I would like to note Noel that you believe that God had a son named Jesus by Mary, and he was God, he walked the earth, he is supposed to be God, but yet God is not a man, how ridiculous this arguement is, he was supposedly crusified and arose from the dead, and is waiting somewhere in the sky to come back and change the world after 2000 years, what have you been smokeing.
And to those who want to debate wheter or not Jesus of 2000 years ago was a black man is realy another joke, if his complexion was not an issue, then why did the pope commission micheal angelo to repaint the picture to make him look white, some of you are so weak you would think it offensive to white folks to tell the truth that the Jesus of 2000 years ago was an original man, feet like burnish brass in an oven, and eyes like burning cole, and hair like lambs wool, any thing you put in fire what becomes of it, and black is not a colour anyway, white is a colour, so the white man is the coloured man, black is the essence from wich all colours come from.
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
[quote The simple answer as to why Jesus didn’t simply come out and say, "I am God" is because of the confusion this would have caused the Jews living at that time. Noted New Testament Scholar and Catholic Theologian Raymond E. Brown states it best:
That is the poorest excuse I have ever heard. So in order not to offend the Jews, which he did any way, he has left confusion for the rest of humanity till the Last Day before it is cleared up!!! And was the world without God when Jesus (PBUH) died on the cross as you believe? The emphasis on the Qur'an in the Arabic was not because it is/was a pure language , but it was the local language of the people it was revealed to so it was easy for them to understand. Why the Quran is regarded as pure and un-currupted is because God says in says it many times that He would guard it from curruption. And many Qurans from that time still exist toady and can be seen in museums all over the world, and not just in Islamic countries too. Of course it is translated in many languages, as you would expect for one of the world's most popular religions. But unlike the Bible, we have the ORIGINAL text to compare the translation to. Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible: Deut 18:18. Discuss.
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Originally Posted By: Noel2000
[quote The simple answer as to why Jesus didn’t simply come out and say, "I am God" is because of the confusion this would have caused the Jews living at that time. Noted New Testament Scholar and Catholic Theologian Raymond E. Brown states it best:
That is the poorest excuse I have ever heard. So in order not to offend the Jews, which he did any way, he has left confusion for the rest of humanity till the Last Day before it is cleared up!!! And was the world without God when Jesus (PBUH) died on the cross as you believe?
It is impossible for us to know conclusively whether God exists and what He is like unless He takes the initiative and reveals Himself. We must know what He is like and His attitude toward us. Suppose we knew He existed, but that He was like Adolf Hitler -- capricious, vicious, prejudiced, and cruel. What a horrible realization that would be!
We must scan the horizon of history to see if there is any clue to God's revelation. There is one clear clue. In an obscure village in Palestine, almost 2,000 years ago, a Child was born in a stable. Today the entire world is still celebrating the birth of Jesus.
He lived in obscurity until He was thirty, and then began a public ministry that lasted three years. It was destined to change the course of history. He was a kindly person and we're told that "the common people heard Him gladly." And, "He taught as One who had authority, and not as their teachers of the Law" (Matthew 7:29).
The Life of Jesus Christ. Is Jesus God? It soon became apparent, however, that He was making shocking and startling statements about Himself. He began to identify Himself as far more than a remarkable teacher or prophet. He began to say clearly that He was God. He made His identity the focal point of His teaching. The all-important question He put to those who followed Him was, "Who do you say I am?" When Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:15-16), Jesus was not shocked, nor did He rebuke Peter. On the contrary, He commended him!
He made the claim explicitly, and His hearers got the full impact of His words. We are told, "The Jews tried all the harder to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
On another occasion he said, "I and My Father are One." Immediately the Jews wanted to stone Him. He asked them for which good work they wanted to kill Him. They replied, "We are not stoning You for any of these but for blasphemy, because You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33).
Jesus clearly claimed attributes which only God has. When a paralyzed man was let down through the roof wanting to be healed by Him, He said, "Son, your sins are forgiven you." This caused a great to-do among the religious leaders, who said in their hearts, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
At the critical moment when His life was at stake, the high priest put the question to Him directly: "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. "You have heard the blasphemy" (Mark 14:61-64).
The emphasis on the Qur'an in the Arabic was not because it is/was a pure language , but it was the local language of the people it was revealed to so it was easy for them to understand. Why the Quran is regarded as pure and un-currupted is because God says in says it many times that He would guard it from curruption. And many Qurans from that time still exist toady and can be seen in museums all over the world, and not just in Islamic countries too. Of course it is translated in many languages, as you would expect for one of the world's most popular religions. But unlike the Bible, we have the ORIGINAL text to compare the translation to. Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible: Deut 18:18. Discuss.
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Originally Posted By: Marklon
I would like to note Noel that you believe that God had a son named Jesus by Mary, and he was God, he walked the earth, he is supposed to be God, but yet God is not a man, how ridiculous this arguement is, he was supposedly crusified and arose from the dead, and is waiting somewhere in the sky to come back and change the world after 2000 years, what have you been smokeing.
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Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
Jesus of 2000 years ago born of a virgin Mary, he walked the city of palestine as a man, yet you believe he was the son of God and God himself at the same time, was crusified and rose from the dead, and is waiting some where in the sky for two thousand years, and is gonna appear in the last days and make every thing Irie. " GIMMI DI WEED DI GOOD Ganga weed, think about what you have been taught.
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
[
"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible: Deut 18:18. Discuss.
[/quote]
Taken form you own quote: In his own words: "YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN" can it be made any clearer? "Some have eyes yet they see not." Deut: 18: 18 still open to discuss. Will give you time to find some reference to it as you don't seem to have your own opinion on anything.
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Noel: just a few quotes from the Bible: God is not a man Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
David was also anointed 2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
Other sons of God # Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
# Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD #
# Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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If you are a true Muslim, then you are sincerely seeking the one and only true God. Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples, was also a true seeker and asked Jesus, "How can we know the way (to God)?" In John 14:6 Jesus replied, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." He is the Messiah, the healer, the Savior and forgiver of sins. In Matthew 9:2 He said to the paralyzed man before He healed him, "Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." The greatest need you and I have in life is the forgiveness of our sins and deliverance from guilt. Friend, read with me these wonderful words from God's holy book, I John 1:5-9: This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: just a few quotes from the Bible: God is not a man Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
David was also anointed 2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
Other sons of God # Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
# Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD #
# Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
All Born again Christians who are Washed in the blood of Jesus Christ are called sons of God, Jesus is not just a son, He is " the only Begotten son"
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: just a few quotes from the Bible: God is not a man Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
David was also anointed 2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
Other sons of God # Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
# Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD #
# Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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Originally Posted By: Noel2000
Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel: just a few quotes from the Bible: God is not a man Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
David was also anointed 2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
Other sons of God # Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
# Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD #
# Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The very reason that Jesus came to this earth is to restore man's identity. That is why in Ephesians 2:12-15 the bible gives us hope, "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." According to the bible, you cannot automatically be a child of God just because you are a human being or just because you like God. It happens only when one accepts and believes what Jesus did on the cross to reconcile us back to God. Notice in the above scripture that the Lord wants to use His creative power to make one new man! Hallelujah! When you become a believer and restore your fellowship with God, you will be a new creation! "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:15-17.
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Noel "The Ducker" as in ducking the questions. All you are doing is quoting form the Bible and repeating things you have learned in Sunday school about what OTHER PEOPLE said about Jesus (PBUH) and not what Jesus (PBUH) himself said i.e. "I am the son of man", so we're just going around in circles and mi tired fe chase yu fi answer the question. Ducking also the challenge of Deut: 18:18. Step up and reason on your own, not repeat by rote. "The very reason that Jesus came to this earth is to restore man's identity." You keep changing the reason Jesus (PBUH) came on earth. Note he did not say "I forgive your sins" but "your sins are forgiven" can you see the difference? Explain the meaning of "begotten".
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Originally Posted By: Tman
Noel "The Ducker" as in ducking the questions. All you are doing is quoting form the Bible and repeating things you have learned in Sunday school about what OTHER PEOPLE said about Jesus (PBUH) and not what Jesus (PBUH) himself said i.e. "I am the son of man", so we're just going around in circles and mi tired fe chase yu fi answer the question. Ducking also the challenge of Deut: 18:18. Step up and reason on your own, not repeat by rote. "The very reason that Jesus came to this earth is to restore man's identity." You keep changing the reason Jesus (PBUH) came on earth. Note he did not say "I forgive your sins" but "your sins are forgiven" can you see the difference?
Explain the meaning of "begotten".
The expression "only begotten" is an interesting phrase, especially as it applies to Jesus.
The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).
Only begotten as applied to Jesus. The scriptures teach that God's people are "sons of God" (Rom. 8: 14). Modernists contend that Jesus was simply another son of God. Not so! Jesus' Sonship was understood as indicative of deity (Jn. 10: 36, 38). Monogenes is used of Jesus' Sonship. Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (I Jn. 4: 9). "Single of its kind," comments Thayer, "…used of Christ, denotes the only Son of God or who in the sense in which he himself is the Son of God has no brethren…he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him children of God" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pgs. 417, 418). Beloved, God's people are adopted "sons of God," Jesus is the only Son of God by nature (cp. Rom. 8: 14-16).
As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). The only begotten declared God (Jn. 1: 18). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). The only begotten is the ultimate expression of God's love (Jn. 3: 16, I Jn. 4: 9). Moreover, we must believe in the only begotten Son of God (Jn. 3: 18, 16).
Hence, Jesus is uniquely and singularly the Son of God - the only one of his kind. To realize the only begotten Son of God gave his life for you and me is indeed most humbling.
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Ducker: cut and paste again. Same could be said of Adam, single one of his kind. Is he "God" too? Adam and Eve were forgiven so no-one was born with "original sin" so no need for anyone to give his life for me or you, Islam teaches. How can a baby just coming out of the womb be tainted with sin? Deut 18:18 don't find the cut and paste answer yet?
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Noel: Since you like cut and pastes you should enjoy this: 1.2.2.7 John 10:30
The third verse which Christians claim validates the doctrine of the trinity is the verse of John 10:30
"I and my father are one."
This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
John 10:23-30
In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
Need more proof? Then read:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
John 17:20-22
Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"?
Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:
"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"
1 Corinthians 6:15-17
And also
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:6
And
"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
Once we read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:4
"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. As we shall soon see, he was completely ignorant of where his teachings would later lead, and how decades later, they would be the foundations which would spawn the "Trinity" doctrine. BUT HE DOESN'T NEED TO SAY IT
Mr. J., you say: "Does Jesus say, 'I am God'? No." I am glad we agree. "...because that would have been misunderstood. Jesus is not the Father (as it would have been thought), Jesus is the Son." What?, are you claiming that Jesus is incapable when telling his disciples "worship the Father" to add the words "...and the Son"? Are you claiming that the people he is talking to are incapable of comprehending that one is the father and the other is the son? Would you have us believe that his twelve apostles were so dense that they could not comprehend the difference between a "father" and a "son"? Are there no words in his language to say "I am not God but His son, worship both of us"? When you claim that Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, do you misunderstand this to mean that God the "Father" is the one who died on the cross? When you claim that Jesus was "begotten" by God, do you misunderstand this to mean that Jesus begat the Father? Are Jesus' twelve hand-picked apostles truly in you estimation so backward and dense? This is not how Muslims regard them.
With regard to the miracles of Jesus being proof of his Godhead please read my comments about other prophets and their miracles (Section 2.2.3).
What you appear to be trying to say is that the fact that Jesus never told anyone to worship him nor claimed to be God but left it up to them to surmise by themselves is proof that he wanted them to worship him? God must command us to worship him, and Jesus must command us to worship God, but Jesus (pbuh) receives worship "without censure" without asking for it? Why then is the same not true for God Himself? Why did God Himself not simply remain quiet (like Jesus) and expect us to "gather" and "observe" that He wishes us to worship Him. Why does God Himself not receive "without censure" worship until He asks for it? Why?
With regard to the opening verses of John, they have already been dealt with in detail.
Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime told anyone to worship him. It was others who did that. Quite the contrary, whenever Jesus (pbuh) spoke of worship, he always attributed it to God and never himself: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" Luke 4:8. Notice the words: "Him ONLY." Jesus did not say "US only," or "Him and I only." How could he possibly make it more clear than that? What abstract meaning are we now going to concoct for this verse to show that what Jesus "really" meant was "worship BOTH of us"?
The problem with many apologists is that they "interpret" the words "he" and "him" to mean "we" and "us" when it suits them, and to mean "he" and "him" only when it suits them. In cases such as Luke 4:8, they claim that "him" really means "us." But in cases where God "begets" Jesus, or where God "sacrifices" Jesus, "him" and "he" is God alone and does not mean "us" and "we." Notice the trend ?
WORSHIP THE FATHER
1. "Jesus saith unto her, ... worship the Father" John 4:2. 2. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship HIM" John 4:23. Notice: "worship the FATHER," not "worship the Father AND THE SON." Also notice: "worship HIM" not "worship US" or "worship ME." 3. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21. 4. "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Matthew 22:37.
Strangely enough, even though Jesus is regarded as the "incarnation" of God, and wholly equal to God in every respect, and all three are "one" God, still, no one has ever gone on and attempted to explain if this is so why Jesus would then need to pray, let alone to his own self:
1. "And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will but as thou [wilt]." Matthew 26:39 2. "He (Jesus) went away again the second time, and prayed (to another side of his 'triune' self?), saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." Matthew 26:42 3. "And he (Jesus) left them, and went away again, and prayed (to whom? To himself?) the third time, saying the same words." Matthew 26:44 4. "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he (Jesus) went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." Mark 1:35 5. "And he (Jesus) went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him." Mark 14:35 6. "And again he (Jesus) went away, and prayed, and spake the same words." Mark 14:39 7. "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed." Luke 5:16 8. "And he (Jesus) was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed," Luke 22:41
etc.
If Jesus (pbuh) "is" God, and if both are different names for one "triune" God, and if all three "persons" are "co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial," then is Jesus praying to himself? Is he praying to another side of his own personality? Is he praying to his own essence? Why? Why does the "incarnation" of God need to pray, beseech, sweat, and plead with his own essence? If I have both a father and a number of sons, then can my "fatherly" nature plead with my "sonly" nature to save it from danger? Why? For what purpose?
"Many will say to me (Jesus) in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:22 BUT PEOPLE "WORSHIPPED" JESUS AND HE DID NOT OBJECT
With regard to John 9:38 "Lord. I believe, and he worshipped him." and Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him." Please note that the word translated as "worshipped" in both verses is the GREEK word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is (and I quote): "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation.
However, the above two verses of John and Matthew are not the only two verses of the Bible were such selective translation techniques are employed in order to impress upon the reader a chosen doctrine. For example, in the "Gospel of Matthew" the English "translation" records that Jesus was "worshipped" by Magi that came from the East (2:11); by a ruler (9:18) , by boat people (14:33), by a Canaanite woman (15:24), by the mother of the Zebedees (20:20); and by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:9) to name but a very few.
Since worshipping any one other than God is a fundamental sin, therefore, the reader understands that Jesus was God since he condoned them "worshipping" him. Since Jesus (pbuh) never once in the whole Bible ever told anyone "worship me!" (as God Himself does in many places), therefore, once again, we are told that Jesus was "hinting" that he wants us to worship him. However, as we can plainly see, what the author was in fact saying in these verses is that these people "fell at Jesus' feet," or that these people "knelt before Jesus."
How then shall we interpret their "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Far from it! Let us ask the Bible to explain:
"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."
1 Samuel 25:23-24
When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. Similarly,
"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
2 Kings 4:37
"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."
Genesis 50:18
"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"
2 Samuel 19:18
"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see for example Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). The second meaning is used more frequently in England than, for example, in the United States. However, the first remains the most popular and well known meaning in any English speaking country. Even at that, in Britain it is not at all uncommon even in this age to find the British addressing their nobles as "your worship."
What the translators have done when translating these verse is that they have "technically" translated the word correctly, however, the true meaning of this word is now completely lost.
Finally, in order to seal the proof of this matter and to dispel any lingering doubt that may remain in the reader's mind, the reader is encouraged to obtain a copy of the "New English Bible." In it they will find the translations of the quoted verses to read:
1. "bowed to the ground" (2:11); 2. "fell at his feet" (14:33); 3. "falling prostrate before him" (28:9), and 4. "fell prostrate before him" (28:17)...etc.
Please also read the translation of these verses in "The Complete Bible, an American Translation" By Edward Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith where they are once again honestly translated as:
1. "they threw themselves down and did homage to him" (2:11), 2. "fell down before him"(14:33), 3. "and they went up to him and clasped his feed and bowed to the ground before him" (28:9), and 4. "bowed down before him"(28:17), etc.
Once again, we remember that such sublime manipulation of the translation in order to establish with the reader a chosen doctrine was exposed by God in the noble Qur'an. The Qur'an says:
"There is among them a party who distort the Scripture with their tongues that you might think that it is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from God,' but it is not from God; and they speak a lie against God, and [well] they know it!"
The Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78 1.2.3.10
HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
The above is the King James "translation" of John 3:16. If we were to open up the Revised Standard Version of the Bible on this exact same verse we would find it now translated as
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, ...."
What is going on here? The RSV is the work of thirty two Biblical Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations. They produced the RSV in an effort to correct the "many" and "serious" errors they had found in the King James Bible. So why have they scrapped the word "begotten" from this cornerstone of Christian preaching? The reason is because they have decided to be honest with us when translating this verse.
The Greek term for "begotten" in ancient Greek is "gennao" {ghen-nah'-o} as found for example in Matthew 1:2. In the verses under consideration, however, the word used was not "gennao" but "monogenes" {mon-og-en-ace'}.
"Monogenes" is a Greek word which conveys the meaning "unique" and not "begotten." Thus, the true translation of this verse is "His unique son."
Some of the more honest translations of the Bibles, such as the New Testament by Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith (published in 1923) have indeed given the same translation as that of the RSV. However, such "tell it as it is" Bibles were not generally met with a lot of enthusiasm since they forced the reader to face the fact that much of what the translators of the KJV have "translated" for them was not in fact part of the Bible.
We have already seen in previous sections that the Bible bears witness that God has "sons" by the tons. So what does the Bible mean by "only son" or "unique son" when referring to Jesus? It means what the Bible has told us and the Qur'an has confirmed for us, namely, that Jesus was "unique" in that he was born of a human mother without a father. God merely said to him "Be!" and he was.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
John 17:3.
The word ‘qur’an’ means ‘recitation’, and the first verse of the Qur’an to be revealed by the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad was a command to ‘Read (or recite)! In the name of your Lord…’ This directive to a man who, like most people of the time, could neither read nor write, marked the beginning of a new age in human communication, learning, and development. Whereas earlier Scriptures had been written and passed down by elite circles of priests and scribes - usually long after the death of the religion’s founder - the preservation of the Qur’an was a community effort from the beginning, and it was completed during the Prophet Muhammad’s own lifetime.
The Prophet’s early followers eagerly memorised and recorded each new revelation as it was revealed; by the time he passed away, thousands had memorised the entire Qur’an by heart. Within two years after the Prophet’s death, the first caliph Abu Bakr requested the Prophet’s secretary Zayd to collect all existing copies and fragments of the Qur’an in one place, in order to compile a standard edition. This manuscript became the basis for the authorised editions that were distributed to each Muslim province during the rule of ‘Uthman, third caliph; remarkably, a few of those early manuscripts have been preserved and can still be viewed in museums today.
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu (Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
