of Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.
God declares through Isaiah; "Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Chapter 42, Verses 9-12. God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an. This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited like a poem. Nearly 1.5 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble in Mecca and shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat. The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and from Mecca.
"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Verse 13. In the Old Testament the God often speaks "I" will do this, or "I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings like us, to do these jobs. (see 2 Samuel 12:7-12). Muhammad did go forth as a mighty prophet of Allah, did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating tribe of the pagan Arabs in Arabia. Finally with a war cry and roar, Muhammad did prevail upon the enemies of Lord - the idolaters, fulfilling the above prophecy. "I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14. The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of sharing God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with the war cry, through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these sinful practices were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once. "And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Verse 16. It is an undeniable fact that before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arabs were like the blind. Their religious and social concepts were crooked. The revelation of this "new song" brought them out of that darkness. Earlier, God had not sent any prophet to these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfilled His above promise and also the following promise to Abraham; "And also of the son of the bondwoman I will make a nation, because he is thy seed." Genesis 21:13.
Please note the word "also" in above promise. The nations of Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three children of Abraham by God's covenants with Abraham.
This also fulfils the following prophecy by Jesus; "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you thing to come." John 16:13 "They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images, `Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.
History records that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)did put the pagan idolaters to great shame when he demolished before them, their 365 idols that were installed in Ka'bah (Mecca), the most respected place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.
Akbarally Meherally
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Originally Posted By: Tman
and Paul chose Roman/Greek gods like Asteroth (Easter), Salutarius (Sunday) and other pagan rites like the winter soltice (December 25) to induce the Romans/Greeks to follow his religion. This was verified by the committee of Nicea in 325 which decided by a vote to adopt the Roman/Greek way over the Eastern way and was ratified by the Roman Emperor Constantine. ALL Christian religious holidays, from Sunday dedicated to the sun god, Thursady to Thor the god of war, to the trinity has Roman/Greek/pagan origins, so who are you really praying to?
I agree with you on that one, that's why I told you that I follow Jesus Christ and not the religious establishments. I am not aligned with no religious entities, I bash christianity the same way I bash Islam and all religions.
And if you think all I do is just cut and paste then you are worst than the anti christ Trini, because it shows that a man that doesn't believe in God, that doesn't know God can easily influence you, you're just echoing the same garbage that the fool trini is saying and him don't even have the balls to post something in his defense, but he wants to meet me at church. I make no pact with eveil, I exposed evil. Trini is anti christ and Tman is a member of a very dangerous cult. Then again it dosen't surprize me, because all you have is religion and no form of godliness. Talk to me about spirituallity, not religion.
At times we must even give up something that we think is good in order to do what God wants. Each person’s special duties determine the discipline and self-denial that he or she must accept. Without a goal, discipline is nothing but self-punishment. With the goal of pleasing God, our sacrifices seem like nothing compared to the eternal, imperishable reward that will be ours. BIBLE READING: 1 Timothy 4:7-10 KEY BIBLE VERSE: Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wives’ tales. Spend your time and energy in training yourself for spiritual fitness. Physical exercise has some value, but spiritual exercise is much more important, for it promises a reward in both this life and the next. (1 Timothy 4:7-8)
SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE MAKES US SPIRITUALLY “FIT." Tman, are you in shape both physically and spiritually? In our society, much emphasis is placed on physical fitness, but spiritual health (godliness) is even more important. Our physical health is susceptible to disease and injury, but faith can sustain us through these tragedies. To be spiritually “fit,” we must develop our faith by using our God-given abilities in the service of the church (1 Timothy 4:14-16). Are you developing your spiritual muscles? BIBLE READING: Hebrews 12:1-4 KEY BIBLE VERSE: Since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily hinders our progress. And let us run with endurance the race that God has set before us. (Hebrews 12:1)
SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE STRIPS AWAY THE NONESSENTIALS. The Believers life involves hard work. It requires us to give up whatever endangers our relationship with God, to run patiently, and to struggle against sin with the power of the Holy Spirit. To live effectively, we must keep our eyes on Jesus. We will stumble if we look away from him to stare at ourself or at the circumstances surrounding us. We should be running for Christ, not religion or Ourself, and we must always keep him in sight, not Muhammad or Paul.
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and you must be willing and able to defend your views in public and not put up silly excuses and run and hide like a little girl. What better way to expose "evil" than to meet in an open debate and defeat it? Go hide behind your mother frock tail , Nellie, and leave the serious discussion to people who are willing to defend it.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
and you must be willing and able to defend your views in public and not put up silly excuses and run and hide like a little girl. What better way to expose "evil" than to meet in an open debate and defeat it? Go hide behind your mother frock tail , Nellie, and leave the serious discussion to people who are willing to defend it.
Mr religious, you're asking me to defend religion?
Have you noticed that we are both engaging in a non- productive debate which no one benefits from? Lets us keep this thread open and shut down the others, lets move from debate to discussion. Whatever name you want to call God, you and I have agreed that there is only one God, so lets burn religion and religious debates and lets tell people about the goodness and the love of the Almighty God. For weeks we have been engaging in the very same thing that satan wants, he wants us to be distracted with religion and take Our focus off God. Tman, in the genesis of time in the Garden of Eden, God created male and female and they stood in His presence and they walked and talked with God, Tman no religion was there, that was a relationship and that is what God is call us to, He is calling us to be in a relationship with Him. God is not interested in Our religion or Our religious beliefs, He is interested in a relationship with Us. Religions of the world was designed to keep mankind separated from God. So, Tman my friend will you continue to embrace religion and follow it to hell or will you seek the face of The Almighty by entering into a relationship with Him?
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I'm asking you do defend your point of view on your relationship with God in public. You say you dont follow a "religion" like Christianity, but how did you get the that point if not through Christian teachings and the Bible? Dont worry about my "religion" as it already involves a direct relationship with God, without any middleman, priest, or son of God. Direct line me fren, you should try it. Its free, you just have to believe.
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[quote=Tman]I'm asking you do defend your point of view on your relationship with God in public.
Tman, I already did what you're asking me to do, it's call Baptism. Baptism is the public announcement of a personal experience. It is a Bliever's act of obedience and a public testimony of a believer’s willingness to identify with and follow Christ. Jesus gave us his example and his command to teach us about baptism. John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the Jordan River, leaving us an example to do the same as a public statement of our faith. Likewise, Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize other believers (Matthew 28:19). Baptism is a picture of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. It is an outward picture of a person’s inward change. The believer leaves behind the old way of life in exchange for new life in Christ. Baptism is a symbol of salvation-not a requirement for eternal life. However, as an act of obedience, it also is not optional for Believers. Baptism indicates our willingness to tell the world that we are committed to the person of Christ and his teachings.
You say you dont follow a "religion" like Christianity, but how did you get the that point if not through Christian teachings and the Bible?
Tman, I am a Believer, and I don't think that Christianity as we know it today is what Jesus intended for it to be that's why I separate myself from it and do not Identify with it, it's just another enterprize like Islam and the major religwrongs of the world and Jesus feels the same way, see what he says in Revelation 3:
The Message to the Church in Laodicea 14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the ruler* of God’s creation: 15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. And also buy white garments so you will not be shamed by your nakedness. And buy ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I am the one who corrects and disciplines everyone I love. Be diligent and turn from your indifference. 20 “Look! Here I stand at the door and knock. If you hear me calling and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal as friends. 21 I will invite everyone who is victorious to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne. 22 Anyone who is willing to hear should listen to the Spirit and understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
Tman, if you don't have the righteousness of Christ Jesus then you are self righteous. SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS REJECTS THE NECESSARY ADMISSION OF OUR SINFULNESS. Those who are sure that they are righteous can’t be saved, because the first step in following Jesus is acknowledging our need and admitting that we don’t have all the answers. As long as people insist on their own qualifications as good enough to stand before God, they are cut off from hope. BIBLE READING: Luke 15:1-32
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I already declared my relationship with God in public when I took my vows to become a Muslim. How come you "know" so much about Islam and you dont know that part? Let us end this debate by saying we worship no other but the One True God as He commamded.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
I already declared my relationship with God in public when I took my vows to become a Muslim. How come you "know" so much about Islam and you dont know that part? Let us end this debate by saying we worship no other but the One True God as He commamded.
I worship the one true God you worship Organized religion. You are a muslim and I am spiritural, I follow the teachings of his Majesty Jesus Christ and nothing else.
Tman, all people have a longing for something that is the ultimate reality, the ultimate satisfaction to fill their lives. And they have a sense of wonder at the universe that they see. And so religions sprang up, with people coming up with different ideas about why the world existed, and who was in charge of it, or in charge of their bit of it, and what this being was like.
For instance, Buddhism says, "If you do compassionate acts, live according to the eight-fold path and meditate properly, letting go of everything, and all desire, that holds you to this life, you will find your way to the ultimate - to Nirvana."
Islam says, "If you live according to the five pillars (main rules) of Islam and do good works, if you submit to Allah and pray five times a day, God will accept you to paradise."
And Christianity, as a world religion, so often gives a similar message. "You can come to Jesus if you say a special prayer, or are splashed with 'holy water', or agonise over your sins. God is waiting for you; if you come, you will be welcome, but you must find your own way; find your own faith within yourself; make your own repentance."
The Good News of Jesus is so very different from this. All these religions are ways for people to try to make their way to God. This is an admirable desire and in many senses shouldn't be discouraged. But sadly it is a futile attempt, because we can never find our own way to God, and it is entirely unnecessary. Because God himself has made a way, but it is not a way from us up to him, it is a way from him to us. In Jesus we see God coming to us - not just to the respectable people, or the religious people or the earnestly moral people; nor to the rich and comfortable places, to a position where servants would wait on him. But to the lowest places, the unrespectable, the immoral, to those who have reached an end of all hope or faith - yes, especially to them. This is the true route of connection between God and people - from God right to where you are.
What's wrong with religion is not the desire for connection with God, but that it makes people feel that they have to do something to achieve or earn this. God has already done everything necessary to enable a loving relationship between us and himself; and to save us from doing destructive things and from the utter annihilation which would happen to us and the entire universe if it were not for his gift of Jesus to us. It might be hard to believe, when one way or another you have had to pay or sacrifice for everything you wanted, but it truly is a gift - entirely free: that he will raise us to endless life and fill us with his love.
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Mu youth I am trying to end this peacefully and respectfully but you insist on passing judgment, which is reserved for God. I will leave you with these words from the Qur'an: 29.46 "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in submission [Islam])."
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and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in submission [Islam])." [/quote]
Tman, the teaching of Mohammed's writings to the children in Islamist countries is similar to "brainwashing" wherein they chant over and over the same indoctrinations. For example, a signal is sounded five times a day for the children to fall on their faces before Allah. This indoctrination continues on into adulthood. Also, the children are taught, among other things, that Israel and the United States are hated "infidels" and that to kill them is pleasing to Allah and an honorable thing to do. Among the Islamic nations war has almost always been a way of life.
The teachings of Jesus Christ are based on love for God, for ones neighbors, for self, and even for ones enemies. Children are taught the love of God via the example of His Only Begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The free will of the individual is respected even in children. They are taught the way of love and its blessings and the way of hate and selfishness and its consequences, hoping that when the child becomes mature, he or she will "choose" the way of love for their lives. The teachings of the Bible leaves the option of war open, but to be used only for self-defense.
Acts 4: 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,‘The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.’* 12 There is salvation in no one else! There is no other name in all of heaven for people to call on to save them.
Acts 2: 34 For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in honor at my right hand 35 until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.’* 36 So let it be clearly known by everyone in Israel that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified to be both Lord and Messiah!” 37 Peter’s words convicted them deeply, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is to you and to your children, and even to the Gentiles* —all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
Gunsights' biblical references concern US and UK forces British soldier uses the new Advanced Combat Optical Sight Britain's Ministry of Defence it was unaware of the markings
Coded references to biblical passages are inscribed on gunsights widely used by the US and British military in Iraq and Afghanistan, it has emerged.
The markings include "2COR4:6" and "JN8:12", relating to verses in the books of Corinthians II and John.
Trijicon, the US-based manufacturer, was founded by a devout Christian, and says it runs to "Biblical standards".
But military officials in the US and UK have expressed concern over the way the markings will be perceived.
The company has added the references to its sights for many years, but the issue surfaced only recently when soldiers complained to an advocacy group.
Raised lettering
Versions of Trijicon's Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight (Acog) are used by the US Special Operations Forces, the US Marine Corps and the US Army.
Many soldiers know of them and are very confused as to why they are there and what it is supposed to mean US soldier, quoted by Military Religious Freedom Foundation
Britain's Ministry of Defence has just ordered 480 Acog sights for use on its new Sharpshooter rifles - to be used by troops in Afghanistan. Other versions of the Acog sight are "widely in service", the ministry says.
The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number.
John 8:12 reads: "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
The nod to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians, found on the company's Reflex sight, references the text: "For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
An MoD spokesman told the BBC the ministry appreciated the biblical references could cause offence and was talking to its supplier, but was "not aware at the time of purchase that these markings had any broader significance".
'Propaganda tool'
The US Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's, signing deals for $66m (£40.3m) of the company's products in 2009 alone.
The US Marine Corps told the BBC they were "concerned with how this may be perceived" and were meeting with the company to "discuss future sight procurements".
We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals Trijicon
The US Army said it was looking into any potential policy violation.
The issue has been thrust into the spotlight by the US Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) - an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.
On 14 January, the MRFF received an e-mail, purportedly from a Muslim US Army infantryman, complaining about the markings.
"Many soldiers know of them and are very confused as to why they are there and what it is supposed to mean."
The email adds: "Everyone is worried that if they were captured in combat that the enemy would use the Bible quotes against them in captivity or some other form of propaganda."
MRFF president Mikey Weinstein says the inscriptions could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool.
"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Koran were being inscribed onto these US armed forces gunsights instead of New Testament citations," he said.
A Trijicon spokesman told the BBC the company "has been working to provide America's military men and women with high quality, innovative sighting systems for the weapons they use".
"Our effort is simple and straightforward: to help our servicemen and women win the war on terror and come home safe to their families.
"As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades.
"As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation," the spokesman added.
The company states on its website: "We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals."
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ja benefits from caricom. Also what does this have to do with the reggaeboyz, cfu, or concacaf?
A bunch of faggot's posing as the people of God, America is a modern day sodom and gomarrow, dont worry Uncle Sam when god pour out him rath it will happen in the twinkling of an eye, and the Angels rejoyced saying Babylon the great has fallen, that Mystery Babylon that the scriptures talks about is America as Ancient Babylon was no mystert, Mystery Babylon revealed. Jesus speaking to his disciples Tman said this wicked and adoulterous generation seeketh after a sighn but no sighn shal be given except the sighn of Jonah, Jonah refered to as the reluctant Prophet, so to as Jonah was in the belly of the beast so too the son of man was in the heart of the earth for three days, the heart of the earth is America that pumps life economic life into the rest of the world, and also is that belly of the beast, THE language as Jonah was not in no whales stomache, people take the Bible and the Holy Quran out of context, as the Quran say's some of the verses are alegoric and some are decisive, but pork eata preacher bwoy love the alegoric part so they can pin there own interpretation on it, some so called Islamic Scholars to but i wouldnt give two cent's for what some of them think they know. The Prpohet Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Salah wa laim said to his follower;s then three generation' after i am gone you will no longer be of me.
Tman some one on the forum said it best never argue with an idiot, he will make you out to be one and drag you down right with him. There is a saying in Jamaica he who know's not and know' not that he know' not shun him.
I heard that you share a joke:Just happened ... ... dinner, a man drank too much, reach for a glass of wine full of carefully blowing a few times, drink, shouted: "so hot so hot! "
