Jesus of 2000 years ago was a prophet of God, though he is refered to as Jesus his real name was Isa, Jesus is a greek name. Jesus of 2000 years ago was so awesome he was two thousand years ahead of his time. When he realized this he was sad because he like the rest of the Prophets wanted to see the end times of satans world. He was murdered at the age of thirty six. Him and his mother communicated telepathicaly, we stil have some that ability. His father Joseph took his body and had the Egyptians embalm it. However there is moer than one Jesus in the scripture. You have the prophetic Jesus and you have the historical one, people just get them mixed up, as 75% of what is in the scriptures whether Quran or Bible is prophetic the other 25% is actual history, Jesus in the bible told his disciples of the works that i do greater works will you do. The Bible and Quran represents 25,000 tears of history, equal to the circumfrence of our planet, before we use to write our history for 35,000 years of history, equal to the circumfrence of our planet then. Think about this you read of his birth and a little of his childhood then it goes to a little of his teaching then to his persecution then his supposedly crusifiction. and we only know of him through the Apostles, and i have not heard of any other historical record of him.
Even the so called Jews know that Jesus of 2000 years ago was not the Messiah, when the Messiah comes he crushes the wicked, Jesus of 2,000 years ago did not crush the wicked , him and his disciples were crushed by the wicked. When the European so called Jews have their passover they set a table and leave a seat open for the Messiah , they are expecting Elijah, and they are not looking to see a spirit they are expecting a man.
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
John 8: 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
What is the meaning of "He"? When they asked John the Baptist (PBUH) "are you that prophet" who were they referring to? Another challenge to add to Deut 18;18; John 16:12-14. Who is this talking about? Will accept cut and paste answers. Since you like quoting the Qura'n you must know the answer to "who was Jesus (PBUH)". It also has a whole chapter on Mary, the only Holy Book to do so
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Originally Posted By: Noel2000
John 8: 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
What is the meaning of "He"? When they asked John the Baptist (PBUH) "are you that prophet" who were they referring to? Another challenge to add to Deut 18;18; John 16:12-14. Who is this talking about? Will accept cut and paste answers. Since you like quoting the Qura'n you must know the answer to "who was Jesus (PBUH)". It also has a whole chapter on Mary, the only Holy Book to do so
Tman, my brethen, you may call it cut and paste, but I call it research. Muhammad claimed that the Bible foretold his prophethood. Today many Muslim apologists claim that the term "brethren" in Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18, could include anyone who is a descendant of Abraham. They believe that since Muhammad was an assumed descendant of Ishmael, Abraham's first son, then Muhammad qualifies as a 'brother' to the Israelites, and is indeed the prophet who Moses foretold in Deuteronomy 18:18. The New Testament tells us that Jesus is the prophet Moses foretold (Acts 3:22). Let's examine the biblical evidence and see if Muhammad has a claim to be the prophet foretold by Moses. CONTEXT OF “BRETHREN” To begin with, the term used for 'brethren' is used in a variety of ways in the Old Testament, (Taurat, Zabur). What must be addressed is the context for the term 'brethren'. If the context of how it is used means anyone loosely related to the Israelites, then perhaps it is possible that Muhammad could be the prophet. If the context means that the future prophet is to be an Israelite, then Muhammad could not be that prophet. In one sense, since Muslims and Christians believe that all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve, then all of us are brothers and sisters. But Muslims insist that the meaning of "brethren" in the Deuteronomy 18:18 verse is one who is a descendant of Abraham, not Adam. Is their definition valid? What is the context for the use of the term "brethren" in the Old Testament, and specifically, Deuteronomy? Here are three different ways the term 'brethren' is used in Deuteronomy: 1) used for relating the 12 tribes together,
2) used to relate the Levites amongst themselves as brothers, as in 18:7 3) used to relate the Israelites to the Edomites, as in 2:4. I did research into the way the term 'brethren' is used throughout the Old Testament. I found that the Hebrew word is 'awkh'. It generally means 'a brother' used in the widest sense of literal relationships, and metaphorically, having an affinity or resemblance. 'awkh' is also translated (in the King James Version - I'm using a Strong's King James Version concordance) 'another' as in 1 Chr 26:12, ('relatives' in New International Version), as 'like' in Ezekiel: 18.10, and as 'other' in Genesis 13:11. Brown's Hebrew lexicon also reinforced Strong's definition. It states that the word can be translated in various ways: 1) as brother, meaning born of the same mother, 2) indefinite relative, a kinship in a wider sense, as in Lot being a 'brother' of Abraham in Genesis 13:8... Lot was Abram's nephew, not literal brother, or the Israelite tribes being brothers, or as in Israel and Edom being brothers, and likewise for Israel and Juda. It is also used to denote close friendships like 2 Samuel 1:26 - the relationship between David and Jonathan, or used for allies - as in Amos 1:9. Brown's also states that it is used as a figure of resemblance as in Job 30:29... Job was not the literal brother to a jackal, Job was identifying with being abandoned. And, it is used to denote the cherubim facing each other in Exodus 25:20, and as 'the sight' of a crocodile in Job 41:9. Another verse I found is in Proverbs 18:9 "One who is slack in his work is brother to him who destroys". Again, the use is metaphorical. All of the above shows that the term 'awkh' can be used in various ways; part of its specific meaning being defined by the context in which it is used. So, digging deeper into the contexts of how "brethren" is used start with the book of Deuteronomy. The first clue to the context of "brethren" is from the purpose of the book of Deuteronomy itself. The name Deuteronomy means 'copy of the law'; the law for who? - the Israelites, no one else. This book was given specifically to the Israelites, it was Moses' farewell address to them. A large part of it was a review of the laws between God and the Israelites, and its reading was to prepare them to enter into the promised land. Next, I took a look at how the term 'brethren' (King James Version) is used throughout Deuteronomy. I found that it is used about 20 times, at least 14 times it means 'fellow Israelites' - members of the 12 tribes. Twice it is used to ref. the Edomites, and once for Levitical brothers, once for literal brothers (25:5), and twice for the verses in question: 18:15,18. Therefore, the overwhelming majority of times the context is used for referring to 'fellow Israelites'. Tman, let's carefully examine the verses in question, and see if we can find any clues to the context in question. Let's start with verse 14. The New International Version uses 'brothers' usually in place of the King James Version 'brethren'. Words in ( ) parenthesis are mine. From Deut. 18: 14: "The nations you (i.e. the Israelites) will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you (the Israelites), the Lord your (the Israelites) God has not permitted you (the Israelites) to do so. 15: The Lord your God will raise up for you (the Israelites) a prophet like me from among your (the Israelites) own "brothers". You (the Israelites) must listen to him. 16: For this is what you (the Israelites) asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you (the Israelites) said, "Let us (the Israelites) not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we (the Israelites) will die." 17: The Lord said to me "What they (the Israelites) say is good. 18: I will raise up for them (the Israelites) a prophet like you from among their (the Israelites) brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them (the Israelites) everything I command him. 19: If anyone (the Israelites) does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him (an Israelite) to account. It's very clear here that the context for 'brethren' is from amongst the fellow Israelites. Not an Edomite, or other non-Israelite, who were not given the law, not part of the group Moses was addressing. Moses meant that the prophet would come out of the 12 Israelite tribes. Tman, should also try to cross reference to other verses in Deuteronomy to see if you can get additional understanding of the context. In Deuteronomy 2:4, 8, 'brethren' was used in conjunction with the Edomites, who were basically their cousins. Moses plainly described who the brothers were... what the context of them being brethren was (i.e. Edomites being the descendants of Esau). By understanding the context here we would not confuse the Edomite 'brethren' with the Levitical 'brethren' found in 18:7, or the Israelite 'brethren' found in 1:16 or 33:24. Edomite 'brethren' would clearly not fit the context for 18:7, 1:16, or 33:24. In Deut 17:15 a very strong statement is given regarding who "brothers" means in the verses in chapter 18: "Be sure to appoint over you the King the Lord your God chooses. He must be "FROM AMONG YOUR OWN BROTHERS". Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a "BROTHER ISRAELITE". Compare these terms with 18:15 - "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me FROM AMONG YOUR OWN BROTHERS. You must listen to him." Clearly, this verse has much in common with 17:15. Moses did not add 'brother Israelite', because they understood what he was talking about based upon what he had said just a few moments earlier in Chapter 17. The context is the same for both. The future prophet had to be a fellow Israelite. Therefore, the weight of the evidence for understanding the context - and who actually the "brethren" were, shows clearly that the future prophet had to be from the 12 tribes. Jesus fulfills that requirement, Muhammad does not.
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You are stuck on the word “brethren” which you admit might have more than one meaning, including the one Muslims believe. Let’s examine the ENTIRE verse. This piece also gives the answer to “who is that “prophet” I asked you to address.
The most important words of this prophecy are like unto thee, - like you - like Moses. In which way is Jesus like Moses. In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a prophet and Jesus was also a prophet - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "like you". "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus? If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of another?" You see, Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me.
Three Unlikes In the first place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true? Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! secondly, according to you - 'Jesus died for the sins of the world', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true? Therefore Jesus is not like Moses! Father and Mother (1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Mohammed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true? Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammed is like Moses!" Miraculous Birth (2) "Moses and Mohammed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 before they came together, (Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) she was found with child by the holy ghost.' And St. Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned:'.......how shall this be, seeing i know not a man? and the angel answered and said unto her, the holy ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee:......'(Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in L! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me? " The angel says in reply: "Even so: Allah createth what he willeth: when he hath decreed a plan, he but saith to it "be," and it is " (Holy Qur'an, 3:47). It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the birth of Jesus. Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Mohammed. Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "like unto thee" (Like You, Like Moses) and Mohammed is like Moses."
Marriage Ties (3) "Moses and Mohammed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammed is like Moses."
Jesus Rejected by his People (3) "Moses and Mohammed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Mohammed 's life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not.' (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejeted him. "therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammed is like Moses."
"Other-wordly" Kingdom (5) "Moses and Mohammed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - he is a king. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on the Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Mohammed too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defense to refute the false charge: Jesus answered, "my kingdom is not of this world': if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my kingdom not from hence"(John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (a pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Mohammed is like Moses."
No New Laws (6) "Moses and Mohammed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Mohammed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", the human brute, almost without sense, is poorly distinguished from the rest of the animal creation.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
"From this abject barbarism, Mohammed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'to the Arab nation it was as a birth from darkness into light. Arabia first became alive by means of it. a poor shepherd people, roaming unnoticed in its deserts since the creation of the world. See, the unnoticed becomes world notable, the small has grown world-great. Within one century afterwards Arabia was at Granada on one hand and at Delhi on the other. Advancing in valour and splendour, and the light of genius, Arabia shines over a great section of the world. ...' The fact is that Mohammed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.
"As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an imposter with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such foul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread', which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Mohammed. Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Mohammed is like Moses.
How they Departed (7) "Both Moses and Mohammed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross. Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Mohammed is like Moses."
Heavenly Abode (8) "Moses and Mohammed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Mohammed is like Moses.
Ishmael The First Born So far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy- that is proving the phrase 'like unto thee' - 'Like You' 'Like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : "I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the Arabs. You see, the Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - his first-born- '......And Abraham(11) called his son's name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael his son......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). up to the age of thirteen Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.
Arabs and Jews If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN. (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.' (Genesis 16:12). 'and he (Ishmael) died in the presence of all his brethren. (Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Mohammed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishamel the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it - 'from among their brethren'. (Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. Mohammed therefore was from among their brethren!
Words in the Mouth "The prophecy proceeds further:'.......and i will put my words into his mouth.......' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? If I were to teach you a language like Arabic about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e.: "Say: he is Allah the one and only; Allah, the eternal absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten: and there is none like unto Him. (Holy Qur'an 112:1-4,) in Arabic, would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth? In an identical manner, the words of the Holy Qur'an, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Mohammed, were revealed.
History tells us that Mohammed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Mohammed was terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues. Now Mohammed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth: "Read! in the name of the Lord and cherisher, who created - created man, from a (mere) clot of congealed blood: read! and thy Lord is most bountiful, - He who taught (the use of) the pen, taught man that which he knew not". (Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)
These are the first five verses which were revealed to Mohammed which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.
The Faithful Witness Immediately the angel had departed, Mohammed rushed to his home. Terrified and sweating all over he asked his beloved wife Khadija to 'cover him up!' He lay down, and she watched by him. When he had regained his composure, he explained to her what he had seen and heard. She assured him of her faith in him and that Allah would not allow any terrible thing to happen to him. Are these the confessions of an imposter? Would imposters confess that when an angel of the Lord confronts them with a Message from on High, they get fear-stricken, terrified, and sweating all over, run home to their wives? Any critic can see that his reactions and confessions are that of an honest, sincere man, the man of Truth - 'AL-AMIN' - the Honest, the Upright, the Truthful. During the next twenty-three years of his prophetic life, words were 'Put into his mouth', and he uttered them. They made an indeliable impression on his heart and mind: and as the volume of the Sacred Scripture (Holy Qur'an) grew, they were recorded on palm-leaf fibre, on skins and on the shoulder-blades of animals; and in the hearts of his devoted disciples. Before his demise these words were arranged according to his instructions in the order in which we find them today in the Holy Qur’an. The words (revelation) were actually put into his mouth, exactly as foretold in the prophecy under discussion: 'AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH.' (Deut. 18:18).
Un-lettered Prophet Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah. Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "and the book" (al-Kitaab, al-Quran the 'Reading', the 'Recitation') "is delivered to him that is not learned," (Isaiah 29:12) "the unlettered prophet " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continue: "saying, read this, I pray thee:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Catholics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "and he saith, I am not learned." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Mohammed uttered twice to the Holy Ghost - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : "READ!".
Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly know "and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." (Isaiah 29:12).
Important note : It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th century of the Christian era when Mohammed lived and preached. Besides, he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was his Creator: "He does not speak (aught), of (his own) desire: it is no less than inspiration sent down to him: he was taught by one mighty in power," (Holy Qur'an 53:3-5). Without any human learning, 'he put to shame the wisdom of the learned'.
Grave Warning See how the prophecies fit Mohammed like a glove? We do not have to stretch prophecies to justify their fulfilment in Mohammed. God followed up Deuteronomy 18:18 with a dire warning: "and it shall come to pass, " (it is going to happen) "that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, i will require it of him. (in the Catholic Bible the ending words are - "I will be the revenger", I will take vengeance from him - I will take revenge!) "Does not this terrify you? God Almighty is threathening revenge! We shake in our pants if some hoodlum threathens us, yet you have no fear of God's warning?"
"Miracle of Miracles! in the verse 19 of Deuteronomy chapter 18, we have a further fulfilment of the prophecy in Mohammed! Note the words-'.....my words which he shall speak in my name," In whose name is Mohammed speaking?" In Yusuf Ali's translation of the Holy Qur'an, at chapter 114 - 'Sura Nas', or Mankind - the last chapter, at the head of the chapter: and the meaning: "IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL." And the heading of chapter 113: and the meaning: "IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL". And every chapter downwards 112 , 111, 110.......was the same formula and the same meaning on every page, because the end SURAS (chapters) are short and take about a page each.
"And what did the prophecy demand?' ......which he shall speak in my name and in whose name does Muhummed speak? 'IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS MOST MERCIFUL.' The Prophecy is being fulfilled in Mohammed to the letter. Every chapter of the Holy Qur'an except the 9th begin with the formula: IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.' The Muslim begins his every lawful act with the Holy formula. But the Christian begins: "In the name of the Father, son and holy ghost. Concerning Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, I have given you more than 15 reasons as to how this prophecy refers to Mohammed and NOT to Jesus.
Answer to “That prophet” In New Testament times, we find that the Jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophecy of 'ONE LIKE MOSES', refer John 1:19-25. When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to enquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first in his second coming. Jesus confirms this Jewish belief:
".......Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. but I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not,...then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:11-13). According to the New Testament the Jews were not the ones to swallow the words of any would-be Messiah. In their investigations they underwent intense difficulties in order to find their true Messiah. And this the Gospel of John confirms: "and this is the record of John,"(the Baptist) "when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, who art thou? and he confessed and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ." (This was only natural because there can't be two Messiahs) at the same time. If Jesus was the Christ then John couldn't be the Christ!) "and they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not." (Here John the Baptist contradicts Jesus! Jesus says that John is "Elias" and John denies that he is what Jesus ascribes him to be. One of the TWO (Jesus or John), God forbid!, is definitely not speaking the truth! On the testimony of Jesus himself, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Israelite prophets: "verily I say unto you, among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist:... (Matthew 11:11).
We Muslims know John the Baptist as Hazrut YAHYAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him). We revere him as a true prophet of Allah. The Holy Prophet Jesus known to us as Hazrut ISAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him), is also esteemed as one of the mightiest messenger of the Almighty. How can we Muslims impute lies to either of them? We leave this problem between Jesus and John for the Christians to solve, for their "sacred scriptures abound in discrepancies which they have been glossing over as the "dark sayings of Jesus". We Muslims are really interested in the last questions posed to John the Baptist by the Jewish elite - "art thou that prophet? and he answered, no."(John 1:21)
Three Questions! Please note that three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist and to which he gave three emphatic "NO'S" as answers. To recapitulate:- 1) ART THOU THE CHRIST? 2) ART THOU ELIAS? 3) ART THOU THAT PROPHET?
But the learned men of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had T-H-R-E-E separate prophecies in their minds when they were interrogating John the Baptist, let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following:
"AND THEY ASKED HIM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHEY BAPTIZEST THOU THEN, IF THOU BE a) NOT THAT CHRIST, b) NOR ELIAS, c) NEITHER THAT PROPHET?" (John 1:25)
The Jews were waiting for the fulfilment of THREE distinct prophecies: One, the coming of CHRIST. Two the coming of ELIAS, and Three, the coming of THAT PROPHET. If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, then we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED and not Jesus!
We Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the "Messiah", which word is translated as "Christ. We are not contesting the "thousand and one prophecies" which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does NOT refer to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the Holy Prophet MOHAMMED!"
The Acid Test To the lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said: "by their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes from the thorns, or figs from the thistles? Every good tree will bear good fruit and every evil tree will bear evil fruit....by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20).
Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Mohammed? You will find in the Last Testament of God - the Holy Qur'an - the true fulfilment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much-needed peace and happiness. "if a man like Mohamed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness."(George Bernard Shaw)
The Greatest! The weekly newsmagazine "Time" dated July 15, 1974, carried a selection of opinions by various historians, writers, military men, businessmen and others on the subject: "Who Were History's Great Leaders?" Some said that it was Hitler; others said-Gandhi, Buddha, Lincoln and the like. But Jules Mass erman, a United States psychoanalyst put the standards straight by giving the correct criteria wherewith to judge. He said: "leaders must fulfil three functions:- (1) Provide for the well-being of the led, (2) Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure and (3) Provide them with one set of beliefs."
With the above three criteria he searches history and analyses - Hitler, Pasteur, Caesar, Moses, Confucius and the lot, and ultimately concludes: "People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same."
According to the objective standards set by the professor of the Chicago University, whom I believe to be Jewish, - Jesus and Buddah are now - here in the picture of the "Great Leaders of Mankind", but by a queer coincidence groups Moses and Mohammed together thus adding further weight to the argument that Jesus is not like Moses, but MOHAMMED is like Moses: Deut.18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" - Like Moses!
A concluding suggestion : “Come let us reason together Say: "O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; That we associate no partners with Him; That we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, Say: "bear witness that we (at least) Are Muslims (bowing to God's will)." (Holy Qur'an 3:64)
"People of the Book" is the respectful title given to the Jews and the Christians in the Holy Qur'an. The Muslims is here commanded to invite - "O People of the Book!" - O Learned People! O People who claim to be the recipients of Divine Revelation, of a Holy Scripture; let us gather together onto a common platform - "that we worship none but God", because none but God is worthy of worship, not because "the Lord thy God is a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."(Exodus 20:25). But because He is our Lord and Cherisher, our Sustainer and Evolver, worthy of all praise, prayer and devotion.
In the abstract the Jews and the Christians would agree to all the three propositions contained in this Qur'anic verse. In practice they fail. Apart from doctrinal lapses from the unity of the One True God, (ALLAH_ Subha-nahu wa ta-ala) there is the question of a consecrated priesthood (among the Jews it was hereditary also), as if a mere human being - Cohen or pope, or priest, or Brahuman, - could claim superiority apart from his learning and the purity of his life, or could stand between man and God in some special sense. Islam does not recognise priesthood!
The Creed of Islam is given to us here in a nutshell from Holy Qur'an: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, And the revelation given to us, And to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, And that given to Moses and Jesus And that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference Between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." (Holy Qur'an 2:136).
The Muslim position is clear. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself. Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all religion is one, for the Truth is one. IT WAS THE SAME RELIGION PREACHED BY ALL THE EARLIER PROPHETS. (Holy Qur'an 42:13). It was the truth taught by all the inspired Books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the Will and Plan of God and a joyful submission to that Will and Plan. If anyone wants a religion other than that, he is false to his own nature, as he is false to God's will and plan. Such a one cannot expect guidance, for he has deliberately renounced guidance.
Notes: (1) The word "Messiah" comes from the Arabic and Hebrew word masaha which means to rub, to massage, to anoint. The religious significance is "the one who is anointed' - priests and kings were anointed in consecration to their offices. Messiah translated Christ does not mean God. Even the heathen Cyrus is called "Christ" in the Bible, (Isaiah 45:1)
(2) Mohammed is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is Mohammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Mohammed translated as "altogether lovely", in the authorised version of the Bible, or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MOHAMMED!
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Nice try Tman, but it fall flat like a pancake. Some Muslims object to Muhammad being ruled out as the prophet, and assert the following: "Jesus never claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold". Jesus never said directly "I am the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18". But He said that He was a prophet, and probably meant that He was that prophet. Other parts of the N.T. declare Him to be that prophet. Let's start with Christ's implications then go on: 1)-Luke 7:39 - the Pharisee said to himself, 'if this man were a prophet...Jesus knew his thoughts and addressed them, proving to the Pharisee that he was a prophet. 2)-John 5:46 - Jesus said "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me." Moses did write about Jesus; Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Jesus claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold. 3)-In various places, at various times, various people called Jesus the 'prophet' of Deuteronomy 18:18, yet Jesus never corrected them, rebuked them, or told them otherwise. He always accepted those particular statements. When the Pharisees called him otherwise, He set them straight. Matt. 21:11, John 1:45, 6:14, 7:40, Luke 7:16, 24:19, etc. 4)-Jesus did call Himself a prophet - John 4:44 5)-After His ascension His disciples emphatically said He was that prophet: Acts 3:22, 7:37 -------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
Nice try Tman, but it fall flat like a pancake. Some Muslims object to Muhammad being ruled out as the prophet, and assert the following: "Jesus never claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold". Jesus never said directly "I am the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18". But He said that He was a prophet, and probably meant that He was that prophet. Other parts of the N.T. declare Him to be that prophet. Let's start with Christ's implications then go on: 1)-Luke 7:39 - the Pharisee said to himself, 'if this man were a prophet...Jesus knew his thoughts and addressed them, proving to the Pharisee that he was a prophet. 2)-John 5:46 - Jesus said "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me." Moses did write about Jesus; Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Jesus claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold. 3)-In various places, at various times, various people called Jesus the 'prophet' of Deuteronomy 18:18, yet Jesus never corrected them, rebuked them, or told them otherwise. He always accepted those particular statements. When the Pharisees called him otherwise, He set them straight. Matt. 21:11, John 1:45, 6:14, 7:40, Luke 7:16, 24:19, etc. 4)-Jesus did call Himself a prophet - John 4:44 5)-After His ascension His disciples emphatically said He was that prophet: Acts 3:22, 7:37 -------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Fist of all you must point out where what I am claiming is wrong, its not enough to say "it falls flat like a pancake". Show me point by point by point how Jesus is like Moses,more than how Muhammad is like Moses, peace be unto all of them. By your own answer you prove my point: "Jesus never claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold". Jesus never said directly "I am the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18". But He said that He was a prophet, and probably meant that He was that prophet." Your argument is based on:"Never claimed, never said directly, and probably meant". All the passages you quote only claim that Jesus (PBUH) was a prophet, which is what Islam teaches, so you are confirming the Muslim claim. Matthew 21:11 (New King James Version) 11 So the multitudes said, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.”
John 1:45 (New King James Version) 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” We already dealt with Nazareth did not exist at the time of Jesus so how can you trust this statement? Even so, all it is saying is Jesus (PBUH) was a prophet, as Muslim assert and Moses wrote about him, it did not say it was in D18:18, as there are other prophecies by Moses about Jesus.
John 6:14 (New King James Version) 14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
Luke 7:16 (New King James Version) 16 Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” All saying a great prophet, but not that prophet of D18:18. The quote form Acts is what that writer says, again not the words of Jesus (PBUH)
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Tman, let me first say that I really do enjoy having these discussions with you, you're very humble, and very respectful and I really do appreciate that, you're not like: Chez and the ddread who feels like they have to hurl insults to prove thier points. Now that I got that off my chest, you asked for similarities point by point, I was hoping you would ask and you sure did, isn't The Lord wonderful? God told Moses He would raise up a prophet like unto him. See the amazing similarities between Moses and Jesus that prove that Jesus was the Prophesied One. "The life of Moses presents a series of striking antitheses. He was the child of a slave, and the son of a king. He was born in a hut, and lived in a palace. He inherited poverty, and enjoyed unlimited wealth. He was the leader of armies, and the keeper of flocks. He was the mightiest of warriors, and the meekest of men. He was educated in the court, and dwelt in the desert. He had the wisdom of Egypt, and the faith of a child. He was fitted for the city, and wandered in the wilderness. He was tempted with the pleasures of sin, and endured the hardships of virtue. He was backward in speech, and talked with God. He had the rod of a shepherd, and the power of the Infinite. He was a fugitive from Pharaoh, and an ambassador from Heaven. He was the giver of the Law, and the forerunner of Grace. He died alone on mount Moab, and appeared with Christ in Judea. No man assisted at his funeral, yet God buried him. The fire has gone out of mount Sinai, but the lightning is still in his Law. His lips are silent, but his voice yet speaks" (Dr. I. M. Haldeman). But the most striking thing of all in connection with this most remarkable man, is the wonderful way and the many respects in which he was a type of the Lord Jesus: In Deuteronomy 18:15 we find Moses saying, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto Him ye shall hearken". Thus it wilt be seen from these words that we are not trafficking in human imagination when we contemplate Moses as a type of Christ. Such is the plain teaching of Holy Writ. At Moses birth, the Pharaoh wanted all Hebrew boys killed. Exodus 1:15-16 At Christ’s birth, Herod wanted all Hebrew children killed. Matthew 2:16
Moses, a Hebrew, was actually a prince and heir to Egypt. Acts 7:21-22; ... Hebrews 11:24; Exodus 2:10 Christ, a carpenter’s son, was actually heir of all things. Hebrews 1:2; Philippians 2:6-2:8
Moses lay down his position on the throne of Egypt, seeing their burdens.. Hebrews 11:24-25 Jesus, seeing His people’s oppression, became a servant in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:6-8
Moses was rejected when he came unto his brethren, saying who made you a ruler and a judge over us. Exodus 2:11-14; Acts 7:23-27 Jesus was rejected as He came unto His people and was accused of using the power of the devil. Matthew 27:22; ... Matthew 12:24
After his rejection, Moses took a Gentile Bride. Exodus 2:15-16; Exodus 2:21-22 Christ is now gathering together His mostly Gentile Bride of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2
Moses went out to his brethren and he looked on their burdens. Ex. 2:11 ...ye make them rest from their burdens. Ex. 5:5 Jesus: Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest... Matt.11:28
Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind. Ex. 14:21 What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the seas obey Him? Matt. 8:27
Israel didn’t understand why when the king of Egypt died, that their bondage being increased, asked Why God?, Exodus 2:23 His disciples didn’t understand why their Messiah had to go to the cross. The church age a mystery. Matthew 16:21-23; John 19:10-11; Acts 1:3-7
How long shall this man be a snare unto us?, Ex. 10:7 A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, 1 Pet. 2:8
They be almost ready to stone me, Ex.17:4 Then took they up stones to cast at Him, John 8:59
Moses, took twelve men of you. Deut. 1:23 Jesus, And he ordained twelve, that they might be with Him. Mark 3:13,14
Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of the people. Num. 11:16 Jesus, The Lord appointed other seventy also. Luke 10:1
God heard their groaning, and remembered His covenant with Abraham. Exodus 2:24-25 God will hear the cry of Israel, and remember His covenant with Abraham. Romans 11:27
The Lord sends His deliverer, Moses to set His people free from Egyptian bondage. Exodus 3:7-10 The Lord will send Himself, to deliver Sirael after the Tribulation. Romans 11:26-28
The Lord sent judgment upon Egypt, Moses, the only one worthy, “broke the seals” of judgment on Egypt. Exodus 7:2-5 Christ will be the only One worthy to open the seals of judgment on the antichrist. Revelation 5:6-9
The Pharaoh’s heart was hardened with the judgments of God on Egypt, Exodus 7:10-13 The world’s heart will be hardened with the judgments of God on the world. Revelation 16:9-11
Through judgment, Israel is delivered out of Egypt. Exodus 14:8-14 Through judgment, Israel will be delivered out of the Tribulation. Romans 11:25-29
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said... we don't know what has happened to him." Ex.32:1 Where is the promise of His coming?, 2 Pet 3:3,4
Moses, His servant, Ps.105:26... Jesus, My Servant, Matt. 12:18
Moses, The prophet, Deut.18:15-19... Jesus, The Prophet, John 6:14, Luke 7:16
Moses, Judge, Ex. 18:13... Jesus, Judge, John 5:27, Mat.25:31-46
75 Similarities of Moses and Jesus:
1. His nationality. Moses was an Israelite (Ex. 2:1, 2). So, according to the flesh, was Christ.
2. His Birth. This occurred when his nation was under the dominion of a hostile power, when they were groaning under the rule of a Gentile king (Ex. 1). So the Jews were in bondage to the Romans when Christ was born (Matthew 2:1 cf. Luke 24: 21).
3. His Person. "In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair to God" (Acts 7:20). How blessedly did he, in this, foreshadow the Beloved of the Father! His estimate of the "fairness" of that Child which lay in Bethlehem’s manger, was evidenced by the sending of the angels to say unto the shepherds, "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11).
4. His Infancy. In infancy his life was endangered, imperiled by the reigning king, for Pharaoh had given orders that, "Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river" (Ex. 1:22). How this reminds us of Matthew 2:16: "Then Herod . . . sent forth and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof"!
5. His Adoption. Though, previously, he was the child of another, he yet was made the son of Pharaoh’s daughter: "And became her son" (Ex. 2:10). Thus he had a mother, but no father! What anointed eye can fail to see prefigured here the mystery of the Virgin-birth! Christ was the Son of Another, even the Son of God. But, born into this world, He had a mother, but no human father. Yet was He, as it were, adopted by Joseph: see Matthew 1:19-21.
6. His Childhood. This was spent in Egypt. So also was Christ’s: "Behold the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, and take the young Child and His mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word" (Matthew 2:13). Thus was fulfilled God’s ancient oracle, "And called My Son out of Egypt" (Hosea 11:1).
7. His Sympathy for Israel. He was filled with a deep compassion for his suffering kinsmen according to the flesh, and he yearned for their deliverance. Beautifully does this come out in Acts 7:23, 24, "And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren of the children of Israel. And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him." So too Christ was filled with pity toward His enslaved people, and love brought Him here to deliver them.
8. His early knowledge of his Mission. Long years before he actually entered upon his great work, Moses discerned, "how that God by his hand would deliver them" (Acts 7:25). So as a Boy of twelve, Christ said to His perplexed mother, "Wist ye not that I must be about My Father’s business?" (Luke 2:49).
9. His condescending Grace. Though legally the "son of Pharaoh’s daughter", yet he regarded the Hebrew slaves as his brethren: "And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren" (Ex. 2:11). So it is with Christ: "He is not ashamed to call them brethren" (Heb. 2:11).
10. His great Renunciation. "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt" (Heb. 11:24-26). What a foreshadowing was this of Him "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant" (Phil. 2:6, 7)! Like Moses, Christ too voluntarily relinquished riches, glory, and a kingly palace.
11. His Rejection by his brethren. "And the next day he showed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? But he that did his neighbor wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?" (Acts 7:26, 27). This is very sad; sadder still is it to read of Christ, "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11). This same line in the typical picture was before us when we considered Joseph. But mark this difference: In the case of Joseph, it was his brethren’s enmity against his person (Gen. 37:4); here with Moses, it was his brethren’s enmity against his mission. Joseph was personally hated; Moses officially refused—"who made thee a ruler and a judge over us"? So it was with Christ. Israel said, "We will not have this Man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14).
12. His Sojourning among the Gentiles. "But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian" (Ex. 2:15). Following Christ’s rejection by the Jews, we read, "God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name" (Acts 15:14).
13. His Seat on the well. Away from his own land, we read of Moses, "And he sat down by a well" (Ex. 2:15). So the only time we read of the Lord Jesus seated by the well, was when He was outside Israel’s borders, in Samaria (John 4:4, 6).
14. His Shepherdhood. "Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father-in-law" (Ex. 3:1). This is the character which Christ sustains to His elect among the Gentiles: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one flock, one Shepherd" (John 10:16).
15. His Season of Seclusion. Before he entered upon his real mission, Moses spent many years in obscurity. Who had supposed that this one, there "at the backside of the desert", was destined to such an honorable future? So it was with the incarnate Son of God. Before He began His public ministry, He was hidden away in despised Nazareth. Who that saw Him there in the carpenter’s shop, dreamed that He was ordained of God to the work of redemption!
16. His Commission from God. He was called of God to emancipate His people from the house of bondage: "Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth My people the children of Israel out of Egypt" (Ex. 3:10). So Christ was sent forth into this world to "seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).
17. His Apostleship. Thus he was God’s apostle unto Israel, for "apostle" signifies one "sent forth": "Now therefore go" (Ex. 4:12). So Christ was the Sent One of God (John 9:4 etc); yea, in Hebrews 3:1 He is designated "the Apostle".
18. His Credentials. His commission from God was confirmed by power to work miracles. So also Christ’s mission was authenticated by wondrous signs (Matthew 11:4, 5). It should be noted that Moses is the first one mentioned in the O. T. that performed miracles; so is Christ in the N. T.—John the Baptist performed none (John 10:41).
19. His first Miracles. Moses wrought many wonders, but it is most striking to observe that his first two miraculous signs were power over the serpent, and power over leprosy (Ex. 4:6-9). So after Christ began His public ministry, we read first of His power over Satan (Matthew 4:10, 11), and then His power over leprosy (Matthew 8:3).
20. His Return to his own land. In Exodus 4:19 we read, "And the Lord said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life". The antitype of this is found in Matthew 2:19, "An angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, saying, Arise, and take the young Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young Child’s life"!
21. His Acceptance by his brethren. This is recorded in Exodus 4:29-31. How different was this from his first appearing before and rejection by the Hebrews (Ex. 2)! How beautifully it prefigured Israel’s acceptance of their Messiah at His second appearing!
22. His powerful Rod. Moses now wielded a rod of mighty power: see Exodus 9:23; 10:13; 14:16. So also it is written of Christ, "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron" (Ps. 2:9).
23. His Announcing solemn Judgments. Again and again he warned Pharaoh and his people of the sore punishment of God if they continued to defy him. So also Christ declared, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).
24. His deliverance of Israel. Moses perfectly fulfilled his God-given commission and led Israel out of the house of bondage: "The same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer" (Acts 7:35). So Christ affirmed, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:36).
25. His Headship. Remarkably is this brought out in 1 Corinthians 10:1, 2, "All our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Morea". So obedient Christians are "baptized unto Jesus Christ" (Rom. 6:3).
26. His Leadership of Israel’s Praise. "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel" (Ex. 15:1) Of Christ too it is written, "In the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee" (Ps. 22:22).
27. His Authority challenged. This is recorded in Numbers 16:3; the antitype in Matthew 21:23.
28. His person Envied. See Psalm 106:16, and compare Mark 15:10.
29. His person opposed. Though Israel were so deeply indebted to Moses, yet again and again we find them "murmuring" against him: Exodus 15:24, 16:2, etc. For the N. T. parallel see Luke 15:2, John 6:41.
30. His life Threatened. So fiercely did the ungrateful Hebrews oppose Moses that, on one occasion, they were ready to "stone" him (Ex. 17:4). How this brings to mind what we read of in John 8:59, 10:31!
31. His Sorrows. Moses felt keenly the base ingratitude of the people. Mark his plaintive plea as recorded in Numbers 11:11, 14. So too the Lord Jesus suffered from the reproaches of the people: He was "the Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief".
32. His unwearied Love. Though misunderstood, envied, and opposed, nothing could alienate the affections of Moses from his people. "Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it" (Song 8:7). Beautifully is this seen in Exodus 32. After Israel repudiated Jehovah and had worshipped the golden calf, after the Lord has disowned them as His people (Ex. 32:7), Moses supplicates God on their behalf, saying "Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray Thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written" (vv. 31:32). How this reminds us of Him who "having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end" (John 13:1)!
33. His Forgiving spirit. "And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses... Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? Hath He not spoken also by us"? (Num. 12:1, 2). But he answered not a word. How this pointed to Him who, ‘when He was reviled, reviled not again" (1 Pet. 2:23). When Miriam was stricken with leprosy because of her revolt against her brother, we are told, "Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech Thee" (Num. 12:13).
34. His Prayerfulness. An example of this has just been before us, but many other instances are recorded. Moses was, pre-eminently, a man of prayer. At every crisis he sought unto the Lord: see Exodus 5:22, 8:12, 9:33, 14:15, 15:25, 17:4, etc. Note how often in Luke’s Gospel Christ is also presented as a Man of prayer.
35. His Meekness. "Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth" (Num. 12:3) cf. Matthew 11:29.
36. His Faithfulness. "Moses verily was faithful in all his house" (Heb. 3:5). So Christ is "The faithful and true Witness" (Rev. 3:14).
37. His providing Israel with water. See Numbers 20:11 and compare John 4:14, 7:37.
38. His Prophetic office. Deuteronomy 18:18 and compare John 7:16, 8:28.
39. His Priestly activities. "Moses and Aaron among His priests" (Ps. 99:6). Illustrations are found in Leviticus 8: "And Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar... and he took all the fat... and burned it upon the altar" (vv. 15, 16 and see 19:23). So Christ, as Priest, "offered Himself without spot to God" (Heb. 9:14).
40. His Kingly rule. "Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. And he was king in Jeshurun" (Deut. 33:4, 5). So Christ is King in Zion, and will yet be over the Jews (Luke 1:32, 33).
41. His Judgeship. "Moses sat to judge the people: and they stood by Moses from the morning until the evening" (Ex. 18:13). Compare 2 Corinthians 5:10.
42. His Leadership. Moses was the head and director of God’s people, as He said to him, "Lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken" (Ex. 32:34). So Christ is called, "The Captain of their salvation" (Heb. 2:10).
43. His Mediation. What a remarkable word was that of Moses to Israel, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. 5:5): "There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
44. His Election. In Psalm 106:23 he is called, "Moses His chosen". So God says of Christ, "Behold My Servant, whom I uphold, Mine elect" (Isa. 42:1).
45. His Covenant-engagement. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel" (Ex. 34:27): so Christ is denominated, "The Mediator of a better covenant" (Heb. 8:6).
46. His sending forth of the Twelve. "These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land" (Num. 13:16 see previous verses). So Christ sent forth twelve apostles (Matthew 10:5).
47. His Appointing of the Seventy. "And Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people" (Num. 11:24). So Christ selected seventy (Luke 10:1).
48. His Wisdom. "Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22). Compare Colossians 2:3.
49. His Might. "And was mighty in words and in deeds" (Acts 7:22). Behold the antitype of this in Matthew 113:34: "They were astonished, and said, Whence hath this Man this wisdom, and these mighty works"?
50. His Intercession. "And Moses brought their cause before the Lord" (Num. 27:5). Compare Hebrews 7:25.
51. His Intimate Communion with God. "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face" (Ex. 34:10). So, on earth, Christ was "The only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father" (John 1:18). It is striking to behold in Exodus 31 to 34 how Moses passed and re-passed between Jehovah in the mount and the camp of the congregation: expressive of his equal access to heaven and earth—compare John 3:13.
52. His Knowledge of God. See Psalm 103:7 and cf. John 5:20.
53. His holy Anger. See Exodus 32:19 and cf. Mark 3:5, etc.
54. His Message. He was the mouthpiece of God: "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord" (Ex. 24:3). Compare Hebrews 1:2.
55. His Commandments. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and cf. Matthew 28:20.
56. His Written Revelation. See Exodus 31:13 and cf. Revelation 1:1.
57. His Fasting. See Exodus 34:28 and cf. Matthew 4:2.
58. His Transfiguration on the mount. See Exodus 34:29, 35 and cf. Matthew 17:2.
59. His Place Outside the Camp. See Exodus 33:7 and cf. Hebrews 13:13.
60. His Arraigning of the responsible head. See Exodus 32:21 and cf. Revelation 2:12, 13.
61. His Praying for Israel’s Forgiveness. See Numbers 14:19 and cf. Luke 23:34.
62. His Washing his Brethren with Water. "And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water" (Lev. 8:6). Who can fail to see in that a foreshadowing of what is recorded in John 13:5: "After that He poureth water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet"!
63. His Prophecies. See Deuteronomy 28 and 33 and cf. Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
64. His Rewarding God’s servants. See Numbers 7:6, 32:33, 40 and cf. Revelation 22:12.
65. His perfect Obedience. "Thus did Moses according to all that the Lord commanded, so did he" (Ex. 40:16). What a lovely foreshadowing was this of Him who could say, "I have kept My Father’s commandments" (John 16:10)!
66. His erecting the Tabernacle. See Exodus 40:2, and cf. Zechariah 6:12.
67. His Completing of his Work. "So Moses finished the work" (Ex. 40:33). What a blessed prefiguration was this of Him who declared, "I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do" (John 17:4).
68. His Blessing of the People. "And Moses blessed them" (Ex. 39:43). So too we read in Luke 24:50, "And He led them out as far as to Bethany, and He lifted up His hands, and blessed them".
69. His Anointing of God’s House. "And Moses took the anointing oil (the O. T. emblem of the Holy Spirit), and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein" (Lev. 8:10). Carefully compare Acts 2:1-3, 33.
70. His Unabated Strength. "His eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated" (Deut. 34:7): compare Matthew 27:50, and note the "loud voice".
71. His Death was for the benefit of God’s people. "It went ill with Moses for their sakes" (Ps. 106:32); "But the Lord was wroth with me for your sakes" (Deut. 3:26). What marvelous foreshadowings of the Cross were these!
72. His Appointing of another Comforter. Moses did not leave his people comfortless, but gave them a successor: see Deuteronomy 31:23 and cf. John 14:16, 18.
73. His giving an Inheritance. "The land which Moses gave you on this side of Jordan" (Josh. 1:14): in Christ believers "have obtained an inheritance" (Eph. 1:11).
74. His Death necessary before Israel could enter Canaan. "Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to thee" (Josh. 1:2). "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit" (John 12:24).
75. His Second Appearing. Moses was one of the two Old Testament characters which returned to this earth in New Testament times (Matthew 17:3)—type of Christ’s second coming to the earth. Our space is already exhausted so we shall leave it with our readers to search the Scriptures for at least twenty-five other points in which Moses foreshadowed our Lord. The subject is well-nigh exhaustless. And a most blessed subject it is, demonstrating anew the Divine authorship of the Bible. May the Lord bless to many this very imperfect attempt to show that "in the volume of the Book" it is written of Christ.
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Nice try but it falls flat like a punctured tyre as most of these can also be applied to Muhammed (PBUH) and are not unique to Jesus (PBUH). eg: 67. His Completing of his Work. "So Moses finished the work" (Ex. 40:33). What a blessed prefiguration was this of Him who declared, "I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do" (John 17:4). In his last sermon the Messenger of Allah also said "Today I have completed my work unto you". My points were unique to Moses and Muhammad alone, may Allah be pleased with them, and cannot also be applied to Jesus (PBUH) e.g, they both made new laws, Jesus did not make any new law. PS I also enjoy reasoning with you and not the barbarinas like Chezpanze who restort to personal insults. So let us agrre "There is only one GOD".
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Nice try but it falls flat like a punctured tyre as most of these can also be applied to Muhammed (PBUH) and are not unique to Jesus (PBUH). eg: 67. His Completing of his Work. "So Moses finished the work" (Ex. 40:33). What a blessed prefiguration was this of Him who declared, "I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do" (John 17:4). In his last sermon the Messenger of Allah also said "Today I have completed my work unto you". My points were unique to Moses and Muhammad alone, may Allah be pleased with them, and cannot also be applied to Jesus (PBUH) e.g, they both made new laws, Jesus did not make any new law. PS I also enjoy reasoning with you and not the barbarinas like Chezpanze who restort to personal insults.
So let us agrre "There is only one GOD".
Yes Tman, we can and I do believe and agree that there is only one God, but I think we differ on who that one God is. I say Jesus Christ is that one God. There is more for you to consider. In Dt. 10:17, we read: For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes (Dt. 10:17). Jesus is YHWH of the OT Scripture, YHWH is not only God, but also Lord of lords. Yet in the NT we clearly read that Jesus is Lord of lords: They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers (Rev. 17:14). Furthermore, the NT reveals that the King of kings and Lord of lords is God: which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim. 6:15). Who then is the Lord of lords? The OT says YHWH is Lord of lords, but the NT claims the same for Jesus! Can there be two who are Lord of lords? --------------------------------------------------------------- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Let's go back to the root: I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt put no other God before me. Argument done
And that was Jesus speaking. The Bible says Jesus is Lord. Argument really done now. ---------------------------------------------- "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
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What Bible are your eading from? This is the First Commandment and the speaker is God, long before any mention of Jesus (PBUH). I have just finished working a leaflet for the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY) UK. I don't believe in coincidence, so you can put another name to it. Please read with an open mind.
Jesus, an Islamic view Did you know that it is obligatory for Muslims to believe in Jesus, or that a record of Jesus’ life and teachings is preserved in the Qur’an and sayings of Muhammad, as well as in little-known traditions handed down by Muslim communities over the centuries? Christians brought up in the West are often surprised to discover Muslims who are familiar with the life and teachings of Jesus through the teachings and scriptures of Islam, while they themselves are unlikely to have learned anything about the Prophet Muhammad at church. This is partly a matter of history: Islam incorporates the Judeo-Christian tradition and embraces Jesus in the same way that Christianity incorporates the Old Testament and embraces Moses (peace be upon them both). All three religions trace their roots to Abraham, and in fact the Qur’an and the Bible share and uphold many beliefs, practices and virtues in common -- belief in God, angels and the Day of Judgement, in the virtues of prayer, charity and fasting, and in the importance of truthfulness, patience, and love. Together, Christians and Muslims make up more than half the world’s population, and rather than being ideological opposites as some people imagine, their faiths are in many ways the most alike of the world’s major religions. This common ground is one of the reasons the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) advised the weak and poor among his early followers to seek refuge in Christian Abyssinia (present-day Ethiopia) to escape persecution by the idolatrous Arab tribes, before Islam became established in Arabia. Muslim historians’ account of the event succinctly conveys the heart of the relationship between the two faiths. When the corrupt leaders of Makkah pursued the Muslims into Africa and asked the Negus to return them, the Abyssinian ruler summoned the small community of Muslims, then asked them: “What is this religion which has caused you to become separate from your people, though you have not entered my religion or that of any other folk around us?” Their spokesman Ja’far, Muhammad’s young cousin, replied: “O King, we were a people steeped in ignorance, worshipping idols, eating unslaughtered meat, committing abominations, and the strong would devour the weak. That is how we were until God sent us a Messenger from out of our midst, one whose lineage was known to us, and whose truthfulness, trustworthiness and integrity were renowned. He called us to God – that we should testify to His Oneness, and worship Him and renounce what we and our ancestors had worshipped in the way of stones and idols; and he commanded us to speak truly, to fulfil our promises, to respect the ties of kinship and the rights of our neighbours, and to refrain from crimes and bloodshed. So we worship God alone, setting nothing beside Him, counting as forbidden what He has forbidden and as permissible what He has allowed. For these reasons have our people turned against us, and persecuted us to try to make us forsake our religion and revert from the worship of God to the worship of idols. That is why we have come to your country, having chosen you above all others, We have been happy under your protection, and it is our hope, O King, that here with you we shall not suffer wrong.” His speech was translated by the royal interpreters, after which the Negus asked if they had with them any revelation their prophet had brought them. Ja’far then recited the following verses of the Qur’an, from the chapter entitled ‘Mary’: “And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she withdrew from her people to a place towards the east, and secluded herself from them. We sent to her Our spirit (the angel Gabriel), and he appeared to her in the likeness of a perfect man. She said, ‘I seek refuge in the Compassionate God from you; (do not come near me) if you fear the Lord.’ He replied, ‘I am none other than a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a pure son.’ She said, ‘How can I have a son when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?’ He said, ‘Even so will it be; your Lord says, “This is an easy thing for Me. And We shall make him a sign for humanity and a mercy from Us. So it has been decreed.”’ (Qur’an 19: 16-21) Ja’far’s recitation and the translation of these verses brought tears to the king’s eyes. He responded: “This has truly come from the same source as that which Jesus brought.” He granted the Muslims his protection. But the tribesmen of Makkah, furious that their plans and alliances had been frustrated, decided to rouse the king’s ire against their monotheist cousins by playing up the differences between Christianity and Islam regarding Jesus. The king assembled them together once again and asked: “What do you say about Jesus, son of Mary?” Ja’far replied: “We say of him what our Prophet has brought us, namely that he is the servant of God and His Messenger, and His Spirit and Word which He cast into Mary, the blessed virgin.” The Negus then lifted his wooden staff and said: “Jesus does not exceed what you have said by the length of this stick.” The bishops present objected to the king’s judgment, but that did not deter him from granting the small Muslim community full protection, declaring: “Not for mountains of gold would I harm a single one of you”. (Adapted from Muhammad: his life based on the earliest sources, by Martin Lings). That was Christianity’s first encounter with Islam, and is how Islam first came to flourish – in Africa, under the protection of a benevolent Christian king. It may surprise some to think of any Christians accepting a description of Jesus that fell short of ‘only-begotten Son of God’ and ‘Saviour’, but the Negus would have known of the theological arguments that had raged between various sects in the Eastern birthplace of Christianity for centuries after Christ. Christians had been divided roughly into two ‘camps’ from the beginning, which can perhaps best be described as people who followed the religion of Jesus, versus those who followed a religion about Jesus. The first is exemplified by his disciples, who lived as Jews, believed in One God, and followed the Law of Moses – which Jesus had come ‘not to destroy, but to fulfil’ (Matthew 5:17). They had no concept of Jesus originating a new religion: they worshipped in the temple, and focused their efforts on spreading the good news to fellow Jews that their Messiah had come. This group further developed and became known as Arians, after Arius, a North African bishop who emphasized Jesus’ human nature. The second was led by Paul, a charismatic speaker who had never met Jesus and had persecuted many Christians before his sudden conversion. Under his leadership, Pauline Christians directed their conversion efforts towards non-Jews and developed a theology foreign to the Old Testament, including belief in a Trinity (which had been prevalent among Romans, Egyptians and other pagans), an emphasis on Jesus as the ‘son’ of God, associated concepts of original sin and atonement, and the central dogma of Jesus’ (supposed) crucifixion and resurrection. Disagreements between these and other sects had grown so great by the 4th century that the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to convene the Council of Nicea (Iznik, Turkey) in 325, to settle the matter of true belief ‘once and for all’. During this event (in which Constantine’s own trinitarian leanings were made known), the bishops of the Christian world gathered together for the first time to debate doctrine, and a draft creed espousing belief in a Trinity of ‘Father, Son and Holy Ghost’ received the most votes. Dissenting bishops were suddenly declared heretics; their writings were banned, and the gospels supporting them burned. That marked the birth of the Roman Catholic Church, state religion of the Roman empire. Tens of gospels and other writings that individual churches had been free to use, some which presented an alternative view of Jesus, were destroyed; only four were included in the New Testament collection, along with a heavy dose of Paul’s writings. Despite this totalitarian approach to achieving ‘religious unity’, a small number of dissenting Christian sects survived, together with alternative gospels that were carefully hidden and only came to light in the 20th century. Viewed in historical context, the main theological differences between Muslims and Christians are largely the same differences that have been a major source of disagreement between Christians themselves from the beginning. These concern the nature and role of Jesus, his relationship with God, and how best to venerate and follow his example. In contrast to the often contradictory passages of the New Testament, the Qur’an teaches monotheism, pure and simple: faith in One God, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, a Supreme Being without partners, associates or family members. There is no concept of an intermediary in Islam, whether priest or saviour, who must intercede between a human being and his Creator. Whatever individual Christians may understand by the term ‘son’ or ‘Father’ – whether in their minds the terms symbolize no more than a caring, loving relationship, or whether they regard belief in the Trinity as the key to avoiding eternal damnation – Islam considers that the Christian view in which Jesus is ‘idolized’ while God is ‘humanized’, obscures Jesus’ invaluable role as master teacher and role model, while vastly underestimating God’s transcendent majesty. It is impossible, indeed inconceivable to Muslims that the Almighty Creator of the Universe could appear in any human form, whole or in ‘part’, constrained by time and space. As the prophet Solomon is reported as saying after completing the Temple of Jerusalem: “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain You. How much less this temple I have built!” (I Kings 8:27) While the Qur’an, like the Bible, confirms that Jesus had no human father, it does not accept that this makes Jesus the son of God any more than it does Adam himself, who was created without either father or mother. Rather, when God decides something, ‘He need only say to it ‘Be!’ and it is’ (Q. 3:47). It is interesting to note that the term Jesus most often used of himself in the New Testament gospels is ‘son of man’ (in Hebrew, literally the ‘son of Adam’); a term that for Muslims emphasizes his human nature. The phrase ‘son of man’ also appears in the Old Testament, where it underscores man’s insignificance before God as well as the undeserved honour God has shown him: “How then can a man be righteous before God?…If even the stars are not pure in His eyes, how much less man, who is but a maggot – a son of man, who is only a worm!” (Job 25:4-6) “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, What is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him? You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings, and crowned him with glory and honour.” (Psalms 8:3-5) Many Arians, Unitarians and other like-minded Christians have argued against the existence of a trinity, basing their reasoning on passages of the Bible itself. The lack of any mention of the word or concept in the Old Testament is one of the most important, as God surely would have found it important enough to mention to Moses and the many other prophets of old. Yet the cornerstone of the Jewish faith has always been: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.” (Deut. 6:4), and: “You shall have no other gods besides Me.” (Deut. 5:7) Jesus never taught his followers to worship him, and no record exists of him preaching about a trinity. “By myself I can do nothing” (John 5:30), “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), and many similar statements of his support pure monotheism, although other passages in the New Testament contradict it. Many Christians came to the conclusion that the Biblical texts must have been corrupted, as indeed the Qur’an asserts. The reader is referred to the writings of John Biddle, father of Unitarianism, as well as others such as John Milton, Sir Isaac Newton, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin for examples of this kind of reasoning. The Qur’an speaks of ‘the Gospel’ (Injil) as a Scripture revealed to Jesus by God, from which he preached, like the Torah of Moses. It is clear from early Christian history as well as modern Biblical studies that this original Scripture has been lost forever, and the fragments that remain in the form of various gospels have been corrupted so that they do not inspire confidence. The Qur’an, which was revealed partly in order to clarify points that had been misunderstood by previous religious groups, paints a brief but clear portrait of Jesus as Messenger of God. Responding to the views of an early Christian sect known as ‘Adoptionists’, who believed that God had ‘adopted’ Jesus, the Qur’an says: “It does not befit (the majesty of) the Compassionate God that He should adopt a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but shall come to the Compassionate One as a servant.” (Q. 19:92-93)
“O People of the Scripture, do not exaggerate or go to extremes in your religion, or say anything about God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than an (honoured) Messenger of God, and His word that He imparted to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers and do not say, ‘Three (in One).’ Cease, for your own good! For your Lord is One God; Glory be to Him – (He is far) above having a son! All that is in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. And God is Sufficient as Guardian (of the affairs of the universe). The Messiah would never scorn to be a servant of God, nor would the angels who are near (to Him)…” (Q. 4;171-2)
The Angel Gabriel announced to the Virgin Mary the miraculous nature of the child she was to bear by saying: “O Mary, God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, held in high honour in this world and the Next, and one of those brought near (to Him). “He will speak to people in his cradle and in the prime of manhood, and he is one of the righteous… “…(God) will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel, “And (will appoint him as) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying), ‘I come to you with a miracle from your Lord (as proof of my message). I will make the likeness of a bird for you out of clay; (then) I will breathe into it and, by God’s permission, it shall become a (living) bird. And by God’s permission I will give sight to those born blind, and heal the leper, and raise the dead to life. And I will inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Surely that is a sign for you, if you are believers. “And (I come to you) confirming (what has been sent down before me in) the Torah, and in order to make some of the things which were forbidden (in the past) lawful for you. I came to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me. “God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Q. 3: 45-51) Some of these miracles are unfamiliar to modern readers of the Bible, but the accounts do appear in the ‘Infancy Gospels’, which enjoyed wide circulation in Eastern churches for centuries. Another point of contention surrounding the life of Jesus has been that of the crucifixion: whereas Christians have regarded it as an essential point of faith, Jews took it as proof that Jesus was not the promised Messiah, since God would not have allowed His chosen one to suffer such humiliation at the hands of his enemies. The Islamic position is that the crucifixion of Jesus never happened, although it appeared to. . We may note that the descriptions given in the New Testament gospels of the crucifixion cannot be considered accurate eyewitness accounts since, in their words, ‘all the disciples fled’ when Jesus was arrested. The work of modern Biblical scholars lends support to the Islamic position. They have established that the earliest (original) gospels make no mention of either crucifixion or resurrection, but focus instead on Jesus’ teachings and miracles. The Qur’an says: “(The Jews who rejected Jesus earned God’s displeasure) because of their denying the truth and slandering Mary with a terrible accusation; and because of their (boasting) claim, ‘We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, God’s Messenger!’ They neither killed him nor crucified him, though it was made to appear that way to them. Those who disagree about this (matter) are full of doubts; they have no knowledge about it except to follow guesswork and speculation, but they certainly did not kill him. Rather, God raised him up to Himself; and God is ever Mighty, Wise. There is not one of the People of the Scripture who will not believe in him (as he should be believed in) before his death (e.g. after his Second Coming), and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness against them.” (Q. 4:156-9) The most prevalent interpretation of these verses among Muslim scholars is that someone else (such as the traitor Judas Iscariot) was crucified instead, while Jesus was raised to heaven, as God often saves those beloved to Him. The Prophet Muhammad taught that Jesus will return to earth one day to rule in peace and justice, although Islamic prophecies on the subject differ from Christian ones.
The historical Jesus: Messiah, Messenger, Wise Teacher and Prophet The Islamic view of Jesus is a logical and reasonable one, which is consistent with earlier Biblical teachings, and people today can relate to: he was a virtuous and wise teacher; an ascetic who taught by personal example and spoke without fear against corruption in high places; prophet and Messiah of the Jewish people, who healed and brought the dead to life by God’s permission; an honoured Messenger of God. Rather than being sent to found a new religion, he came to ‘breathe life’ into and revitalise the interpretation of Mosaic Law.
Teachings of Jesus as related by generations of Muslims Stories related by Muslims about Jesus are plentiful, and highlight his role as teacher of wisdom. A few examples are: Jesus said: “Do not hang jewels around the necks of swine. Wisdom is finer than gems, and those who do not value it are worse than swine.” Jesus said: ”A plant can only grow in yielding earth, not on hard rock. In the same way, wisdom flourishes only in a humble heart, not one which is proud and unyielding.” (The above and many other sayings are related by the classical Muslim scholar Al-Ghazali in his Revival of the Religious Sciences. For translations of and information on other gospels, see The Complete Gospels, edited by R.J. Miller.) The Prophet Muhammad spoke with much affection and respect of Jesus, and taught Muslims to do the same. Relating some of Jesus’ teachings, he said: “Jesus, son of Mary, used to say, “Do not speak much without mentioning God, for your hearts will become hardened. A hard heart is far from God, if you only knew.” “Do not look at the wrong actions of others as though you were lords; look at your own wrong actions as if you were slaves.” And Muhammad emphasised the true and common message of Christianity and Islam, saying: “Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all people to Jesus, son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.”
Islam’s invitation to Christians Many Arab Christians converted to Islam during and soon after Muhammad’s lifetime because they recognised the simple truth of his message, and were convinced that New Testament passages foretelling the appearance of a ‘Comforter’ and other Biblical prophecies referred to him. Those who seek a truly historical prophet, whose life and teachings have been lovingly and meticulously preserved in remarkable detail, may wish to learn more about Muhammad – another great leader who continues to be widely misunderstood, especially in the West. We conclude with the words of the Qur’an: “Say, ‘O People of the Scripture, let us) come to an agreement together: that we will worship none but God, and that we will not associate any (other god) with Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides God.’ And if they turn away, then say, ‘Bear witness that we are (the ones who have surrendered to Him, as) Muslims.” (Q. 3:64)
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Come back Noel, all is forgiven
Tman, does the Bible, which is the earliest and most historically reliable source, actually say Jesus is God? What does it tell us about Jesus and His identity? Let’s take a brief look at a few of the many passages that clearly and consistently answer that question, straight from the pages of Scripture. We’ll begin by going back an additional 700 years before the life of Christ, to the Old Testament book of Isaiah.
Jesus is God – Prophecies Divine Messiah predicted in the Old Testament Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”1
“Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”
This Messiah would be born a human son, but have a higher nature Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
This was a radical statement coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet -- especially calling a human being “Mighty God”; but one that God fulfilled centuries later in Christ.
A couple hundred years later, but still more than half a millennium before Jesus walked the earth, more was predicted about the Messiah’s divine nature Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
“Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him.
Jesus is God – His Earthly Ministry
The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”
Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.
Jesus accepted worship from His disciples Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”
In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh.
Jesus’ claim about Himself John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”
This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!
Another of Jesus’ claims of deity John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”
It couldn’t be clearer than it is here: Jesus’ highly educated listeners understood His claim of deity. They only had two possible responses: to humble themselves and bow before Him as the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. Unfortunately they chose the latter option. But notice that Jesus doesn’t argue with their accusation, because it was accurate. He really was claiming to be God!
Thomas’ response to the resurrected Jesus John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
This disciple realized, because of Jesus’ resurrection, who Jesus really was -- and humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship.
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Tman, does the Bible, which is the earliest and most historically reliable source, actually say Jesus is God? [/quote]
Your argument falls at the first hurdle. The Bible is so full of mistakes and inaccuracies it would be impossible for me to repeat them here. You cannot rely on it. I invite you to the one Book which God promised to protect and which has not changed one dot or letter since it was revealed, The Holy Qur'an.
Even if you were to quote ever passage that "alludes" to Jesus (PBUH) as God and not one where he says plainly IN HIS OWN WORDS, "I am God, worship me" you cannot convince me. Allegations and hearsay is not proof of so important a subject as it can be intreperted in many ways. If that was his message and mission he would have made it clear on more than one occasion, and you cant point to even ONE time he said this.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Tman, does the Bible, which is the earliest and most historically reliable source, actually say Jesus is God? [/quote]
Your argument falls at the first hurdle. The Bible is so full of mistakes and inaccuracies it would be impossible for me to repeat them here. You cannot rely on it. I invite you to the one Book which God promised to protect and which has not changed one dot or letter since it was revealed, The Holy Qur'an.
Even if you were to quote ever passage that "alludes" to Jesus (PBUH) as God and not one where he says plainly IN HIS OWN WORDS, "I am God, worship me" you cannot convince me. Allegations and hearsay is not proof of so important a subject as it can be intreperted in many ways. If that was his message and mission he would have made it clear on more than one occasion, and you cant point to even ONE time he said this. [/quote]
The Bible promises that all eyes shall see Him. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, Tman it's best that you bow your knees and confess now before it's too late.
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Come now Noel, when you have no answer you resort to quote you learned by rote. Here are the exact words of Jesus (PBUH) as taken from the Bible. lets hear some reasonable explanation and not another quote. Jesus, says: "And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3 Explain "YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD".
Another "son of God"?
Melchizedek, A god greater than Jesus?
In the Bible we can read about another god. His name is Melchizedek (or Melchisedec). He is first mentioned in Genesis
"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
Genesis 14:18-20
This in itself may not be all that significant until we read Hebrews
"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils."
Hebrews 7:1-4
Is this God's brother? Is this God's cousin? Is this a completely different God? For these are certainly divine attributes. According to the Bible in our hands today, Jesus (pbuh) had a beginning (he was "begotten"), and an end "he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46). This mighty being, however, is alleged to have had neither. It is stated plainly here in the Bible, that he was "made like unto the son of God." Why do they not worship him then? The church now will allege that Jesus peace be upon him was "begotten" by God. Tell us what you mean when you say "begotten." What did God Almighty do to "beget" Jesus (pbuh)? Further, if Jesus (pbuh) was "begotten," but Melchisedec who was "made like unto the Son of God," was not, then does this not make Jesus (pbuh) a "son of God" but Melchisedec an independent god with neither offspring nor parents? Is a god with no parents not greater than one who needs parents? Where is Melchisedec now?
From these verses we get the following picture:
1. Melchizedec is equal to the Son of God 2. Melchizedec's ministry is eternal 3. Melchizedec, unlike Jesus (pbuh), is an independent god, with neither father nor mother. 4. Melchizedec, unlike Jesus (pbuh), was never "born" or "begotten" but was ever present. 5. Melchizedec, unlike Jesus (pbuh), will never die but is eternally without death. 6. Everything but God has a beginning of days. Even air, water, and food have a beginning of days. Melchizedec, however, does not. Therefore, he is claimed to not need God nor water, food, nor air to breathe.
Does this not sound preposterous? Notice how when Jesus (pbuh), a man, is preached as being a god most people have no trouble with that. They are willing to see proof of his godhead even where it can not be found (see chapter one). This is because this is a well established doctrine in Paul's church. However, when the same Bible tells them in no uncertain terms that another man, Melchisedec, is a god, then they are willing to "interpret" the verses fifty different ways and attach to them all manner of abstract interpretations to disprove this claim since Melchisedec "cannot possibly" be a god. Why? Because the church has not told us to worship Melchizedec?. If the Bible remains the word of God then why should we place the words of men (the church) above the words of God?
Another thing for you to explain: Who was "Immanuel"?
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God is with us)."
Isaiah 7:14
Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe in Jesus (pbuh) as a true and faithful prophet of God. For this reason, Muslims have no trouble believing that prophets of the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus (pbuh). However, as we have already seen in chapter two, over the ages mankind continued to feel the need to embroider and improve upon the word of God. This was not restricted to merely inserting, deleting, or changing words as seen in previous chapters, rather, they even went so far as to try to "prove" their innovations through the citation of other ancient passages. There are many examples of this. One such example shall be studied here.
When members of the clergy read to their flock the verse of Isaiah 7:14, they then go on to explain to them: "Do you see? Prophet Isaiah prophesied the coming of the God Himself. Immanuel means 'God is with us,' so this is not only a prophesy of the coming of God but also a prophesy of the 'incarnation' of God Almighty in the form of Jesus".
It is true, Immanuel does mean "God is with us." However, this is a prime example of how the evangelists manage to constantly base their arguments on catch words or phrases and then quickly gloss over the details.
The phrase "a virgin" which we find in our English Bibles does not appear in the original Hebrew text. The word used is 'almah {al-maw'} meaning "a young woman of marriageable age". The Hebrew word for "virgin" is bthuwlah {beth-oo-law'}. When the Hebrew text is translated into Greek in the NT, it uses the word parthenos {per-then'-os}, which has a dual meaning; a young girl or a virgin. The translators have mistakenly chosen the latter. More recent and accurate versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version present this verse as follows:
"Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Isaiah 7:14 (RSV)
Biblical scholars have suggested that this prophesy was concerning the second son or possibly the third son of Isaiah by a Jewish maiden. It does not relate to Jesus or his virgin birth.
If Jesus (pbuh) was indeed intended by this prophesy, then why was he named "Jesus" and not "Immanuel" as the prophesy requires? Notice that the prophesy states that "his NAME shall be Immanuel." It does not say that "HE shall be Immanuel." There is a big difference between saying "His name shall be 'God is with us'" and between saying "He shall be God with us."
"Immanuel" is not the only name in the OT that contains the word "El" (God). There are hundreds of Hebrew names that consist of "El" and another noun. For example, "Ishmael" which means "God hears." Did God's sense of hearing come down to earth and live among us in the form of a man? Was God's sense of hearing "incarnated" in the form of a man?. There is also "Israel" (prince of God), and "Elijah" (my God is Jehovah), and so forth. As we can see, it was a very common occurrence for Israelites to have such names. Neither prophet Isaiah, nor King Ahaz, nor any Jew ever thought that the prophesy was for God himself to come down and live among them.
In Genesis 28:19 we read "And he called the name of that place Bethel (house of God)". Since the place was named "house of God," does this mean that God lived inside this house?
In Genesis 32:30, we are told that Jacob (pbuh) called a piece of land "Peni-el" (Face of God). The actual text states: "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel," is this the same as saying: "And Jacob said this place is Peniel"? Was the patch of land the actual face of God? Was the face of God "incarnated" in this piece of land?
Gabriel, the name of the angle of God, has been interpreted in Biblical references as having the general meaning of "Strength of God." So, does this mean that the angle Gabriel is the "incarnation" of the "strength of God"?
"The name Immanuel could mean 'God be with us' in the sense 'God help us!'"
Interpreter's dictionary of the Bible, V2, p. 686.
Jesus (pbuh) was given his name by the angel Gabriel even before his birth (Matthew 1:21). Never was he named "Immanuel." King Ahaz was in danger. His enemies were closing in. This is when a promise was made to show him a sign, a pregnant woman, not a virgin Mary (pbuh) who would not show up until many centuries after he had turned to dust. Can we see how the Trinitarian doctrine of incarnation was forced upon the message of Jesus (pbuh) through "bending" of the prophesies and general glossing over of the "trivial details"?
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
