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Tman, we already agreed that there is only one God. The Holy Bible, which is the inspired Word of God that never has been nor ever will be changed, testifies that there is only one God. It is a well-known fact that the Bible is the oldest book in existence. Thus, if any other book is found that testifies that God is one, the Bible has preceded it in asserting this fact. The following are some quotations from the Bible concerning the fact that God is one.
From the Old Testament:
"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above, and on the earth beneath: there is no other." (Deuteronomy 4:39 NKJV) "I am the LORD, and there is no other, there is no God beside Me." (Isaiah 45:5) "Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10) "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the LORD is one! You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) From the New Testament:
"It is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’" (Matthew 4:10) "There is one God; and there is no other but He." (Mark 12:32) "You believe that there is one God; you do well." (James 2:19) "Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one." (Galatians 3:20) "For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men." (1 Timothy 2:5) THE MEANING OF GOD'S ONENESS
It is obvious that God's oneness differs from man's oneness. Man's oneness makes him limited. Thus it is not possible for one man to be in two places at the same time. But God can be on His throne in heaven and, at the same time, be here on this earth. This is neither impossible nor difficult for God. And we do not mean that part of Him is in heaven while the other part is on the earth. We mean that God, in all His glory, can be on His throne in heaven and at the same time be here on this earth.
This is exactly what happened when Christ came to this earth. The Bible states clearly that in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). This is what we call the Incarnation. We have heard of great men and kings who wore poor people's clothes and went to visit the poor in their homes without taking servants with them in order not to frighten the poor, and in order to see their needs and to help them. We admire such great men, and praise them for their humility and nobility. The greater the person, the greater is his nobility in humbling himself.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Come now Noel, when you have no answer you resort to quote you learned by rote. Here are the exact words of Jesus (PBUH) as taken from the Bible. lets hear some reasonable explanation and not another quote. Jesus, says: "And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 Explain "YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD".
Another "son of God"?
Melchizedek, A god greater than Jesus?
Tman, Melchizedek was a mysterious biblical personality whose name means “king of righteousness.” The historical record about this priest-king is contained in Genesis 14:18-20. He is spoken of in Psalm 110:4 and Hebrews 5:10; 6:20; 7:1-17. IN GENESIS 14:18-20 Kedorlaomer, the king of Elam, along with three other Mesopotamian kings, raided a confederacy of five kings near the shores of the Dead Sea. In the ensuing massacre and victory by the Mesopotamian alliance, Abraham’s nephew Lot and his family and possessions were captured (Genesis 14:1-12). Abraham led an attacking force in pursuit of Lot’s captors, achieved victory over Kedorlaomer, retrieved the plunder, and secured the release of Lot and his family (Genesis 14:13-16). Upon his return, Abraham was greeted not only by the grateful kings of the Dead Sea confederacy but also by Melchizedek, king of Salem. Melchizedek gave Abraham bread and wine along with his blessing as “priest of the most high God” (El Elyon) (Genesis 14:18). Salem is Jerusalem (compare with Psalm 76:2). The term for most high God used here, El Elyon, is not the pagan god of Canaan called by that same name. El Elyon refers rather to the title of the true God who created heaven and earth-an idea that was foreign to Canaanite religion (compare Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 47:2; 47:2; 47:2). Melchizedek correctly viewed Abraham as worshiping this same God (Genesis 14:22) and praised God for giving victory to Abraham. Abraham identified himself with the worship of the one true God by receiving Melchizedek’s gifts and blessing and also giving him a tenth of everything. This showed that Abraham recognized Melchizedek’s higher spiritual rank as a patriarchal priest. In contrast, Abraham disassociated himself from Canaanite polytheism-the worship of many gods-by declining gifts from the king of Sodom. It is interesting to speculate whether Melchizedek’s knowledge of the true God was received by tradition from the past ages closer to the time of the Flood, or whether he, like Abraham, had been uprooted from pagan beliefs to monotheism-belief in one true God-by direct divine revelation. It is at least clear from Hebrews 7:3 that his priesthood was isolated and not received through a priestly lineage as the priests and Levites in Israel. IN PSALM 110:4 In this messianic psalm (one that foretells the Messiah), David envisioned one greater than himself whom he called “Lord” (Psalm 110:4 ; compare Mark 12:35-37). Thus the perfect messianic king was not an idealization of the present ruler but someone who was yet to come. Also, he was to be not merely a man but more than this. The Messiah would be the Son of God as well as the son of David. The divine prophecy of Psalm 110:4 is addressed to the Messiah: “You are a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek.” The significance of this statement is left for the inspired author of the letter to the Hebrews to develop. IN HEBREWS 5:6-11; HEBREWS 6:20-7:28 The argument of the writer of the letter to the Hebrews is that the human priesthood of Aaron has been superseded by the superior priesthood of Christ, and that the superiority of Christ’s priesthood is demonstrated by its likeness to Melchizedek’s character. First, both Christ and Melchizedek are kings of righteousness and kings of peace (Hebrews 7:1-2). Second, both have a unique priesthood that does not depend on family pedigree (Hebrews 7:3). Third, both exist as priests forever (Hebrews 7:3). Melchizedek was superior to Abraham, the father of Levi, because Melchizedek gave gifts to and blessed Abraham, and received tithes from him (Hebrews 7:4-10). David predicted that the priesthood of Melchizedek would be greater than the priesthood of the Levites, showing the imperfection of the latter (Hebrews 7:11-19). The Melchizedekian priesthood of the Messiah was confirmed by a divine oath, which was not true of the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 7:20-22). In addition, the Melchizedekian priesthood had an unchangeable and permanent character (Hebrews 7:23-25). Certain scholars have thought that Melchizedek was an appearance of Christ in the Old Testament (technically called a Christophany). They argue this on the basis of Hebrews 7:3, which says that there is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors-no beginning or end to his life. However, this statement is simply to be understood in the sense that his priesthood was not connected to any priestly family line. Melchizedek had a priestly office by special divine appointment, and was thus a type, or picture, of that which was to come-Jesus Christ in his priesthood. The writer of Hebrews says that Melchizedek was one “resembling the Son of God” (Hebrews 7:3). This clearly indicates that he was not himself the Son of God.
In the Bible we can read about another god. His name is Melchizedek (or Melchisedec). He is first mentioned in Genesis
"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
Genesis 14:18-20
This in itself may not be all that significant until we read Hebrews
"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils."
Hebrews 7:1-4
Is this God's brother? Is this God's cousin? Is this a completely different God? For these are certainly divine attributes. According to the Bible in our hands today, Jesus (pbuh) had a beginning (he was "begotten"), and an end "he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46). This mighty being, however, is alleged to have had neither. It is stated plainly here in the Bible, that he was "made like unto the son of God." Why do they not worship him then? The church now will allege that Jesus peace be upon him was "begotten" by God. Tell us what you mean when you say "begotten." What did God Almighty do to "beget" Jesus (pbuh)? Further, if Jesus (pbuh) was "begotten," but Melchisedec who was "made like unto the Son of God," was not, then does this not make Jesus (pbuh) a "son of God" but Melchisedec an independent god with neither offspring nor parents? Is a god with no parents not greater than one who needs parents? Where is Melchisedec now?
From these verses we get the following picture:
1. Melchizedec is equal to the Son of God 2. Melchizedec's ministry is eternal 3. Melchizedec, unlike Jesus (pbuh), is an independent god, with neither father nor mother. 4. Melchizedec, unlike Jesus (pbuh), was never "born" or "begotten" but was ever present. 5. Melchizedec, unlike Jesus (pbuh), will never die but is eternally without death. 6. Everything but God has a beginning of days. Even air, water, and food have a beginning of days. Melchizedec, however, does not. Therefore, he is claimed to not need God nor water, food, nor air to breathe.
Does this not sound preposterous? Notice how when Jesus (pbuh), a man, is preached as being a god most people have no trouble with that. They are willing to see proof of his godhead even where it can not be found (see chapter one). This is because this is a well established doctrine in Paul's church. However, when the same Bible tells them in no uncertain terms that another man, Melchisedec, is a god, then they are willing to "interpret" the verses fifty different ways and attach to them all manner of abstract interpretations to disprove this claim since Melchisedec "cannot possibly" be a god. Why? Because the church has not told us to worship Melchizedec?. If the Bible remains the word of God then why should we place the words of men (the church) above the words of God?
Another thing for you to explain: Who was "Immanuel"?
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God is with us)."
Isaiah 7:14
Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe in Jesus (pbuh) as a true and faithful prophet of God. For this reason, Muslims have no trouble believing that prophets of the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus (pbuh). However, as we have already seen in chapter two, over the ages mankind continued to feel the need to embroider and improve upon the word of God. This was not restricted to merely inserting, deleting, or changing words as seen in previous chapters, rather, they even went so far as to try to "prove" their innovations through the citation of other ancient passages. There are many examples of this. One such example shall be studied here.
When members of the clergy read to their flock the verse of Isaiah 7:14, they then go on to explain to them: "Do you see? Prophet Isaiah prophesied the coming of the God Himself. Immanuel means 'God is with us,' so this is not only a prophesy of the coming of God but also a prophesy of the 'incarnation' of God Almighty in the form of Jesus".
It is true, Immanuel does mean "God is with us." However, this is a prime example of how the evangelists manage to constantly base their arguments on catch words or phrases and then quickly gloss over the details.
The phrase "a virgin" which we find in our English Bibles does not appear in the original Hebrew text. The word used is 'almah {al-maw'} meaning "a young woman of marriageable age". The Hebrew word for "virgin" is bthuwlah {beth-oo-law'}. When the Hebrew text is translated into Greek in the NT, it uses the word parthenos {per-then'-os}, which has a dual meaning; a young girl or a virgin. The translators have mistakenly chosen the latter. More recent and accurate versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version present this verse as follows:
"Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Isaiah 7:14 (RSV)
Biblical scholars have suggested that this prophesy was concerning the second son or possibly the third son of Isaiah by a Jewish maiden. It does not relate to Jesus or his virgin birth.
If Jesus (pbuh) was indeed intended by this prophesy, then why was he named "Jesus" and not "Immanuel" as the prophesy requires? Notice that the prophesy states that "his NAME shall be Immanuel." It does not say that "HE shall be Immanuel." There is a big difference between saying "His name shall be 'God is with us'" and between saying "He shall be God with us."
"Immanuel" is not the only name in the OT that contains the word "El" (God). There are hundreds of Hebrew names that consist of "El" and another noun. For example, "Ishmael" which means "God hears." Did God's sense of hearing come down to earth and live among us in the form of a man? Was God's sense of hearing "incarnated" in the form of a man?. There is also "Israel" (prince of God), and "Elijah" (my God is Jehovah), and so forth. As we can see, it was a very common occurrence for Israelites to have such names. Neither prophet Isaiah, nor King Ahaz, nor any Jew ever thought that the prophesy was for God himself to come down and live among them.
In Genesis 28:19 we read "And he called the name of that place Bethel (house of God)". Since the place was named "house of God," does this mean that God lived inside this house?
In Genesis 32:30, we are told that Jacob (pbuh) called a piece of land "Peni-el" (Face of God). The actual text states: "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel," is this the same as saying: "And Jacob said this place is Peniel"? Was the patch of land the actual face of God? Was the face of God "incarnated" in this piece of land?
Gabriel, the name of the angle of God, has been interpreted in Biblical references as having the general meaning of "Strength of God." So, does this mean that the angle Gabriel is the "incarnation" of the "strength of God"?
"The name Immanuel could mean 'God be with us' in the sense 'God help us!'"
Interpreter's dictionary of the Bible, V2, p. 686.
Jesus (pbuh) was given his name by the angel Gabriel even before his birth (Matthew 1:21). Never was he named "Immanuel." King Ahaz was in danger. His enemies were closing in. This is when a promise was made to show him a sign, a pregnant woman, not a virgin Mary (pbuh) who would not show up until many centuries after he had turned to dust. Can we see how the Trinitarian doctrine of incarnation was forced upon the message of Jesus (pbuh) through "bending" of the prophesies and general glossing over of the "trivial details"?
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Ducky: still waiting on your views on: Jesus, says: "And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 Explain "YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD". And Immanuel form the above
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Ducky: still waiting on your views on: Jesus, says: "And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 Explain "YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD". And Immanuel form the above
So, my yute, why didn't you quote the entire passage? Ok I will do it for you and also explain it for you. John 17:1-5 - Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you; even as you gave him authority over all flesh, he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him. This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ. I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do. Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed." Tman, This passage begins one of the most amazing parts of the Bible. We get to hear a conversation between the Son and the Father. If you were wondering where Jesus refers to Himself as the Messiah, here is one of the places. Notice that He says, "him whom you sent, Jesus Christ." "Christ" is not a last name. It is a Jewish title and "Christ" is an English translation of the Greek translation of the Hebrew. The word in Hebrew is: "Messiah." So, we see here, that Jesus did refer to Himself as the Hebrew Messiah. Some don't believe that Jesus referred to Himself in this way, but it is clearly said here in Jesus' prayer. Jesus does mention that He is the Messiah many times in His many "figures of speech" as well. We also find out here that "eternal life" is defined as knowing the Father and the Son. It really is who you know that keeps you from going to Hell. Notice also that Jesus says that the Father is "the only true God." Here we see that the God of the Jews is the only God there is according to the Bible. Some people claim that going to a specific church makes you a part of Jesus. In reality, it is only by knowing God personally that you can make it to Heaven and be a part of Jesus. There is only one way to really know God and that is for God to give you to Jesus as we read here. If you want to know Him, it is clear that He has giving you to Jesus because the Bible says "whoever believes in Him" will be saved. Paul says later that we only know Jesus in part, but someday we will know completely. Now as if that wasn't enough, Jesus also says that He existed in glory with the Father "before the world existed." That means that He is God because in the beginning, God created everything from nothing being the only one who always existed. Jesus, in His prayer, refers to His own deity.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Ducky: still waiting on your views on: Jesus, says: "And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 Explain "YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD".
And Immanuel form the above
Immanuel is a Hebrew male name that means “God with us.” It appears only twice in the Old Testament (Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 8:8) and once in the New Testament (Matthew 1:23) (some translations have “Emmanuel”). In the Old Testament the name was given to a child born in the time of Ahaz. This child’s birth was a sign to the king that Judah would no longer be attacked by Israel and Syria; God would be “with Judah” by protecting them. In the Old Testament, a baby is born whose name means “God with us.” In the New Testament, a baby is born whose entire life means “God with us;” the Old Testament Immanuel is a prophecy of the birth of Christ, the Messiah, as shown in the Gospel of Matthew.
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Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a Latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau. Messiah in Hebrew means annoited and Jesus (PBUH) was not the only annoited person in the Bible. The child in Isaiah was NAMED Emmanuel, Jesus was never NAMED Emmanuel.We have gone over this already. Emmanuel can also mean God help us. SO according to you in one place Emmanuel means "God is with Judah or God help Judah", but in another place it means God comes down to earth in the person of Jesus. You are applying a selective meaning to what you believe. Your explanation of "You the only true God" does not wash. "You" does not mean "me" Jesus. Jesus was not talking to himself, but to God. ONLY means ONE. So what Jesus (PBUH) was saying is that God is the ONE true God. Not two, God and Jesus and not three as in trinity. He called himself the "son" and there are many other called son of god in the Bible, so it is not unique to Jesus. "Whom you have sent", so Jesus sent himself? and when Jesus (PBUH) prayed to God did he pray to himself? Simple explanation please, not more quoting from Paul, the Roman.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a Latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau. Messiah in Hebrew means annoited and Jesus (PBUH) was not the only annoited person in the Bible. The child in Isaiah was NAMED Emmanuel, Jesus was never NAMED Emmanuel.We have gone over this already. Emmanuel can also mean God help us. SO according to you in one place Emmanuel means "God is with Judah or God help Judah", but in another place it means God comes down to earth in the person of Jesus. You are applying a selective meaning to what you believe. Your explanation of "You the only true God" does not wash. "You" does not mean "me" Jesus. Jesus was not talking to himself, but to God. ONLY means ONE. So what Jesus (PBUH) was saying is that God is the ONE true God. Not two, God and Jesus and not three as in trinity. He called himself the "son" and there are many other called son of god in the Bible, so it is not unique to Jesus. "Whom you have sent", so Jesus sent himself? and when Jesus (PBUH) prayed to God did he pray to himself? Simple explanation please, not more quoting from Paul, the Roman.
Tman, I love it when you asked questions it tells me that you're seeking the truth, keeping seeking the truth my friend it shall set you free. Jesus was both God and man. Although this union is sometimes referred to as God-man, this term may be misleading, for it may lead some people to think of Him as a demigod. On the other hand, it is equally incorrect to refer to Him as a anointed man. Although quantitatively God cannot be confined to a body, qualitatively he could reside in a body. Neither was Jesus a part-human, but he was man in the full sense. He was fully God and fully man. He possessed both the nature of God and the nature of man. He was aware that He was. He was God and that He was man. He could and did speak and act as a man, and he could and did speak and act as God. As a man, he did not know the day or hour when the Son would come in power and glory (Mark 13:22); as God he forgave sins. Both His humanity and deity, although fused into His one being, remained distinct within His one personality. Admittedly, the Incarnation is a mystery beyond the comprehension of the human mind. You asked did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray, for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man, Jesus prayed to God, not to his humanity (7). He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. No further explanation is given, and none is needed. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7). The work of the mediation was finished through His death on the cross at Calvary (Hebrews 9:14-15). There is no more sacrifice for sins, for once and for all time. His blood was shed for the remission of sins (Hebrews 10:12). Unlike the Old Testament priests, he does not continually offer sacrifices for sins. There is no more offering, but there remains remission of sins for those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:18, Acts 2:38). His present role as intercessor consists not only of daily prayers but the application of the benefit of the cross to our lives (Romans 8:34; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:1-2). Jesus said, "At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again I leave the world and go to the Father" (John 16:26-28). Jesus does not pray now, but as God He hears and answers prayers prayed in His name. Tman, To understand Jesus as God on earth praying to His Father in heaven, you need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took upon Himself the form of a man. Please read John 5:19-27, particularly verse 23 where Jesus teaches that the Father sent the Son (also see John 15:10). Jesus did not become the Son of God when He was born in Bethlehem. He has always been the Son of God from eternity past, still is the Son of God, and always will be. Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Son was given and the Child was born. Jesus was always part of the tri-unity, along with the Holy Spirit. The tri-unity always existed, the Father God, the Son God, and the Spirit God, not three gods, but one God existing as three persons. Jesus taught that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), meaning that He and His Father are of the same substance and the same essence. The Father, Son and Spirit are three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had, and continue to have, an eternal relationship.
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Noel, I also enjoyed reasoning with you as it shows you are also seeking the Truth.I also hope others who read this will also be lead to the Truth. I see you have swallowed the whole line, hook and sinker and when you cant find the answer you fall back on: "Admittedly, the Incarnation is a mystery beyond the comprehension of the human mind". That is why I choose Islam; no mystery that cant be explained and you're not told to "accept it on faith". Genisis 1:1 is clear "In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth." No Jesus, (PBUH) no Holy Spirit. Just The ONE. There is still hope for you and I leave you with the words of the one Clear Book: Qur'an 3.199 "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you (Muhammad (PBUH), and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account."
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel, I also enjoyed reasoning with you as it shows you are also seeking the Truth.I also hope others who read this will also be lead to the Truth. I see you have swallowed the whole line, hook and sinker and when you cant find the answer you fall back on: "Admittedly, the Incarnation is a mystery beyond the comprehension of the human mind". That is why I choose Islam; no mystery that cant be explained and you're not told to "accept it on faith". Genisis 1:1 is clear "In the beginning GOD created the heavens
and the earth." No Jesus, (PBUH) no Holy Spirit. Just The ONE.
Ok Mr Tman, when God said: "Let us make man in our own image" who were the us and the our that God was talking to?
There is still hope for you and I leave you with the words of the one Clear Book: Qur'an 3.199 "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you (Muhammad (PBUH), and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account."
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Noel: "Ok Mr Tman, when God said: "Let us make man in our own image" who were the us and the our that God was talking to?" That is the weakest argument you could use. Come on man, you can do better that that, I'm disappointed. "Us" and "we" when certain people are talking, like the queen and the president, is called the Royal plural, and does not mean more that one person is talking. This is first form stuff. "F" grade. Can do better. Now here is another "test" and I expected you to do better.remember three strikes and you're out. Do some research, cut and paste, and wheel and come again: A "Paraclete" like Jesus p1
In the Bible we can find the following four passages wherein Jesus (pbuh) predicts a great event:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"
John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."
In these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (pbuh) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (pbuh), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.
It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.
All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.
What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.
John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".
Is this just knit picking? "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit," what's the big deal? Obviously they both refer to the same thing. Right? Wrong! There is a big difference. A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"
1 John 4:1-3:
(also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.
We have already exhibited in chapters one and two many documented cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded). It is, therefore, possible that either:
1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or
2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.
Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done it's utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery (see chapter 7). For this reason, it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (pbuh).
1) Christian scholars see evidence of tampering:
In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote:
"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit."
The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135
We are about to see some of the evidence that goes to prove this position.
2) Does the Holy Spirit "speak" or "inspire":
The Greek word translated as "hear" in the Biblical verses ("whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak") is the Greek word "akouo" {ak-oo'-o} meaning to perceive sounds. It has, for instance, given us the word "acoustics," the science of sounds. Similarly the verb "to speak" is the Greek verb "laleo" {lal-eh'-o} which has the general meaning "to emit sounds" and the specific meaning "to speak." This verb occurs very frequently in the Greek text of the Gospels. It designates a solemn declaration by Jesus (pbuh) during his preachings (For example Matthew 9:18). Obviously these verbs require hearing and speech organs in order to facilitate them. There is a distinct difference between someone "inspiring" something and him "speaking" something. So the Paraclete will "hear" and "speak," not "inspire."
Muhammad (pbuh), as seen above, did indeed fulfill this prophesy. Whatsoever he "HEARD" from Gabriel (The Qur'an), the same did he physically "SPEAK" to his followers. In the Qur'an we read:
"(God swears) By the star when it falls!: Your comrade (Muhammad) errs not, nor is he deceived; Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save a revelation that is revealed (unto him)."
The noble Qur'an, Al-Najm(53):1-4
3) The Holy Ghost was already with them:
In the above verses we read "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh) himself and then throughout his ministry. Read for example.
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."
"And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."
1 Samuel 11:6
"Then he remembered the days of old, moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?"
Isaiah 63:11
"For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
Luke 1:15
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."
Luke 1:35
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"
Luke 1:41
"And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,"
Luke 1:67
"And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."
Luke 2:25
"And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ."
Luke 2:26
"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
Luke 3:22
"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."
John 20:21-22
Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (pbuh) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (pbuh)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (pbuh) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (pbuh) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious.
4) Selective translation: Jesus (pbuh) too is a Paraclete:
The word "Paraclete" is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself in 1 John 2:1
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
1 John 2:1
Notice how the translators have managed to translate this exact same word one way (advocate) in reference to Jesus (pbuh) and another (comforter) with regard to the coming "parakletos." Why would they want to do such a thing? The reason is that the translators did not want the Christians, after reading
"we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
to then read
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another advocate(parakletos)."
Can we see why this would make them nervous?
Well, what was Jesus (pbuh)? He was a prophet! Read:
"...This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."
Matthew 21:11
and "..Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people"
Luke 24:19:
...etc. (see more in section 1.2.3.12).
Muhammad (pbuh) was also a prophet of God. We have already demonstrate in chapter one how the verses of the Bible themselves prove quite conclusively that Jesus (pbuh) was neither a god nor part of God Almighty, but an elect messenger of God. The concept of his divinity was concocted by Paul and his ministry during the first three centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh) and is explicitly refuted by the Bible itself and Jesus' apostles (see section 1.2.5).
5) "Another" Paraclete:
Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (pbuh), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" {al'-los}: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" {het'-er-os}.
Prof. Abdul-Ahad Dawud (formerly Rev. David Benjamin Keldani, Bishop of Uramia)* says:
"The adjective 'another' preceding a foreign noun for the first time announced seems very strange and totally superfluous. There is no doubt that the text has been tampered with and distorted."
Muhammad in the Bible, Prof. Abdul-`Ahad Dawud, p. 211
"The Paraclete is a parallel figure to Jesus himself; and this conclusion is confirmed in the fact that the title is suitable for both. It is clear from 14:16 that the source thought there were sendings of two Paracletes, Jesus and his successor, the one following the other"
The Gospel of John a Commentary, Rudolf Bultmann, p. 567
6) "Parakletos" or "Periklytos"?:
Some scholars believe that what Jesus (pbuh) said in his own Aramaic tongue in these verses represents more closely the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek. There are several similar documented cases of similar word substitution in the Bible. It is also quite possible that both words were contained in the original text but were dropped by a copyist because of the ancient custom of writing words closely packed, with no spaces in-between them. In such a case the original reading would have been: "and He will give you another comforter(Parakletos), the admirable one(Periklytos)" (See examples of many similar cases in the Biblical text in "The Emphatic Diaglott").
In his book "Muhammed in the Bible", Professor `Abdul-Ahad Dawud, formerly Rev. David Benjamin Keldani, Roman Catholic Bishop of Uramiah, submits a much more eloquent and scholarly presentation in defense of these assertions, far beyond the limited abilities of this humble author. For those who which to read a truly scholarly study of this matter, you may obtain a copy of that book. The following is a very brief quotation from that book:
"The 'Paraclete' does not signify either 'consoler' or 'advocate'; in truth, it is not a classical word at all. The Greek orthography of the word is Paraklytos which in ecclesiastical literature is made to mean 'one called to aid, advocate, intercessor' (Dict. Grec.-Francais, by Alexandre). One need not profess to be a Greek scholar to know that the Greek word for 'comforter or consoler' is not 'Paraclytos' but 'Paracalon'. I have no Greek version of the Septuagint with me, but I remember perfectly well that the Hebrew word for 'comforter' (mnahem) in the Lamentations of Jeremiah (I. 2, 9, 16, 17, 21, etc.) is translated into Parakaloon, from the verb Parakaloo, which means to call to, invite, exhort, console, pray, invoke. It should be noticed that there is a long alpha vowel after the consonant kappa in the 'Paracalon' which does not exist in the 'Paraclytos.' In the phrase (He who consoles us in all our afflictions) 'paracalon' and not 'Paraclytos' is used. (I exhort, or invite, thee to work). Many other examples can be cited here. There is another Greek word for comforter or consoler, i.e. "Parygorytys' from 'I console'.....The proper Greek term for 'advocate' is Sunegorus and for 'intercessor' or 'mediator' Meditea"
Muhammad in the Bible, Prof. Abdul-`Ahad Dawud, pp. 208-209
7) "He" not "It":
Notice the use of "he" when referring to the Paraclete and not "it." If we read John 16:13, we will find no less than SEVEN occurrences of the masculine pronoun "He" and "Himself." There is not another verse in the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or the seventy three books of the Catholic Bible which contains seven masculine pronouns, or seven feminine pronouns, or even seven neuter genders. So many masculine pronouns ill befits a ghost, holy or otherwise. The word "Spirit" (Greek, pneu'ma), is of a neutral gender and is always referred to by the pronoun "it."
Mr. Ahmed Deedat says:
"When this point of seven masculine pronouns was mooted by Muslims in India in their debates with the Christian missionaries, the Urdu (Indian) version of the Bible had the pronouns presently changed to SHE, SHE, SHE! so that the Muslims could not claim that this prophecy referred to Muhammad (pbuh) - a man! This Christian deception I have seen in the Bible myself. This is a common trickery by the missionaries, more specially in the vernacular. The very latest ruse I have stumbled across in the Afrikaans Bible, on the very verse under discussion; they have changed the word "Trooster" (Comforter), to "Voorspraak" (Mediator), and interpolated the phrase - "die Heilige Gees" - meaning THE HOLY GHOST, which phrase no Bible scholar has ever dared to interpolate into any of the multifarious English Versions. No, not even the Jehovah's witnesses. This is how the Christians manufacture God's word."
"Muhammad, the natural successor to Christ," Ahmed Deedat, p. 51
8) He will guide you into all truth:
In the above verses Jesus (pbuh) is quoted as saying "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth." What does Jesus (pbuh) mean by "ye cannot bear them now"? If we were to read the Bible, we would find many verses throughout the Bible wherein Jesus (pbuh) bemoans the lack of understanding he was constantly greeted with from his disciples throughout his ministry:
"And he(Jesus) saith unto them(the disciples).....O ye of little faith."
Matthew 8:26
"...and (Jesus) said unto him(Peter), O thou of little faith."
Matthew 14:31
"he (Jesus) said unto them(the disciples), O ye of little faith."
Matthew 16:8
"And he(Jesus) said unto them(the disciples), Where is your faith?"
Luke 8:25
Notice that these are not common Jews who he is saying these words to, but his own elect disciples. The Bible vividly illustrates how he is constantly going out of his way to simplify matters for them and to speak to them as one speaks to little children. However, even at that, they still misunderstand. He is finally driven to frustration and made to say:
"And Jesus said, Are ye even yet without understanding?"
Matthew 15:16
and "And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you?"
Luke 9:41
We are even told that his own people did not accept him:
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not."
John 1:11
Jesus (pbuh) had "all truth," but he could not give it to them because they were not fit to receive it. Therefore, he told them that another would come after him who shall guide them into "all truth" which they could not receive from him. He tells us that the one who will come will "teach you all things." This one who will guide them into "all truth" is described as "The spirit of truth." We have already seen how the word "spirit" in the Bible is synonymous with the word "Prophet." Muhammad (pbuh), even before he became the prophet of Islam was known among his people as "Al-sadik Al-amin," which means "The truthful, the trustworthy." Thus, it becomes apparent that Muhammad was indeed "the spirit of truth." Since the departure of Jesus (pbuh) and to this day, the "Holy Ghost" has not taught mankind a single new truth not revealed by Jesus (pbuh) himself.
It is important to notice the words "ALL truth" and "MANY things." "Many" and "All" means more than one. What new and innovative teachings has the Holy Ghost given mankind which were not taught by Jesus (pbuh)? The Qur'an says:
"O mankind! The messenger (Muhammad) hath come unto you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore believe; (it is) better for you. But if ye disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is the All-Knower, the All-Wise."
9) He shall glorify me:
The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this. Just one of the many examples of this is:
"And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."
The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):40.
Nobody seems to recognize this fact as being at all extraordinary. People generally look upon the Jews as true worshippers of God and followers of a legitimate faith, even if they do consider them misguided by not following Jesus (pbuh) but killing him. Their book is even incorporated into the Bible as the faultless word of God. On the other hand, Muslims are looked down upon as followers of a false prophet and as savage blood thirsty terrorists or barbarians. However, if we were to look at the Jewish opinion of Jesus (pbuh) we would find that an early reference in the Babylonian "Talmud" says that "Jeshu ha-Nocri" was a false prophet who was hanged on the eve of the Passover for sorcery and false teaching. They further claim that he was a bastard son of a Roman adulterer among many other allegations.
Mr. Josh McDowell is a Biblical scholar who has researched the topic of the Jewish Talmud's view of Jesus. The Talmud, of course, is the ultimate authoritative body of Jewish tradition, comprising the Mishnah and Gemara. In Mr. McDowell's book, "Evidence that demands a verdict," he quotes extensively from the Jewish Talmud with regard to the official Jewish view of Jesus (pbuh). The following is a small sampling from this book:
"Tol'doth Yeshu. Jesus is referred to as 'Ben Pandera'." Note: 'Ben Pandera' means 'son of Pandera'. He was a Roman soldier the Jews allege to have raped Mary to produce the illegitimate son Jesus (God forbid).
Yeb. IV 3;49a: "Rabbi Shimeon Ben Azzai said (regarding Jesus): 'I found a genealogical roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, such-an-one is a bastard of an adulteress."
Joseph Klausner adds:
"Current editions of the Mishnah, add: 'To support the words of Rabbi Yehoshua' (who in the same Mishnah says: What is a bastard? Everyone who's parents are liable to death by the Beth Din), that Jesus is here referred to seems to be beyond doubt."
The Jews had adopted in their ancient references a system of referring to Jesus with code names when heaping upon his person allegations of evil and blasphemy. One good reference on this topic is "The Jewish Encyclopaedia," in twelve volumes. The following information is obtained from that book.
Under the heading of "Jesus in Jewish legend" (Vol. VII, page 170-173), we are told that Jesus is referred to in Jewish references by such code names as "that man," "that anonymous one," "Yeshu," "bastard," "son of Pandera," "son of Stada," "Balaam," (destroyer of the people) etc. Most allegations which are associated with Jesus (peace be upon him and his mother), concern themselves either with belittling the person of Jesus, ascribing to him illegitimate birth, ascribing to his mother Mary (pbuh) acts of whoredom, attributing to Jesus acts of black magic through the vain use of the given name of God, and attributing to him a shameful death as well as severe and denigrating punishment in the afterlife.
These references to Jesus in Jewish records and law claim that Jesus was born to a well known adulteress named "Mary," who conceived him through adultery with a Roman soldier who was named either "Pandera" or "Stada." Jesus is then claimed to have traveled to Egypt and entered into the service of magicians, he lusted after a woman and was excommunicated, he set up a brick as his god and led all of Israel into apostasy. He is claimed to have cut his magic formulas into his skin, by having taken a parchment containing the "declared name of God" and cut it into his skin in order to steal it from the Temple. All of his miracles were then performed through this stolen parchment which was later forcibly retrieved from him. It was Judas Iscarlot who volunteered to retrieve it from Jesus. An arial battle ensued between Judas and Jesus. Judas found that he could in no way touch Jesus so he "defiled" him. Judas emerged victorious and Jesus fled. Forty days before the condemnation of Jesus, a herald called upon anyone who could say anything in Jesus' favor. Not a single person came. The scholars of Israel then bound him to a pillar, however, his disciples attacked them and freed him. He disguised himself and rode an ass into Jerusalem, however, Judas saw through his disguise and exposed him.
We are told that Jesus was then taken to be hung on the tree as the law required, however, he had conjured all of the trees with his black magic and none of them would receive him. Finally they hung him up on a large cabbage stalk which received him. After Jesus' body was placed in the tomb it disappeared and his disciples tried to claim that he had risen, however, it was later discovered that "Judas the gardener" had taken Jesus' body and used it as a dam to hold back the water in his garden. Jesus' body was then retrieved and flung before the Queen. In this manner the lies of the apostles were silenced and there was great rejoicing throughout the land. This same encyclopaedia alleges that the Qur'an "alludes to" the insult delivered to the body of Jesus in the streets of Jerusalem. A claim that is not only preposterous and unfounded, however, the authors are hereby publicly challenged to produce the text of the Qur'an that "alludes to" such evil claims against Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother Mary.
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Mr original Ducky, I need an answer please.
You claimed: Genisis 1:1 is clear "In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth." No Jesus, (PBUH) no Holy Spirit. Just The ONE. When God said: "Let us make man in our own image" who were the us and the our that God was talking to? Lots of people reading and following our discussion, they're waiting for an answer from you and not that lame attempt that you tried to pass onto them about the queen and all that jibrish. We demand an answer Mr Ducky Tman.
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Webster dictionary: The royal we: (used by a sovereign, or by other high officials and dignitaries, in place of I in formal speech): “We do not wear this crown without humility.” The Queen is giving a speech to open Parliament today and she uses “We, Us and Our” all the time and she alone is talking. Also used by Obama a lot. It’s an English figure of speech, and it’s not my fault you were not paying attention during English grammar class. As usual you are trying to infer meaning form certain words when they could be interpreted more than one way. You are trying to say God used the words “we us and our” because he was talking to another person (s) (Jesus (PBUH), Holy Ghost?) when He made this statement. That is one of your “proofs” about the trinity. How lame. It could also mean my explaination above, so how can you base your doctrine on that? According to the Qur’an, your soul is in grave danger as the only sin God will not forgive on the Last Day is associating any “partners” with Him. Yes, it is a sin a stated in the First Commandment: “I am the Lord they God you should not have any other before me.” So how come He did not use “we and us” here? Does that then prove He is One? You can’t have it both ways according to your “allusion”. Either He means more than one when He uses “we” or only one when He uses “I”, so sometimes He is more than one and sometimes He is one, according to you. God is not the author of confusion and is ONE ALL THE TIME.
Since you cant come up with something original I will accept Mr Ducky and now dub you Mr Slippery. Still waiting in the “slips” for answer to Paraclete above so hurry up with your cut and paste, the fans in the stands are looking for your answer to this one.
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I don't know what to classify that as, but it's weak, flat and very humorous at the sametime, I can actually hear the viewers laughing. And don't even talk about sin Tman, you have clearly denied the role of the Holy Spirit in the creation. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32) Without question, this statement being made by Jesus is one of the most dire and extreme warnings He has ever given. He is literally telling us that there is one specific sin that will never, ever be forgiven - and that one sin is a direct blasphemous attack against the Holy Spirit Himself. Jesus even says you can speak a word directly against Him and that you can still be forgiven - but He will not forgive anyone who will directly attack the Holy Spirit.
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Mr Slippery, living up to your name. Answer the post and the one about the Paraclete, or retire "hurt". And where did I deny the Holy Spirit? FUI: The Holy Spirit and God are One and the same thing and from time to time the Spirit comes to Earth to inspire and teach man like when he appeared in the form of the Angel Gabriel to Reveal the Holy Qur'an to Muhammad (PBUH). What I say without apology is Jesus (PBUH) is not God, son of God or part of the trinity along with the Holy Spirit. You still cant show me where Jesus (PBUH) says IN HIS OWN WORDS: "I am God, worship me."
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What I say without apology is Jesus (PBUH) is not God, son of God or part of the trinity along with the Holy Spirit.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 8:24, 58 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Noel you dont have a prayer, you can quote all day, the facts are that Christianity had it's origins in antioch Europe, it is a white mans made up religiwrong, it is like a wet towel that if you ring it out it would say "SLAVERY', "RACISM", "DEATH". no where in your Bible does Issa ( Jesus ) say that he was a Cristhian or a Jew. as a matter of fact he said he dread the cross, Constantine said he dreamt of the cross and in this sighn shall we conqour, and the European went across the world slaughtering the Aboriginal people in the sighn of a cross and in the name of Christianity. and for the 6000 years they have been on the planet Asia (Earth) they have slaughtered over 600 million of the black, brown, yellow,red and even his own kind.
Bredgrin,Bredgrin,Bredgrin The bible is of no private interpetation. I have read most of these posts and you are all off base a couple of verses will not cut it.
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Originally Posted By: sawfas
Bredgrin,Bredgrin,Bredgrin The bible is of no private interpetation. I have read most of these posts and you are all off base a couple of verses will not cut it.
Sawfas, welcome to the discussion, but to criticise with abscence of specifics is just like a man holding a beef bone in his hand without any meat on it, so let me ask you this question, where is the meat? point out to us areas where we are off base and give us reasoning behind it, and just wheel and come again and just remember that Jesus loves you, he also loves you too Tman, cause a know that you're ducking and reading.
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 442
Loc: west palm beach
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Mr Slippery, waiting for your answer on the Paraclete, or does it have you clean bowled?
Tman, you made a reference in your post to paraclete, but never asked a question about paraclete, so how can I answer a question that was never asked in the first place? I asked you a direct question and instead of you providing an answer for the over 2,000 viewers that are monitoring this topic, you not only ducked this time, but you jumped ship and started up a whole new topic that you think will be muc easier for you to deal with. Over 2,000 viewers are still waiting for you to tell them: who were the us and the our that The Lord was talking about when He said: "let us make man in our own image". Since you didn't ask a question about paraclete, you only made a reference, I will educate our viewers on paraclete. Paraclete is a transliteration of a Greek word meaning “one who is called to someone’s aid” or “one who advocates for another.” Thus, the term may be used technically for a lawyer. More generally, the word denotes one who acts in another’s behalf as a mediator, an intercessor, or an encourager. In 1 John 2:1 Christ is called a paraclete because he represents people to God. This function is akin to his ministry as High Priest (Hebrews 7:25-28). The most numerous uses of “paraclete” come in John’s Gospel, all referring to the work of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16, 26). In these passages Jesus declares that the Holy Spirit will come from the Father when he departs. The Paraclete, also called “the Spirit of truth,” will lead them into all truth and aid them in their ability to recall correctly Jesus’ message. He is to become their special replacement for the departed Lord.
