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Noel: You seem to be more familiar with Greek and Hebrew that your native tongue. I’ve tried explaining to you that “We and Us” used in this context is the Royal we used by kings and sovereigns, even Barak used it the other day. It does not mean that more than one person is present when the speaker is talking and that is no proof of the trinity. Why did God also use “I” when He talks other places? What happen to the other two then? Like: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shall have no other God but me.” The first Commandment. He did not say “We” on this occasion and many more examples I could point out. It’s just a figure of speech, get over it. As for the Paraclete, I posted a whole missive on it above. MAIN POINTS for you to answer: Paraclete cant be the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit was already present on many occasions and it would not be worth a whole prophecy to say he was coming again. 1) GREEK: In these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (pbuh) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (pbuh), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.
It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.
All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.
What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.
John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".
Is this just knit picking? "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit," what's the big deal? Obviously they both refer to the same thing. Right? Wrong! There is a big difference. A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"
1 John 4:1-3:
(also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.
We have already exhibited many documented cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded). It is, therefore, possible that either:
1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or
2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.
Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done it's utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery (see chapter 7). For this reason, it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (pbuh).
2) DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT "SPEAK" OR "INSPIRE" as the verse says?
3) ANOTHER" PARACLETE Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (pbuh), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" {al'-los}: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" {het'-er-os}.
4) HE SHALL GLORIFY ME
The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this. Just one of the many examples of this is:
"And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."
The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):40.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: You seem to be more familiar with Greek and Hebrew that your native tongue. I’ve tried explaining to you that “We and Us” used in this context is the Royal we used by kings and sovereigns, even Barak used it the other day. It does not mean that more than one person is present when the speaker is talking and that is no proof of the trinity.
Tman, if you think that you and this ediotic explanation can even past the laugh test, you are Delusional. The three persons who make up the single being God-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-are called the Trinity. The word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible. Scholars created it to describe the three beings who make up God, who are also referred to as “members of the Godhead.” Throughout the Bible, God is presented as being Father, Son, and Spirit-not three “gods” but three personas of the one and only God (see, for example, Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 16:23-24; 2 Corinthians 13:13). The Scriptures present the Father as the source of creation, the giver of life, and God of all the universe (see John 5:26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:14-15). The Son is depicted more as the image of the invisible God, the exact representation of his being and nature, and the Messiah-Redeemer (see Philippians 2:5-6; Colossians 1:14-16; Hebrews 1:1-3). The Spirit is God in action, God reaching people-influencing them, changing them from inside, filling them, and guiding them (see John 14:26; 15:26; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18). All three (tri-) are a tri-unity, living in one another and working together to accomplish their divine plan for the universe (see John 16:13-15).
Why did God also use “I” when He talks other places? What happen to the other two then? Like: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shall have no other God but me.” The first Commandment. He did not say “We” on this occasion and many more examples I could point out. It’s just a figure of speech, get over it. As for the Paraclete, I posted a whole missive on it above. MAIN POINTS for you to answer: Paraclete cant be the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit was already present on many occasions and it would not be worth a whole prophecy to say he was coming again. 1) GREEK: In these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (pbuh) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (pbuh), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.
It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.
All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.
What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.
John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".
Is this just knit picking? "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit," what's the big deal? Obviously they both refer to the same thing. Right? Wrong! There is a big difference. A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"
1 John 4:1-3:
(also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.
We have already exhibited many documented cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded). It is, therefore, possible that either:
1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or
2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.
Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done it's utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery (see chapter 7). For this reason, it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (pbuh).
2) DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT "SPEAK" OR "INSPIRE" as the verse says?
3) ANOTHER" PARACLETE Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (pbuh), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" {al'-los}: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" {het'-er-os}.
4) HE SHALL GLORIFY ME
The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this. Just one of the many examples of this is:
"And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: You seem to be more familiar with Greek and Hebrew that your native tongue. I’ve tried explaining to you that “We and Us” used in this context is the Royal we used by kings and sovereigns, even Barak used it the other day. It does not mean that more than one person is present when the speaker is talking and that is no proof of the trinity.
Tman, if you think that you and this ediotic explanation can even past the laugh test, you are Delusional. The three persons who make up the single being God-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-are called the Trinity. The word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible. Scholars created it to describe the three beings who make up God, who are also referred to as “members of the Godhead.” Throughout the Bible, God is presented as being Father, Son, and Spirit-not three “gods” but three personas of the one and only God (see, for example, Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 16:23-24; 2 Corinthians 13:13). The Scriptures present the Father as the source of creation, the giver of life, and God of all the universe (see John 5:26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:14-15). The Son is depicted more as the image of the invisible God, the exact representation of his being and nature, and the Messiah-Redeemer (see Philippians 2:5-6; Colossians 1:14-16; Hebrews 1:1-3). The Spirit is God in action, God reaching people-influencing them, changing them from inside, filling them, and guiding them (see John 14:26; 15:26; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18). All three (tri-) are a tri-unity, living in one another and working together to accomplish their divine plan for the universe (see John 16:13-15).
Why did God also use “I” when He talks other places? What happen to the other two then? Like: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shall have no other God but me.” The first Commandment. He did not say “We” on this occasion and many more examples I could point out. It’s just a figure of speech, get over it. As for the Paraclete, I posted a whole missive on it above. MAIN POINTS for you to answer: Paraclete cant be the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit was already present on many occasions and it would not be worth a whole prophecy to say he was coming again. 1) GREEK: In these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (pbuh) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (pbuh), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.
It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.
All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.
What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.
John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".
Is this just knit picking? "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit," what's the big deal? Obviously they both refer to the same thing. Right? Wrong! There is a big difference. A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"
1 John 4:1-3:
(also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.
We have already exhibited many documented cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded). It is, therefore, possible that either:
1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or
2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.
Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done it's utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery (see chapter 7). For this reason, it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (pbuh).
2) DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT "SPEAK" OR "INSPIRE" as the verse says?
3) ANOTHER" PARACLETE Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (pbuh), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" {al'-los}: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" {het'-er-os}.
4) HE SHALL GLORIFY ME
The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this. Just one of the many
examples of this is:"And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."
The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):40.
Lets go a little deeper for the viewers.
Over 1400 years ago, Muhammad (Mohammed) was born in Arabia. His father Abdullah was of the tribe of Qureyshi, and died before Muhammad was born.
As a lad, Muhammad traveled to Syria with his uncle on merchant caravans. Years later, he made the same journey while working for a wealthy widow named Khadijah. He later married her and, even though he was 15 years younger than she was, they had a good marriage.
Muhammad soon gained rank among the notables of Mecca. The Meccans claimed to be descendants of Abraham (Ibrahim).
As one who abhorred evil, Muhammad detested those who disobeyed the Scriptures. He was familiar with the teachings of the Jewish and Christian holy book the Bible (perhaps in reading it himself, if he was literate, or in learning of it through oral means via storytelling). He was very upset with the hypocrisy among the people: the idol worship, and anything dishonoring to God was very revolting to Him. He believed that Allah had revealed the Torah and the gospels (the Injil).
"ALLAH is HE besides Whom there is none worthy of worship, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. HE has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and HE has sent down the Torah (Law of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guidance to the people; and HE has sent down the Discrimination (judgement between right and wrong)."—Qur'an, Surah 3:3-4 One who was greatly respected by Muhammad was Abraham (Ibrahim), whom he called an upright and righteous man.
"Abraham was indeed a paragon of virtue, obedient to ALLAH, ever inclined to HIM, and he was not of those who set up equals with ALLAH; Ever grateful for HIS favours: HE chose him and guided him to a straight path. And WE bestowed on him good in this world, and in the Hereafter he will surely be among the righteous. And now WE have sent revelation to thee, enjoining, 'Follow the way of Abraham who was ever inclined to ALLAH and was not of those who set up equals to HIM.'"—Qur'an, Surah 16:121-124 Abraham was also looked upon as one who fulfilled God's commands:
"And remember when his Lord tried Abraham with certain commandments which he fulfilled, HE said, 'I will make thee a leader of men.' Abraham asked, 'And from among my offspring?' God said, 'MY covenant does not embrace the transgressors.'"—Qur'an, Surah 2:125 Muhammad also had great understanding of the scriptures and faith in the angels who told Zechariah he would have a son (as in Luke 1:18, 57-60).
"So her Lord accepted her with gracious acceptance and caused her to grow an excellent growth and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah visited her in the chamber, he found with her provisions. He said, 'O Mary whence hast thou this ?' She replied, 'It is from ALLAH.' Surely ALLAH gives to whomsoever HE pleases without measure. Then and there did Zachariah pray to his Lord, saying, 'My Lord grant me from Thyself pure offspring; surely thou art the Hearer of Prayer.'
And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the chamber, 'ALLAH gives thee glad tidings of Yahya, who shall testify to the truth of a word from ALLAH - noble and chaste and a Prophet, from among the righteous.
He said 'My Lord, how shall I have a son, when old age has overtaken me already, and my wife is barren?' He answered, 'Such is the way of ALLAH; HE does what HE pleases,'
He said 'My Lord, give me a commandment.' He replied, 'The commandment for thee is that thou shalt not speak to men for three days except by signs.
And remember thy Lord much and glorify HIM in the evening and in the early morning.' And remember when the angels said, 'ALLAH has chosen thee and purified thee and chosen thee above all women of the time.
'O Mary, be obedient to thy Lord and prostrate thyself and worship the one God with those who worship HIM.'
This is of the tidings of things unseen which WE reveal to thee. And thou was not with them when they cast their arrows, as to which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor was thou with them when they disputed with one another.
When the angels said, 'O Mary, ALLAH gives thee glad tidings of a son through a word from HIM; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
'And he shall speak to the people in the cradle, and when of middle age, and he shall be of the righteous.
She said, 'My Lord, how shall I have a son, when no man has touched me? He said, 'Such is the way of ALLAH. HE creates what HE pleases. When HE decrees a thing HE says to it 'Be,' and it is;"—Qur'an, Surah 3:38-48
Muhammad also speaks of the resurrection of Jesus:
"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."—Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35 In calling Jesus a messenger, Muhammad was also correct. He did not mean that Jesus was not the Messiah. Muhammad knew that one could be a messenger and not be a Messiah… but as The Messiah, one is also a messenger.
Jesus was both a messenger and The Messiah that Allah had promised! What is a Messiah? A Messiah is always known as "a Saviour… a liberator and a deliverer." God had promised to send one (Messiah) to pay the debt of sin for all mankind.
The Messiah!… God's gift to sinful man… The Saviour… The Liberator… Our Redeemer. The prophets of the Torah foretold of His coming. Muhammad and his Disciples revered Him… the Qur'an and the Bible reveal Him! The Messiah… The Saviour of the world! Neither the Qur'an nor the Bible speak of any other as being the Messiah!!!
Dear friend, that is the most profound truth! And it is truth that cannot be denied. Jesus is the one and only Messiah. He is the Saviour. He is the Messiah of the Muslims, the Jews, and the Gentiles. Millions throughout the world of every nation and creed accept Him as Saviour.
Many have followed false Messiahs and had their lives ended in death. They were sincere, but they were sincerely wrong. Had they only accepted the indisputable claim that Jesus is the Messiah, they would have found the peace that they were looking for, and the eternal life that God has promised to all who will accept Jesus as Messiah… the Saviour of the world. Yes, Isah Al Masih loves you! The Messiah that Muhammad wrote about… to forgive you and to be your Saviour… your Liberator… your Deliverer from sin. History tells us that He was crucified and died on a cross. History tells us that three days later there was an empty tomb. History, and hundreds of eye witnesses, tell us that He rose from the dead. But sadly many also reject the love and forgiveness God has offered in Jesus.
Allah has given you a free will. YOU must make a choice. You cannot be neutral.
Don't take this writer's word for it. Investigate for yourself the claims of Muhammad, the prophecies in the Torah, and the life of Jesus written in the Bible. The prophecies that were fulfilled by His birth, life, death and resurrection.
Check out the reasons why Paul, the greatest persecutor of Jesus' followers, became such a strong believer in Jesus as the Messiah… and why he became the world's greatest missionary.
If you are not already a follower of Isah (Jesus), you must make a choice 1) to believe that Jesus is the Messiah OR 2) to reject Him as Saviour. You can choose to believe the Messiah, Jesus, who said He would, and did, rise from the dead. Allah gave Jesus, born miraculously through Mary (Maryam, Sura 3:45) as Muhammed agreed, to the world… for you.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."—John 3:16 ("Son of God" does not mean that God had physical relations with Mary, but rather that God willed it supernaturally that Mary would become the earthly mother of Jesus even as a virgin. See Surah 3:47-48)
Allah loves you. How could anyone want to reject such a wonderful love… reject Allah's forgiveness… His promises of eternal life? The Bible teaches how we can know where we will spend eternity.
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Here is the dictionary meaning of Mes⋅si⋅ah: 1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people. 2. (note Jewish people) 3. < LL (Vulgate) Messīās < Gk Messās < Heb māshīaḥ lit., anointed. You are using what it has come to mean in English, not what it means when it was originally written. Another case of Paulinity and transliteration.
The only One who can save you on the Last day is God Himself.
Since you have slipped answering the questions above about Paraclete I take it you have conceeded those points.
You like to quote the Qur’an too, so here are a few you might have missed:
4.171: O People of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Qur'an says plainly he was a messenger,like all the other messengers before him.
4.157: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
4.158: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
5.017: In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
5.072: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5.075: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
5.116 : And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
19.029: But she (Mary) pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 19.030: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 19.031: "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 19.032: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 19.033: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! 19.034: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19.035: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 19.036: Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. 19.037: But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! 19.038: How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest! 19.039: But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe! 19.040: It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.
Notice too the use of We and Us and the verses above we saying there is no trinity. Its just the “Royal we”, and English figure of speech.
All of us will be ressurrected on the day of judgment, not just Jesus (PBUH). PS: please don't claim for Muhammad(PBUH) what he did nor claim to believe himself. If you knew his life and his beliefs you would know he worshiped ONE God, and reverred Jesus (PBUH) as all Muslims do as only a messenger.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Here is the dictionary meaning of Mes⋅si⋅ah: 1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people. 2. (note Jewish people) 3. < LL (Vulgate) Messīās < Gk Messās < Heb māshīaḥ lit., anointed. You are using what it has come to mean in English, not what it means when it was originally written. Another case of Paulinity and transliteration.
The only One who can save you on the Last day is God Himself.
Since you have slipped answering the questions above about Paraclete I take it you have conceeded those points.
You like to quote the Qur’an too, so here are a few you might have missed:
4.171: O People of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Qur'an says plainly he was a messenger,like all the other messengers before him.
4.157: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
4.158: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
5.017: In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
5.072: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5.075: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
5.116 : And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
19.029: But she (Mary) pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 19.030: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 19.031: "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 19.032: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 19.033: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! 19.034: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19.035: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 19.036: Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. 19.037: But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! 19.038: How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest! 19.039: But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe! 19.040: It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.
Notice too the use of We and Us and the verses above we saying there is no trinity. Its just the “Royal we”, and English figure of speech.
All of us will be ressurrected on the day of judgment, not just Jesus (PBUH). PS: please don't claim for Muhammad(PBUH) what he did nor claim to believe himself.
If you knew his life and his beliefs you would know he worshiped ONE God, and reverred Jesus (PBUH) as all Muslims do as only a messenger.
Tman, we all worship one God, there is only one God. JESUS PROCLAIMED HIMSELF AS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD. This is one of the most basic and important passages in Scripture. How can we know the way to God? Only through Jesus. Jesus is the way because he is both God and man. By uniting our life with his, we are united with God. Trust Jesus to take you to the Father, and all the benefits of being God’s child will be yours. BIBLE READING: John 11:17-44 KEY BIBLE VERSE: Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again.” (John 11:25) JESUS PROCLAIMED AND PROVED THAT HE HAD POWER OVER DEATH. Jesus has power over life and death as well as power to forgive sins. This is because he is the Creator of life (see John 14:6). He who is life can surely restore life. Whoever believes in Christ has a spiritual life that death cannot conquer or diminish in any way. When we realize his power and how wonderful his offer to us really is, how can we help but commit our life to him! To those of us who believe, what wonderful assurance and certainty we have: “I will live again, and you will, too” (14:19).
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Mr Slipery: You stop answer the questions and just repeating the same old quotes. That tells us something. If we only come to God through Jesus(PBUH) what about all those people before the time of Jesus (PBUH), are they going to Hell? And Jesus (PBUH) himself declared "I do nothing except through the father?" What kind of god is that who needs help and can do nothing himself and who don't know when the Day of Judgment is? I don't expect an answer, just another quote. This one is for the other Ites to contemplate. We Muslims believe in one God, no son, no mother, no trinity. The all-powerful, all-knowing, all-merciful, the Master of the Day of Judgment.
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[quote=Tman]Mr Slipery: You stop answer the questions and just repeating the same old quotes.
That tells us something. If we only come to God through Jesus(PBUH) what about all those people before the time of Jesus (PBUH), are they going to Hell?
Tman, now that if very slippery, you asked a question and now you are afraid to hear the answer, you're even begging me not to give you an answer, but you should know that you will get an answer. Did the Bible say that Jesus came to set captives free? This is what happen to the people before the time of Jesus Christ. Let us first explore what Matt 27:50-53 is telling us about this event: "And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
And Jesus (PBUH) himself declared "I do nothing except through the father?" What kind of god is that who needs help and can do nothing himself and who don't know when the Day of Judgment is?
Good question Tman, here is the answer:
Like us, Jesus had a finite human spirit. Finite meaning it was dependent on God. Though Jesus was fully God, while a man on earth He humbled Himself and did not draw upon his divinity once in any capacity during His 33 ½ years on earth. How far did Jesus take this. The Apostle Paul tells us in Philippians 2:6-8,
"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
How far did He take it? To the point of being as fully vulnerable as any other man to the evil acts of man. To what extent? To the extent that we were able to kill Him and He did not draw upon his divinity to resist or stop it.
As a man He was completely dependent on God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Like any other human being, Jesus looked to God the Father through His human spirit for His needs. When dealing with men the Bible does not say that Jesus read men’s minds which He was able to do through His deity, but rather that He perceived by the Holy Spirit through His human spirit what was going on around Him (Mark 2:8). Jesus’ Divinity knows all men’s thoughts all the time, but Jesus’ human spirit required the inspiration and quickening of God the Holy Spirit through His spirit to discern circumstances that He encountered.
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Noel: even by your own quote it says "many holy people" not ALL the people who were on the earth before Jesus (PBUH) came. The other answer is Pauline jibberish mixed up with Roman and pagan doctrine. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
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[quote=Tman]Noel: even by your own quote it says "many holy people" not ALL the people who were on the earth before Jesus (PBUH) came.
Tman, Jesus said it best and I can't say it any better. "If you don't believe that I am Him the you shall surely die in your sins" -------------------------------------------------------------- No bullet can stop us now, we neither beg nor we won't bow; Neither can be bought nor sold. We all defend the right; Jah - Jah children must unite: Your life is worth much more than gold. We're jammin' (jammin', jammin', jammin') And we're jammin' in the name of the Lord.
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Answer this Mr Slippery: Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? "I feel like bombing a church, now that I know the precher is lying"
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"I feel like bombing a church, now that I know the precher is lying" [/quote]
Tman, are we talking about suicide bombing here? I expected that from Marklon who sounds more like an extreme fundamentalist, I thought you were a moderate, but now you're using church and bombing in the same sentence. Anyway, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just a copy cat that's playing even steven, meaning that, because I quoted Bob, you feel a need to quote him as well, but if I were you as a Muslim I would not use any sentences that contains the word bomb or bombing, loose lips sinks ships.
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[quote=Tman]Answer this Mr Slippery: Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Number 23:19 says, "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Tman, this seems to be in stark contrast to the idea of an incarnation wherein God became a man (John 1:1, 14). If it could be said that God was not a man, or the son of man, how do we understand the idea of Jesus being the incarnate God, and His use of the title "Son of Man?" Tman, whenever one verse of Scripture seems to contradict other Scriptures it is always wise to look at that particular verse in its context. The three most important rules of hermeneutics are as follows: 1. Context 2. Context 3. Context!!! The context of this passage is Balak's hiring of Balaam to curse the children of Israel. Although Balaam attempted to curse the Israelites God forbid him, and commanded him to bless them instead. After doing so, Balak was upset at his actions. As a result Balaam went back to God to try to get God to allow him to curse the Israelites. God still refused. Numbers 23:19 is part of Balaam's speech to Balak concerning the Lord's answer. He said that God is not a man that He should lie, or the Son of Man that He should change His mind. God had spoken what He had spoken, and that was the end of the story. Balaam was told to bless the Israelites, and He did. Now that He had blessed them, and subsequently God had blessed them, there was no reversing the blessing.
We could argue this verse in two ways. The first argument would say that it is true that God was not a man, or the son of man at this point in time. He only became a man later in the incarnation. I do not believe that this is the point of this verse, and thus the explanation, although it is true, is exegetically lacking.
I believe a better explanation can be found by examining Balaam's point in making such a statement. Was he making a prohibition against God ever being incarnated in the person of Christ? I do not believe so. Balaam's point is that God is not like men. Men are known for lying, unfaithfulness, and not keeping their word. God on the other hand, never lies and has no need of changing His mind. When He decides to bless a people, they are blessed. God will not change His mind and curse them immediately after blessing them. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29). Only a man, who can be swayed by others, power, and money could be so fickle, but not God. He is holy and trustworthy.
We can now say that God is a man, and the son of man; however, He is not like all other men in that He has no sin, but is holy like God. What Balaam was referring to is men's sinfulness, and their resultant fickleness. God is not like fallen men. This does not preclude God from ever becoming a man, but only forbids that God should ever become like fallen men, being untrustworthy, lying, or failing to keep His word.
To deny that God can become a man is to deny that Jesus is of the essence of the Father, or that Jesus is divine, and even the idea of an incarnation at all. If Jesus is not the essence of the Father, then we are left with the doctrine of Arianism which sees Jesus as a lesser deity than the Father, or Ditheism (belief in two Gods), both of which are heresy and do not affirm the monotheism of the Scripture. According to YHWH, there is no other God besides Him (Deuteronomy 4:35; Isaiah 45:5, 21). He did not mean that there is no other God equal to Him, but that no other divine being exists! With this teaching we are forced to conclude that Jesus is either YHWH incarnated in the flesh, or Jesus is a mere man. Such a position is biblically untenable, and such an exegesis of Numbers 23:19 leads to a logically absurd position for one who still wishes to hold a theistic view of Jesus Christ, no matter how minimal it may be. If a divine being cannot become a man, then the idea of an incarnation is impossible.
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Are you trying to impress with obscure words: Arianism, Ditheism, monotheism,exegesis,theistic. Put down the text book and come and let us reason. We know God can do all things, include becoming a man, but why would God NEED to become a man? He sends His angles and prophets to do His work and by His will alone He can make anything happen by just saying "Be" and it is. Islam teaches we are born without sin, as Adam and Ever were forgiven, so we don't need anyone to die on a cross to redeem us. Jesus (PBUH) was one in the long line of prophets and did not claim divinity for himself, nor being part of any trinity. This was forced upon the Believers after the Council of Nicea in the 3rd century by the Roman church after a vote taken by the leaders. Can someone vote to make a person into a divnie being? Sure you can, just like how the RC can vote to delist some "saints" centuries after people been praying to them. "I am come to the lost sheep of the children of Israel and not to the Gentiles" – Jesus (PBUH).
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You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are for ever opposing the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors used to do. Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, and now you have become his betrayers and murderers. You are the ones that received the law as ordained by angels, and yet you have not kept it.’ When they heard these things, they became enraged and ground their teeth at Stephen. But filled with the Holy Spirit, he gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!’ But they covered their ears, and with a loud shout all rushed together against him. Stop covering your ears Tman, go learn the scriptures then you will understand the power of God. --------------------------------------------------------------- One love, one heart Let's get together and feel all right As it was in the beginning (One love) So shall it be in the end (One heart) Alright, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right." "Let's get together and feel all right." One more thing
Let's get together to fight this Holy Armageddon (One love) So when the Man comes there will be no, no doom (One song) Have pity on those whose chances grow thinner There ain't no hiding place from the Father of Creation.
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From the Bible to Bob when you run out of answers. "Bombing a church" is a metaphor, an English figure of speech like the Royal "WE", but you did not understand that either. Please explain: These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Jesus (PBUH) was a messenger to Israel. Paul the Roman expanded the brief to include Gentiles.
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I can see that you have been also brain washed by Badawi's "Radio Al-Islam Channel RA 200". I will just put this out there and let everyone decide for themselves.
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Responses to Jamal Badawi's "Radio Al-Islam Channel RA 200" "Jesus in the Qur'an - Mission"
Introduction
In this segment, Dr. Badawi will argue that Jesus was sent as a Prophet to the Jews and that Muhammad was sent as a Prophet for the entire world. He will quote several Bible passages out of context and ignore many interesting passages in the Qur'an in his quest to make his point. He will then attempt to clarify what happened to Jesus, however, when we refer to the Qur'an on this subject, we find that the story does not make sense.
Jamal Badawi: Christian sources Dr A.B. Bruce said that in Luke, Jesus is called Lord about 12 times, but in earlier Mark and Matthew he is just Jesus, showing the evolution of his divinity. The Christian Science Monitor in June 7, 1978 says that debate over the divinity of Jesus has erupted sending theologians looking for explanations sent off by a book called the Myth of God Incarnate, Church people called for discarding the creeds of Jesus' divinity and Trinity. Well Dr. Badawi, please tell Dr. A. B. Bruce that Jesus is called Lord, or calls Himself Lord, 11 times in the Gospel of Mark and 24 times in the Gospel according to Matthew! Perhaps Dr. Badawi should spend a little more time actually reading the Bible instead of, like Muhammad, gathering information from heretical sources. The "Jesus Myth" theory carries very little credence these days, even in agnostic and atheist circles. Incidentally Dr. Badawi, if you believe in the arguments of the authors of the Myth of God Incarnate, then the Jesus of the Bible and the Qur'an are both myths.
Host: What does the Qur'an say about the mission of Jesus? Jamal Badawi: It is in the Bible if we are unbiased. The Qur'an says that the mission of Jesus exclusively for the children of Israel Sura 3:49: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; Sura 61:6:
And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" Sura 5:49:
And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious. The New Testament also attests to this fact.
To be "unbiased", we must accept Badawi's position! However, this is not what either the Qur'an or the Bible says. If, according to the Qur'an, Jesus was sent only to the Children of Israel, how do you explain Sura 19:21?
And (it will be) that we may make of him (Jesus) a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained. Host: Show us. Jamal Badawi: Matthew 15:24:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Matthew 10:5-6:
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. He was sent as an Israelite Prophet and this is also in Matthew 19:28. One can say that there is no evidence in the synoptics where Jesus says that his message is universal and that he was sent for all human beings. This is different then what Paul claimed, that they were to preach to all people, this developed later on. This does not mean that his teachings are not relevant to other peoples, ethics are ethics, but his mission was not the final universal messenger, that was Muhammad.
Jesus did, in fact, heal as well as teach Gentiles. The mission of Jesus was first to the Children of Israel and then to the rest of humanity. For example, the Prophet Isaiah tells us:
And now the Lord says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength - he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth." (Isaiah 49:5,6) Dr. Badawi claims "there is no evidence in the synoptics where Jesus says that his message is universal". I would ask him to explain Matthew 28:18-19:
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...." Once again, Dr. Badawi demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the Bible.
Host: What does the Qur'an say about the essence of Jesus' mission? Jamal Badawi: Like all other Prophets, his message was to invite people to worship God. Sura 3:50:
"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. He was to confirm what was intact of the Torah and make lawful part of what was forbidden, he relieved them of this punishment. Sura 61:6 is peculiar that it says that a Prophet was to come after him. In Mark 12:29 we find something interesting, it is similar to the Qur'an:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. As I said in an earlier segment, I do not look to the Qur'an to learn about Jesus, I would much rather read the testimonies, in the Bible, of those who followed Him.
Host: What about the miracles of Jesus? Jamal Badawi: The virgin birth was one. Sura 3:49:
"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; The question that the Qur'an does not answer is: why did Jesus and the Prophets of God perform miracles? God gave His Prophets this power, and the gift of prophecy (accurately foretelling future events) as proof to us that these people were from God and were delivering His message. These gifts are the means by which we separate the Prophets of God from false Prophets - who cannot show us either gift.
A second point is that the Qur'an passage cited above was borrowed from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas the Israelite, which says in Chapter 2:
"This child, Jesus, having become five years old, was playing at the crossing of a brook, and He had collected together into pools the running waters and was making them clean forthwith, and with a single word did He command then'. And having made some clay fine, He formed out of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when He did these things. There were, however, many other children also playing with Him. But a certain Jew, having seen what Jesus was doing, that He was playing on the Sabbath day, went away immediately and told His father Joseph, 'Lo! thy child is at the brook, and having taken clay He hath formed twelve little birds out of it, and He hath profaned the Sabbath.' And Joseph, having come to the spot and having seen, cried out to Him, saying, 'Why dost Thou on the Sabbath do these things which it is not lawful to do?' But Jesus, having clapped His hands together, cried out to the sparrows and said to them, 'Go!' And the sparrows, having taken flight, departed twittering. But the Jews, having seen this, were astounded; and having gone away they related to their chief men what they saw that Jesus did." Christians have always regarded these stories as legends, but Muhammad attempted to pass them off as the Words of God!
Host: Does the Qur'an say anything about Jesus being given a divine book? Jamal Badawi: The Qur'an talks about specific books, the Psalm, leaves of Abraham, the Torah, and the Injeel or Gospel. When the Qur'an talks about the Injeel, it is on 12 occasions in 6 different chapters in which God gave Jesus the Injeel. When the Qur'an talks about it, it is in the context of other holy books, this is a specific book. Christians regard the Bible as biography, not something that was revealed to Jesus. I have come across some references on the synoptic problem, where they trace sources, some say that there was a Gospel Q which was used as a separate Gospel from which others were written, there is an issue of the canonized Gospels which occurred in the 4th century and the others were burned. Maybe Jesus had a book.
Well, if Jesus had a book, then where is it? If God sent Him with a book, what happened to the message, if we assume that the Bible is not His message? Did Jesus fail in His Prophetic mission or was it impossible for an All Powerful All Knowing God to protect His Words? This argument simply does not make sense!
Host: Is there any evidence in the New Testament to the Prophethood of Jesus? Jamal Badawi: Plenty. He, and his followers, saw himself as a servant and prophet Luke 13:33-34 :
In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem! "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! John 8:40:
As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. He admits that he heard from God.
Luke 7:16:
They were all filled with awe and praised God. "A great prophet has appeared among us," they said. "God has come to help his people." Christians believe that Jesus was a Prophet as well as the Incarnate Word of God. There is no conflict between these two titles.
Host: What about the end of his mission in the Qur'an? Jamal Badawi: There are so many sects which disputed whether Jesus or Judas was nailed to the cross. Sura 4:156-on:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- The Qur'an is very clear.
How clear is this passage? Why would the Jews "boast" that they killed the Messenger of God? Think about it for a minute. The Jewish followers of Jesus did not kill him. In fact, they were horrified when he was put to death. The Jewish enemies of Jesus were certainly happy to have Him out of their way, but they would never have called him the Messiah or a "Messenger" of God since they viewed such statements as blasphemy! To make matters worse, God's "illusion" convinced Christ's followers, as well as His enemies, that He had been crucified. So, if the Qur'an is true [which I do not believe to be the case], then God's "illusion" actually deprived the followers of Jesus, both then and now, of any chance of salvation. How could God be so dishonest, by tricking the followers of Jesus, and so cruel, since [according to the Qur'an] those who believe in the divinity of Jesus will be punished? Once again, the Qur'an's account makes no sense.
Host: Could you be more specific about raising? Jamal Badawi: The word says that God raised him unto himself. We stick to the term raising, it appear three ways in the Qur'an. One is in body and soul, the Qur'an also talks about the taking away of the soul and the body is left behind. In one verse muttafikwa can mean causing you to dies or completing your message. The Qur'an says that every soul will taste death. It can also mean lifting of status. The Qur'an does not tell us in a conclusive sense how he was raised. It does not make any difference to the Muslim if he died.
Host: What about Christ's second return?
Jamal Badawi: There is nothing in the Qur'an, but there are some Prophetic traditions that talk about the second coming, he will not come as a judge or God to rule, he will come as a follower of Islam. He will come to break the cross and kill the pig. He will fight the false the anti-Christ with the Muslims.
I find it amazing that the Qur'an, which Dr. Badawi tells us is the final and complete Word of God, omits so much information concerning the fate of Jesus and His Second Coming. Sura 4 only gives insults and threats to those who believe the Biblical account of the crucifixion of Jesus and offers absolutely no proof or counter-argument to strengthen the Qur'an's claims that He did not die on the cross. If the Qur'an is the Word of God, then why did God spend so much space in the Qur'an solving Muhammad's marital problems and cursing Muhammad's uncle, instead of giving evidence to correct the erroneous beliefs [according to the Qur'an] of billions of Christians who believe that Christ died on the cross?
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“I can see that you have been also brain washed by Badawi's "Radio Al-Islam Channel RA 200". I have never heard of this person, who seems to be lacking in Islamic knowledge, and take my teaching only from qualified Islamic scholars, the Qura’an and the sunnah. It’s not everyone with an Arabic sounding name who is qualified to talk about Islam.
“Sura 19:21? And (it will be) that we may make of him (Jesus) a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.” Jesus (PBUH) was a Revelation and a mercy like the other 27 prophets mention in the Qur’an, some of whom are not even mentioned in the Bible.
“A second point is that the Qur'an passage cited above was borrowed from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas the Israelite, which says in Chapter 2” Where is your proof that this was “borrowed” from the Gospel of Thomas. The Bible was not translated into Arabic until many centuries after Muhammad (PBUH) or are you claiming he could read Greek or Aramaic when he could neither read nor write his own language?
All prophets performed miracles and the miracle of Muhammad (PBUH) is the Qur’an, free from error and containing scientific Truths written in the 7th century which could not be known then and are only being proven in modern times.
“God's "illusion" actually deprived the followers of Jesus, both then and now, of any chance of salvation.” God’s “illusion” did not deprive anyone of anything as salvation is not dependent on Jesus’ (PBUH) dying on the cross.
So Jesus (PBUH) according to the Bible was sent “only” to the lost sheep of Israel, then to “all” nations? Which one should we believe, because they are mutually exclusive? Another “distortion” “misunderstood” or “scribal error”? Are you questioning how God chooses to Reveal His message? The fate of Jesus(PBUH) is of no more significance that any other prophets whose fate is mentioned in a few words or not at all. What God spends time on in the Qur'an, like Muhammad's (PBUH) problems are practical lessons for people of all ages to learn proper conduct. You see, Islam is not just a "faith" its a way of life and the Qur'an also contains lessons that apply to one's daily life.
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
