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#146982 - 12/29/09 02:52 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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So all those BC and those who never heard of him will be saved retroactively?
And we can continue sinning because Jesus (PBUH) died for us and it requires no other action on our part but just to believe that?
bwoy, yuh head tuff eeeeeeee.
Go back go read again.
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#147033 - 12/30/09 06:01 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Tman
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Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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I guess you cant explain it any better, but since it is your own made-up doctrine I didnt expect any better.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#147043 - 12/30/09 06:46 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
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Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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I guess you cant explain it any better, but since it is your own made-up doctrine I didnt expect any better.
I can't be any clearer than that.
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#147152 - 01/02/10 01:48 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Tman
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Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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Why, you cant find the cut and paste answer?
Come on man, think for yourself for once.
Explain it in your own words.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#147166 - 01/02/10 11:43 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Why, you cant find the cut and paste answer?
Come on man, think for yourself for once.
Explain it in your own words.
What I am trying to say is:
I don't know how to put understanding into your tuff head.
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#147171 - 01/03/10 06:55 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Marklon
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Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 367
Loc: nj-bergen-usa
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Mr cut and paste go back and read my post not cut and paste, actual facts.
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#147172 - 01/03/10 07:02 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Marklon
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Noel read the book of Revelation , Jesus seen coming in the clouds at the head of ten thousand and he will be seen with a sword dripping with blood, and dont get spooky because that is not your Jesus of 2000 years ago, that one been dead.
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#147173 - 01/03/10 07:08 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Marklon
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Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 367
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And how about God sending Saul to a city and telling him to kill every thing, animal, children,men women and dont take anything, Saul took women and other booty, and the prophet Samuel asking Saul why he did not obey God, ence the words "Obidience is the best form of sacrifice".
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#147177 - 01/03/10 10:41 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Tman
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Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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Me quote Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords and Noel says it was "spiritual swords". That is the kind of "interlect" we dealing with here. Him caan even explain hid doctrine if him caan find the cut and paste.
Noel: look up "Nicea 325" that is where your doctrine was decided by a committee vote under the command of the Roman emperor.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#147199 - 01/03/10 10:58 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Me quote Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords and Noel says it was "spiritual swords". That is the kind of "interlect" we dealing with here. Him caan even explain hid doctrine if him caan find the cut and paste.
Noel: look up "Nicea 325" that is where your doctrine was decided by a committee vote under the command of the Roman emperor.
Tman, I already told you that when it pertains to religion you're very smart, but when it comes on to the spiritual you are a dead man walking, living in the valley of dry bones.
Did Jesus endorse and encourage violence in the Gospels, presumably a righteous kind of violence? Did he call his original disciples to this? Did he order all of his disciples to buy swords, really? One verse may indicate that he did.
And Luke 22:36 reads:
36 [Jesus] said to [the disciples], "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag; and the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one." (New Revised Standard Version, NRSV)
Cited in isolation, the verse suggests that swords and violence are a possibility. It seems as if all of the disciples should go out and buy one each. After the death and burial of Jesus, they would have to face the world alone without him, so they thought.
However, what happens to the apparent meaning of the verse when it is not read in isolation, but in context? Did Jesus really wield a sword and want all of the disciples to buy one each?
Exegesis of Luke 22:36
The historical context of Luke 22:36 demonstrates that for three years Jesus avoided making a public, triumphal entry of his visits to Jerusalem because he understood that when he set foot in the holy city in this way, he would fulfill his mission to die, in a death that looked like one of a common criminal, just as Isaiah the prophet had predicted hundreds of years before (Is. 53:12). He needed to complete his work outside of Jerusalem.
Now, however, Jesus finally enters the city famous for killing her prophets (Luke 13:33-34), a few days before his arrest, trial and crucifixion, all of which he predicted. Religious leaders were spying on him and asked him trick questions, so they could incriminate him (Luke 20:20). These insincere questions, though they were also asked before he entered the city, increased in frequency during these compacted tense days. But he answered impressively, avoiding their traps. Despite the tension, each day Jesus taught in the temple, and crowds gathered around him, so the authorities could not arrest him, for fear of the people. Then Judas volunteered to betray him, saying that he would report back to the authorities when no crowd was present (Luke 22:1-6).
As Passover drew near, Jesus asked some of his disciples to prepare the Last Supper (most likely the Seder). He elevated the bread and the wine, representing his body and blood, which was broken and shed for the sins of the world in the New Covenant (Luke 22:17-20). However, during the meal, Judas slipped out to search for the authorities because he knew that it was the custom of Jesus to go to the Mount of Olives to pray (Luke 21:37), and that night would be no different.
At this point we pick up the textual context of Luke 22:36 (bold print). He is eating the Last Supper on the night he was betrayed.
Luke 22:35-38 says:
35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)
The textual context reveals at least two truths. First, Jesus contrasts his ministry before his arrival in Jerusalem with the tense few days in Jerusalem when spies and the authorities themselves were seeking to trap him. Does the tension play a part in understanding why he told his disciples to go out and buy swords? This is answered, below. Second, he says that he would be arrested and tried as a criminal, as the prophecy in Is. 53:12 predicted. Does this have anything to do with swords? Do criminals carry them around? This too is explained, below. Jesus may have a deeper meaning in mind than the violent use of the swords. What is it?
The interpretation of the verses can follow either a strictly physical direction in which swords must be used, or a nonphysical one in which swords must not be used, during Jesus’ last hours. The surest and clearest direction is the nonliteral one, but first we analyze why the literal one will not fit into Luke 22:34-38 and into the passage about the arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:39-53).
Violent use of the swords
Jesus says to the disciples to buy swords, but when they show him two, Jesus says the two are enough. The first direction, the literal one, is inadequate for two reasons.
First, the obvious question is: two swords are enough for what? Are they enough for a physical fight to resist arrest? This is hardly the case because during Jesus’ arrest a disciple (Peter according to John 18:10) took out his sword and cut off the ear of the servant (Malchus according to John 18:10) of the high priest. Jesus sternly tells Peter to put away his sword, "No more of this!" and then he heals the servant, restoring his ear (Luke 22:49-51). Resisting arrest cannot be the purpose of the two swords.
Second, were the two swords enough for an armed rebellion to resist the authorities and to impose the new Jesus movement in a political and military way? Jesus denounces this purpose in Luke 22:52, as the authorities are in the process of arresting him: "Am I leading a rebellion that you have come with swords and clubs?" The answer is no, as he is seized and led away (v. 54).
So the physical interpretation of Luke 22:36 (the two swords were intended to be used) will not work in the larger context. Two swords are not enough to resist arrest, to pull off a revolt of some kind, or to fully protect themselves in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The contextual meaning of the swords
In contrast to the literal interpretation of using swords physically, the following interpretation works smoothly in context so that all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.
First, Jesus reminds the disciples of his mission for them before he arrived in Jerusalem (Luke 9:3; 10:1-17). Did they need a purse, a bag, or extra sandals? No, because people were friendlier, and their opposition to him was spread out over three years. Now, however, he is in Jerusalem, and he has undergone the compacted antagonism of religious leaders seeking to trap him with self-incriminating words. When the authorities are not present, they send their spies. The atmosphere is therefore tense, and the two swords—no more than that—represent the tension. Jesus’ mission has shifted to a clear danger, and the disciples must beware. However, he certainly did not intend for his disciples to use the swords, as we just saw in the literal interpretation, above, for he is about to tell Peter to put away his sword.
Second, "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).
The third and final nonliteral interpretation says that Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is possibly true of the two swords. This interpretation of clarification is supported by Matt. 10:34: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. Matt. 10:34, in context he does not mean a physical sword that cuts up and bloodies the family, but a spiritual and moral one that may divide it up nonphysically. And it is precisely Luke who clarifies Jesus’ meaning of "sword" as nonliteral, in the two parallel passages of Matt. 10:34 and Luke 12:51. If Luke does this in 12:51, then why would he not shift slightly the meaning of "sword" in 22:36-38?
Early Christian history
The foregoing interpretation of the nonphysical use of swords does not say that the two swords did not exist (Luke 22:38). They are not symbols, nor were they imaginary or invisible. Peter really did cut off the ear of the servant of the high priest with one of them (Matt. 26:50-51; Luke 22:49-51).
However, Peter’s use of the sword is done before the formal birth of the Church at Pentecost, when he will be filled with the Spirit in an unprecedented way (Acts 2). It would be misguided to build church doctrine on such a reaction in the heat of the moment, during Jesus’ arrest at night, before Pentecost.
On the other hand, Jesus said to Peter in the Garden, "Put your sword back in its place," meaning, back in its scabbard or holder or in Peter’s belt or another article of clothing. He never said to throw the sword away, off to the side at a distance. Therefore, it is entirely possible that some disciples carried the two weapons after the crucifixion and burial when they lived in hostile territory, and maybe some did after the Resurrection and Ascension.
However, later reliable tradition says that none of the Apostles fought or even tried to fight their way out of fiery trials with swords, as some sort of misguided, twisted, violent martyrs. Instead, tradition says that all of the Apostles but John were martyred as a direct result of persecution (John died from natural causes in old age). Evidently, the example of Jesus throughout his life and in the Garden of Gethsemane made an impression on them.
Though part of this is an argument from silence (drawing conclusions from what a text or history does not say), it is a significant silence of the historical records that speaks volumes. The events in the Garden of Gethsemane and the commands of Jesus there teach the Apostles nonaggression, so Luke 22:36 does not permit violence. He said to Peter: "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matt. 26:52). Peter and the others heard those words that clarify the use of swords. Therefore, a lifestyle of the sword must not be part of the disciples’ new walk with the resurrected Christ, as they preached his message of hope.
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#147208 - 01/04/10 01:29 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Tman
Member
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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All these words: the verse suggests, the apparent meaning of the verse, the interpretation of the verses, the literal interpretation, nonliteral interpretation, reliable tradition, an argument from silence, shows your doctrine is based on conjecture and has no sound foundation.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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