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#1440 - 08/17/01 10:04 PM
Go easy on the TD
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Topnotch
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Registered: 03/18/01
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I have mixed feelings about this but I see where there is a chorus calling for the replacement of the coach immediately. I am not endorsing Clovis but I am just trying to exercise some common sense here. I criticize him a lot but not to bring him down but in the hope that changes will be made for the better of the team. I think his performance has been average but at this stage we have to soldier on in this campaign with him and hope he gets it together. It’s still possible. We will have to rise or fall with Clovis because all the cards are already on the table. We have no ace to play now.
It's easy for Mexico to change a coach at this stage and do well but not so Jamaica. Why? Well Mexico has a very strong professional league system (with some very good clubs) and the vast majority of their national players play there.
So if you are a newly appointed national coach of Mexico with little time to work with you simple make one of the top clubs the nucleus of your national team. These players would of course be very familiar with each other so this is very workable.
Not so with Jamaica. Our players are scattered all over the place and a new coach would have a hard time getting them all together for a practice game much more gelling them into a team. To replace Clovis now with a new TD from Argentina, England or wherever would be a disaster.
People are forgetting that Clovis did not get hired over Kempes. Lazaroni did. If you were the JFF president and you had to choose between Laza and Kempes there could only be one choice. Clovis came in as the default coach when Laza quitted.
We were pressed for time and he already had first hand knowledge of the players. The argument that a big name is best because you can get good practice games is weak. Nudge yourself. If you want a coach look at peoples coaching record and select the best one. If you want a celebrity go to Hollywood.
I even hear people say we need to get a coach from England. Well if it is a nontraditional English coach maybe but if it is the old type, no. They couldn’t even find one good English coach to coach England and they have one of, if not the best league in the world. If they are coming with the kick and rush sky ball system tell them to stay away.
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#1441 - 08/18/01 08:02 AM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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jahbilly
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Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 346
Loc: usa
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At least someone on this forum understand the Jamaican situation. Thank you Topnotch.
Please explain why it doesn't really matter who we practice against locally.
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#1442 - 08/18/01 11:49 AM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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morefire1
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Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1087
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Topnotch you're a god send bredren.I could not have said it any better.This is the post of the month for August.Big up!!!
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#1443 - 08/18/01 02:48 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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brush
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 2267
Loc: Grayson, GA
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Good post 'Notch'.
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#1444 - 08/18/01 03:15 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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jt
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Registered: 02/16/01
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Its funny coz I agree with U topnotch.
There is no point changing Clovis. But I say so bcoz its the JFF that are holding him back I believe.
I agree that Jamaica may not cope with a change as effectively as other teams do, but moreso bcoz whenever there is a power change in Jamaica, all the parasites and back biters come out.As they did with Simoes,Laza and Clovis. And I suppose that is the only thing Burrell has truly achieved. He has managed to keep the mongrels quiet by appointing TD's. Unfortunately the appointed TD's dont have skills fi deal wid mongrels. And we all should know when yu walk pon streets in Ja. only one dog hafi bark and the rest pon charge.
I do believe a coach with contacts is a bonus but not necessary, but I will re-iterate Jahbilly's question. Explain why it does not matter who we practice against.
What we need is a total revamp from the top. I would say give clovis a fair chance. Get rid of his supporting staff and put some serious coaches. Invite all to challenge for a squad spot and start preparing for 2006. All we can do about our now 4 spot position in the qualifiers is go all out. Just go for broke.We can still do it,but we have to start being more attack minded and forget about the cautious approach.We dont have nothing to lose. As Beres Hammond say...SHOW IT OFF.......
Ohhhh... then morefire... All that Topnotch has posted...If U agree why do you find it so hard to express the same things.. Instead U always prefer to be offensive and abusive. Think more positive and U could of written what Topnotch posted.Then you could of had the post for August.
Jagga...That sounds like a good idea... The post for the month.Not that we have any prizes.
_________________________
They make the world so hard
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#1445 - 08/18/01 03:18 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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jt
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Registered: 02/16/01
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My advice to Clovis D'Oliveira. GET YOURSELF ONE OF THOSE NEW GAMES. ITS CALLED PROZONE. Computer game that shows players positioning and movement. It will help with your strategies and tactics.
_________________________
They make the world so hard
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#1446 - 08/18/01 04:26 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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jah b_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
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That's the thing I respect about you TopNotch, you have made a lot of our arguments look silly but you did it in a very dignified and precise manner. I totally see your points and tend to agree with you on most of them. I still feel that we ought to move in another direction but I would be willing to wait it out with this TD.
Morefire, like JT said, had you laid out your points like Topnotch, we could have had a more civil discussion on the topic.
Peace
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#1447 - 08/18/01 04:42 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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Double B_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 3793
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Tonotch:
I see your point and it makes perfect sense if we were only in this thing to qualify for the worldcup in Japan. Unfortunately we have longterm dreams of becoming a great football country.
It is time we Jamaicans break away from this mentality of giving people in authority the impression like they are in office for life so they can do whatever they like. I am not calling for his resignation but we have to put some heat on him. If he is still not performing we should get rid of him.
Our football programme is not just about world cup 2002 in Japan. We have to think about the long term development and who is best suited to lead us into the distant future.
I therefore cannot agree with this statement that you made:
Tonotch says:
I think his performance has been average but at this stage we have to soldier on in this campaign with him and hope he gets it together. It’s still possible. We will have to rise or fall with Clovis because all the cards are already on the table. We have no ace to play now.
I personally think that his performance has been below average. We should not have been struggling like this at this stage of the qualifier. He inherited a very decent team. All he needed to do was plan his strategies for each opponent, ensure that his tactical plan is carried out, motivate the players and ensure that he has the best 11 players on the field all the times.
He didn't have to rebuilt from scratch like Rene.
In my opinion he failed miserable where this is concerned.
He made a lot of bad blunders which is why we are in this current situation. He made a complete fool of himself when he fired the 5 UB-40 players and then tried to beg them to come back.
Tonotch, are you telling me that we do not have any other coach in Jamaica who can take over the team for the rest of the qualifier while we focus on getting a good long term TD. What if Clovis drop dead..God forbid...
I honestly believe that at the rate of how Clovis is going right now, I don't think any other coach (Jamaican or not)can do any worse.
That's my take....
[This message has been edited by Double B (edited 08-18-2001).]
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#1448 - 08/18/01 06:16 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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Geoff
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 884
Loc: Spanish Town, Jamaica
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Don't misrepresent the coach like that bredrin...
He fired the english guys for a good reason that time, and he didn't "beg" them to come back either. Burton was back in qucik time, and Simpson and Sinclair came back eventually.
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#1449 - 08/18/01 07:06 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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jahbilly
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Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 346
Loc: usa
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Jt, stay a foreign. Thats my advice to you.
You ah Hinglish man now.
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#1450 - 08/18/01 08:00 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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Topnotch
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Registered: 03/18/01
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Jt and JahBilly there is a slight misunderstanding. I was not saying who we play our practice games against doesn’t matter. To the contrary I have been very much on the side of those asking for good quality games whether it’s for the big team or the B team. I was just trying to put down the argument that you choose a big name former player because his fame will get you good practice games. If you are looking a coach, you should look on the experience and record of the candidates and choose the best available. The best coach will make the biggest impact on the performance of your team and inturn you will get good practice games because other teams will want to play a quality opponent.
Double B the call that is prominent on this board is for Clovis to be replaced right now and I didn’t get the impression they were calling for a local TD. The sentiment is for another foreigner to take over. I can tell you wrongly or rightly the local coaches are not thought of very highly on this board. So my argument was that at this stage (2 weeks before Mexico) to replace Clovis with someone new wouldn’t be wise. I am all for the long-term development of Jamaican football but if you analyze the Jamaican scenario a lot depends on us qualifying for the World Cup. If we don’t, it sets us back tremendously. It will hurt the most in the area of public interest in the football and in generating sponsors for the programs. Right now I think the probability of us getting there with this TD must be better than getting a new foreigner who doesn’t know the players. With the focus being on the WC, I would have to say we should soldier on with Clovis. I am not a supporter of his team formation and some of his player positioning and I regularly criticize some of his sayings but I think it wouldn’t be wise to replace him now. There is still hope he can get it together.
[This message has been edited by Topnotch (edited 08-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Topnotch (edited 08-18-2001).]
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#1451 - 08/18/01 08:06 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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saltman
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Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 2051
Loc: Miami, FL, USA
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Topnotch, i guess you are refering to me upon the lastest calling for the immediate clovis ax... Although I would love this I have repeatedly said that the Kempes issue is what I think to be a past mistake and i hope we can snag him in the future, after the unavoidable firing of Clovis after 02..Also yes it was brought to my attention that the direct fight for TD was between Lazaroni and Kempes i apologize for the heading that may have been somewhat mis leading to the ites. BUT, the fact remains that Kempes was still available after Lazaroni's departure...
How can you ask to go easy on the TD when he clearly doen not garnish respect from his players and he has us playin parish elevens as our major warmups to WCQs i'm sure even the biggest Clovis fan has to see a lot wrong with his program so far...Because no matter what you say about JFF, Clovis is the TD, and it is ultimately his program and he holds the msjor responsibility however unfair for the programs' success. I think a stronger leader such as Simones was and what i think Kempes is because of his earned respect, would not put up with the JFF if they are indeed to problem, and alow his image to be tarnished. I f it was Simones still or Kempes now and they were forced to play parish 11's by the JFF's mis-management (hopefully that is why and not Clovis directly only being able to play these matches as his main ones) Anyway that these coaches would stand up for THEIR program, by publicly speaking or simply walking out as Laza did. If it is that Clovis is indeed being 'bullied' by JFF policies or he is simply downgrading the program on his own by these rediculous warmups and lack of development; Which ever way you look at it he is not a strong respected coach and therefore not the coach for the Boyz. Even if we do miraculously make it to Japan/Korea I'm sure most Boyz fans will still call for a change after 2002.
Peace....good post topnotch
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#1452 - 08/19/01 05:46 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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zouse
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Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 2149
Loc: Jamaica
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Originally posted by Double B:
Tonotch, are you telling me that we do not have any other coach in Jamaica who can take over the team for the rest of the qualifier while we focus on getting a good long term TD. What if Clovis drop dead..God forbid...
I honestly believe that at the rate of how Clovis is going right now, I don't think any other coach (Jamaican or not)can do any worse.
This perception is wrong. We have already tried tested and proven the worth of local coaches on the national team. It will take a herculean effort from the Jff and the local coaches to hoist themselves up the professional ladder. Carl brown and Paul young are a classic example. Furthermore, it goes without saying when you look at the performance of Clovis vs a local with the u20, or, Simoes vs a local with the u23. I still say Clovis is working with what he has.
Originally posted by saltman:
How can you ask to go easy on the TD when he clearly doen not garnish respect from his
players and he has us playin parish elevens as our major warmups to WCQs i'm sure even the biggest Clovis fan has to see a lot wrong with his program so far...
This is also total rubbish!
I'd like someone to tell me what's wrong with playing parish 11s, because it seems this is the latest crime. In case everyone has forgotten, Simoes also played a lot of parish 11 matches. The difference with Simoes's time was that Simoes needed to build a team, a quality team, in a hurry so he went directly to England for players. Simoes had no time for parish matches. Now, Clovis dosent need to be looking to build a team, the team is already there with the major players ACTIVELY engaged in professional leagues all over the world. Clovis, with 10 professional players already in his pockets, is now looking to further pick the cream of the crop from the local database.
Clovis does not have the respect of the players indeed! I must be going to the wrong practices, watching the wrong matches, or living on the wrong rharse island.
Saltman, i was hoping you would have come around by now, but you're still a football fool! You have no facts whatsoever..
Keep it up, i'm here for you.
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#1453 - 08/19/01 06:55 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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mobydick
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Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 1831
Loc: Toronto,Ontario, Canada
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Zouse...Saltman's limitations goes much futher than a lack of facts....
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Life is a journey, not a destination
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#1454 - 08/19/01 10:51 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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saltman
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Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 2051
Loc: Miami, FL, USA
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i guess unno never see dat me extend the peace treatie.....
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#1455 - 08/20/01 12:05 AM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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Shatta_Cleve
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Registered: 04/26/01
Posts: 4293
Loc: Inglewood CA
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Simoes also demanded top quality competition and played top quality teams
Simoes also had a plan just take a look to what he has in store with Trinidad.
The failure of Clovis and the team right now is the failure of the JFF plain and simple.
The fact that the players are in England are no excuse not to have at least 8 quality games a year.
NO team and no country should go 9 months without playing quality football and that is what we did and now we are paying the piper.
They are no shortcuts to heaven or the world cup for that matter.
We shouldn't have been rushing at the last minute to build chemistry. What did we learn from Simoes? How long did it take the team of 98 to gell properly? We have gone from being a nation of "I can" people to a nation of excuse makers as we have an excuse at the ready for everything.
Planning and preparation is lacking plain and simple and sacking Clovis won't solve anything right now. You don't cut corners and expect to get quality, you have to spend to make money.
Top notch I agree with you but I must say that Clovis is not the problem right now the adminstration is.
They need a board of directors right now
respect
_________________________
Leggo the Pearl!!! do me a beg unnu just leggo the Pearl
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#1456 - 08/20/01 01:09 AM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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morefire1
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Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1087
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Originally posted by jt:
Its funny coz I agree with U topnotch.
There is no point changing Clovis. But I say so bcoz its the JFF that are holding him back I believe.
I agree that Jamaica may not cope with a change as effectively as other teams do, but moreso bcoz whenever there is a power change in Jamaica, all the parasites and back biters come out.As they did with Simoes,Laza and Clovis. And I suppose that is the only thing Burrell has truly achieved. He has managed to keep the mongrels quiet by appointing TD's. Unfortunately the appointed TD's dont have skills fi deal wid mongrels. And we all should know when yu walk pon streets in Ja. only one dog hafi bark and the rest pon charge.
I do believe a coach with contacts is a bonus but not necessary, but I will re-iterate Jahbilly's question. Explain why it does not matter who we practice against.
What we need is a total revamp from the top. I would say give clovis a fair chance. Get rid of his supporting staff and put some serious coaches. Invite all to challenge for a squad spot and start preparing for 2006. All we can do about our now 4 spot position in the qualifiers is go all out. Just go for broke.We can still do it,but we have to start being more attack minded and forget about the cautious approach.We dont have nothing to lose. As Beres Hammond say...SHOW IT OFF.......
Ohhhh... then morefire... All that Topnotch has posted...If U agree why do you find it so hard to express the same things.. Instead U always prefer to be offensive and abusive. Think more positive and U could of written what Topnotch posted.Then you could of had the post for August
Jagga...That sounds lik a good idea... The post for the month.Not that we have any prizes.
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#1457 - 08/20/01 09:49 AM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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zouse
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Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 2149
Loc: Jamaica
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So we've already failed then Shatta?
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#1458 - 08/20/01 12:30 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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Shatta_Cleve
Member
Registered: 04/26/01
Posts: 4293
Loc: Inglewood CA
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The team has failed to do the little things that maybe they would have done if they had been given more time to gell
Have we failed?
Failed in what, what is our goal? Is it to make the world cup every 4 years by whatever means neccessary or is it to develop the domestic football?
respect
_________________________
Leggo the Pearl!!! do me a beg unnu just leggo the Pearl
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#1459 - 08/20/01 06:45 PM
Re: Go easy on the TD
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zouse
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Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 2149
Loc: Jamaica
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I'd want to think our immediate goal right now is to qualify for the WC Shatta.
But i could't say it's over until the fat lady sings....
So failed already? No
Furthermore, i wouldn't bank on the time and gell thing. Croatia in WC 98 proved that there are more important things to football than time and gell.
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