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#142720 - 10/27/09 09:33 AM
AMAZING GRACE
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
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AMAZING GRACE
John Newton (1725–1807)
John P. Rees (1828–1900), stanza 5
THE GIFT of forgiveness is often best appreciated by those who need it the most. The Reverend John Newton experienced this truth firsthand. His tombstone tells the story: “John Newton, clerk, once an infidel and Libertine, a servant of slavers in Africa, was, by the rich mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had so long labored to destroy.” These words were written by Newton himself, a testimony to God’s transforming power. After years as a hardened slave trader, that “wretch” met Jesus Christ and abruptly turned to defend the gospel he had so long despised.
Throughout Newton’s years of ministry, God’s amazing grace remained central to Newton’s thinking. When it was suggested he retire (at age eighty-two!) due to poor health and a failing memory, he responded, “My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior!”
Amazing grace! how sweet the sound—
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind but now I see.
‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!
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#142723 - 10/27/09 09:58 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Marklon
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Posts: 367
Loc: nj-bergen-usa
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It is easy to assume things based on what may seem as what would be recognized as asking for forgiveness, but there is a process, it is easy to say i have changed, but the creator weighs our actions and if the evil that you do out weight the good then surley the creator will find you weighing in the balance.
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#142727 - 10/27/09 11:11 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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It is easy to assume things based on what may seem as what would be recognized as asking for forgiveness, but there is a process, it is easy to say i have changed, but the creator weighs our actions and if the evil that you do out weight the good then surley the creator will find you weighing in the balance.
WE CAN BE CONFIDENT THAT OUR SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN IN CHRIST.
Jesus was giving the disciples their Spirit-powered and Spirit-guided mission-to preach the Good News about Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven. The disciples did not have the power to forgive sins (only God can forgive sins), but Jesus gave them the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message. All believers have this same privilege. We can announce the forgiveness of sin with certainty when we find repentance and faith.
BIBLE READING: John 13:31-38
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. (John 13:34)
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#142772 - 10/28/09 11:24 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Marklon
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Posts: 367
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I thimk that a lot of things are taken out of context in both the bible and the QURAN. And evidently it is the way those that gave us religion as slaves gave us a watered down version of the gospel (Engil), to make us better tools of servant to them. As Jesus put it you have to pick up your own cross, change comes from the heart, so there is no Jesus waiting some where out there waiting to come and change our raggedy buts, he was an example for us to follow, that is why he is seen coming with a sword dripping with blood, and he is not killing mosquitos, he already preached, a just god would not cause his swrvant to die for what Adam started thousand of years before Jesus of two thousand years ago.
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#142773 - 10/28/09 11:33 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Marklon
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And GOD does not love everybody, in one conversation Jesus had a conversation with his disciples, where he said love thy neighbour, and some preacher left out the most important part, you cant love every body, you cant serve two masters you must love one and hate the other, the love of this world is enmity with God, anyway the smart fella asked "Good Master who is thy neighbour?, and Jesus began to tell the story of the good samaritian who did the neighbourly thing.
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#142777 - 10/28/09 12:55 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Noel2000
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And GOD does not love everybody, in one conversation Jesus had a conversation with his disciples, where he said love thy neighbour, and some preacher left out the most important part, you cant love every body, you cant serve two masters you must love one and hate the other, the love of this world is enmity with God, anyway the smart fella asked "Good Master who is thy neighbour?, and Jesus began to tell the story of the good samaritian who did the neighbourly thing.
John 3 vs: 16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.
18 “There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God.
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#142814 - 10/29/09 10:10 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Marklon
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Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 367
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Brethren God does not love this filthy world,he loves his lost sheep that is in, quote and i will search even for my lost sheep, how could he love this world and he is coming to destroy it.He put fire and brim stone on Soddom and Gomorrow not even a blade a gress grow there, the flood, the city that was destroyed in the Holy QURAN. Travel in the land and see what became of those before who rebelled, that is why i think it is john that said the love of this world is enmity with god, and the Jesus that is seen coming in the clouds, with a sword dripping with blood, not the Jesus of 2000 years ago, that one is dead, may the peace and blessings of Allah be with him.Yeah and after preaching the Ingil or gospel, this filthy world has been condemed, to be destroyed, he is not comong to save this one, behold i come not to bring peace but with a sword.
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#142818 - 10/29/09 10:35 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Marklon
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Jesus is not the only individual in the scriptures to be referred to as the son of God, God did not father a son two thousand years ago, David is also refered to as the son of God. Any man can produce a child, but it takes a magnificient creator to father the mind of a magnificient child like Jesus.That is why in the book of John Jesus is going back and forth with the Jews , and they ask is this the carpenters son, we are not born of fornification, Joseph was a carpenter, but God is not a carpenter he is a Master builder.
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#142844 - 10/29/09 03:33 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Marklon]
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Noel2000
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Jesus is not the only individual in the scriptures to be referred to as the son of God, God did not father a son two thousand years ago, David is also refered to as the son of God. Any man can produce a child, but it takes a magnificient creator to father the mind of a magnificient child like Jesus.That is why in the book of John Jesus is going back and forth with the Jews , and they ask is this the carpenters son, we are not born of fornification, Joseph was a carpenter, but God is not a carpenter he is a Master builder.
Who else in scripture is called the " only Begotten son of God?
HOW DOES THE BIBLE DESCRIBE GOD’S LOVE?
BIBLE READING: Luke 15:1-7
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Heaven will be happier over one lost sinner who returns to God than over ninety-nine others who are righteous and haven’t strayed away! (Luke 15:7)
GOD’S LOVE IS FORGIVING.
We may be able to understand a God who would forgive sinners who come to him for mercy. But a God who tenderly searches for sinners and then joyfully forgives them must possess an extraordinary love! This is the kind of love that prompted Jesus to come to earth to search for lost people and save them. This is the kind of extraordinary love that God has for you. If you feel far from God, don’t despair. He is searching for you.
BIBLE READING: Romans 8:28-39
KEY BIBLE VERSE: I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can’t, and life can’t. The angels can’t, and the demons can’t. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can’t keep God’s love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
GOD’S LOVE IS BEYOND MEASURE.
These words were written to a church that would soon undergo terrible persecution. In just a few years, Paul’s hypothetical situations would turn into painful realities. This passage reaffirms God’s profound love for his people. No matter what happens to us, no matter where we are, we can never be lost to his love. Suffering should not drive us away from God; it should help us to identify with him further and allow his love to reach us and heal us.
GOD’S LOVE IS SACRIFICIAL.
The entire gospel comes to a focus in this verse. God’s love is not static or self-centered; it reaches out and draws others in. Here God sets the pattern of true love, the basis for all love relationships-when you love someone dearly, you are willing to pay dearly for that person’s responsive love. God paid dearly with the life of his Son, the highest price he could pay. Jesus accepted our punishment, paid the price for our sins, and then offered us the new life that he had bought for us. When we share the gospel with others, our love must be like Jesus’. We must be willing to give up our own comfort and security so that others might join us in receiving God’s love.
BIBLE READING: Psalm 136:1-26
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good! His faithful love endures forever. (Psalm 136:1)
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#142877 - 10/30/09 08:05 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Tman
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Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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Noel: How could "God paid dearly with the life of his Son, the highest price he could pay"?
God is the all-powerful Creator and could easily "begot" another son so this would be no price for Him to pay.
Search the Gospel and you will see that Jesus (PBUH) ALWAYS refered to himself as "the son of man", never the "son of God".
Adam (PBUH) is also called the son of God.
If Jesus (PBUH) was part of the so-called trinity, why did he not know when the Day of Judgment would come?
And he always said "I do nothing on my own, but through the power of God".
So he was "God" with limited powers and knowledge?
The Islamic concept of God is all-powerful,all-knowing, all-merciful, who is like nothing in His creation (a man who sins, goes to the toilet etc)and His creation is nothing like Him, so the concept of Him "paying dearly" is just absurd.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#142898 - 10/30/09 01:02 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Noel: How could "God paid dearly with the life of his Son, the highest price he could pay"?
God is the all-powerful Creator and could easily "begot" another son so this would be no price for Him to pay.
Search the Gospel and you will see that Jesus (PBUH) ALWAYS refered to himself as "the son of man", never the "son of God".
Adam (PBUH) is also called the son of God.
If Jesus (PBUH) was part of the so-called trinity, why did he not know when the Day of Judgment would come?
And he always said "I do nothing on my own, but through the power of God".
So he was "God" with limited powers and knowledge?
The Islamic concept of God is all-powerful,all-knowing, all-merciful, who is like nothing in His creation (a man who sins, goes to the toilet etc)and His creation is nothing like Him, so the concept of Him "paying dearly" is just absurd.
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#142900 - 10/30/09 01:05 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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[quote=Tman]Noel: How could "God paid dearly with the life of his Son, the highest price he could pay"?
God is the all-powerful Creator and could easily "begot" another son so this would be no price for Him to pay.
Search the Gospel and you will see that Jesus (PBUH) ALWAYS refered to himself as "the son of man", never the "son of God".
Adam (PBUH) is also called the son of God.
If Jesus (PBUH) was part of the so-called trinity, why did he not know when the Day of Judgment would come?
And he always said "I do nothing on my own, but through the power of God".
So he was "God" with limited powers and knowledge?
The Islamic concept of God is all-powerful,all-knowing, all-merciful, who is like nothing in His creation (a man who sins, goes to the toilet etc)and His creation is nothing like Him, so the concept of Him "paying dearly" is just absurd.
WHO IS JESUS?
BIBLE READING: John 1:1-18
KEY BIBLE VERSE: In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God. . . . So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. (John 1:1, 14)
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.
What Jesus taught and what he did are tied inseparably to who he is. The Bible shows Jesus as fully human and fully God. Although Jesus took upon himself full humanity and lived as a man, he never ceased to be the eternal God who has always existed, the Creator and Sustainer of all things, and the source of eternal life. This is the truth about Jesus, and the foundation of all truth. If we cannot or do not believe this basic truth, we will not have enough faith to trust our eternal destiny to him. That is why John wrote this Gospel-to build faith and confidence in Jesus Christ so that we may believe that he truly was and is the Son of God (20:30-31).
JESUS IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.
Jesus Christ is the Creator of life, and his life brings light to mankind. In his light, we see ourselves as we really are (sinners in need of a Savior). When we follow Jesus, the true Light, we can avoid walking blindly and falling into sin. He lights the path ahead of us so we can see how to live. He removes the darkness of sin from our life. Have you allowed the light of Christ to shine into your life? Let Christ guide your life, and you’ll never need to stumble in darkness.
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#142948 - 10/31/09 12:39 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Tman
Member
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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Noel: Quote me one part of the Bible where Jesus (PBUH) says IN HIS OWN WORDS: "I am God, worship me," and I will accept it.
Everything else is what people say about him, from Matthew to all the rest who wrote from what people told them at least 60 years after Jesus (PBUH) walked the earth. And the Bible says "according to Matthew, etc" that means they did not even write the original. And who are M, M, L, John etc, we don't know. These were the books accepted by the Council of Nicea after a VOTE!!!. What about the other books that were not "accepted" what did they say?
Why not follow the one Book that was revealed through the Angel Gabrael and has not changed one letter in 1400 years, The Qur'an?
Should I qoute from your Bible where the coming of the Final Prophet was revealed, in more than one place?
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#142953 - 10/31/09 02:00 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
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Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Noel: Quote me one part of the Bible where Jesus (PBUH) says IN HIS OWN WORDS: "I am God, worship me," and I will accept it.
Everything else is what people say about him, from Matthew to all the rest who wrote from what people told them at least 60 years after Jesus (PBUH) walked the earth. And the Bible says "according to Matthew, etc" that means they did not even write the original. And who are M, M, L, John etc, we don't know. These were the books accepted by the Council of Nicea after a VOTE!!!. What about the other books that were not "accepted" what did they say?
Why not follow the one Book that was revealed through the Angel Gabrael and has not changed one letter in 1400 years, The Qur'an?
Should I qoute from your Bible where the coming of the Final Prophet was revealed, in more than one place?
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:
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Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)
Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
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Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”
He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
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#142956 - 10/31/09 02:34 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
Member
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Noel: Quote me one part of the Bible where Jesus (PBUH) says IN HIS OWN WORDS: "I am God, worship me," and I will accept it.
Everything else is what people say about him, from Matthew to all the rest who wrote from what people told them at least 60 years after Jesus (PBUH) walked the earth. And the Bible says "according to Matthew, etc" that means they did not even write the original. And who are M, M, L, John etc, we don't know. These were the books accepted by the Council of Nicea after a VOTE!!!. What about the other books that were not "accepted" what did they say?
Why not follow the one Book that was revealed through the Angel Gabrael and has not changed one letter in 1400 years, The Qur'an?
Should I qoute from your Bible where the coming of the Final Prophet was revealed, in more than one place?
Other Ancient Texts
Not all ancient Judeo-Christian texts made it into the Christian Bible. These ancient texts are called "outside books," "extrabiblical books," or "noncanonical books."
Christian canons emerged through a complex process in which some books were "chosen" and others were left out. A tradition of use, authority within the communities, antiquity or apostolicity, and orthodoxy were factors in deciding which books were "in" and which were "out."
Why Outside Books?
There are different biblical canons. For example, Roman Catholics have a larger canon than Protestants. This means that Roman Catholics have some inside books that Protestants consider outside.
Books became "outside" because:
Some ancient texts were considered authoritative but were dropped before the canon was "closed."
Some well-regarded books were written too late and/or not believed to be apostolic, so they were not included. Nevertheless some outside books, such as the Didache, are as old or even older than some of the books that made the New Testament.
Other books were accepted by some Christian communities but not others. Sometimes:
they were labeled "heretical" by more powerful Christian groups like Rome
they were not popular or known well enough by Greek-speaking Christians
Still other books never came close to making it "inside.". In addition to heretical books that were excluded, other books were considered to be too outrageous, even though they were very popular. (These books also tended to be written much later than canonical books)
A number of books were lost or destroyed.
Some old writers were never considered as scripture but have historical value; they may be letters, or histories, or stories, or other kinds of records.
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#142957 - 10/31/09 02:47 PM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
Member
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Noel: Quote me one part of the Bible where Jesus (PBUH) says IN HIS OWN WORDS: "I am God, worship me," and I will accept it.
Everything else is what people say about him, from Matthew to all the rest who wrote from what people told them at least 60 years after Jesus (PBUH) walked the earth. And the Bible says "according to Matthew, etc" that means they did not even write the original. And who are M, M, L, John etc, we don't know. These were the books accepted by the Council of Nicea after a VOTE!!!. What about the other books that were not "accepted" what did they say?
Why not follow the one Book that was revealed through the Angel Gabrael and has not changed one letter in 1400 years, The Qur'an?
Should I qoute from your Bible where the coming of the Final Prophet was revealed, in more than one place?
Quran Teaches
Apostasy
2: 27 Those who break Allah's Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.
2:39, “But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.”
3:90-91 "Verily, those who disbelieved after their Belief and then went on increasing in their disbelief - never will their repentance be accepted [because they repent only by their tongues and not from their hearts]. And they are those who are astray. Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers."
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,”
9:66, Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin
9:74, They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
47:25,26 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them, the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 445:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet said, "Gabriel said to me, 'Whoever amongst your followers die without having worshipped others besides Allah, will enter Paradise (or will not enter the (Hell) Fire)." The Prophet asked. "Even if he has committed illegal sexual intercourse or theft?" He replied, "Even then."
(Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
See also this Islamic site.
http://thetruereligion.org/apostatepunish.htm
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Terror
3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah...
8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Moreover Allah says of those who reject him. Because, Allah has already sentenced them to death.
Unbelievers
2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
8:60, Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:3, And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
22:9, (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
22:19-22; These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), “Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!”
25:52, So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavour.
25:68 ”Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. “(But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
37:22-23, “Bring ye up”, it shall be said, “The wrong-doers and their wives, and the things they worshipped- Besides Allah, and lead them to the Way to the (Fierce) Fire!
47:4, Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
48:13 And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
48:29, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Afterlife
69:30-37 (The stern command will say): “Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin.”
22:19-22, These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"
Thief
5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise.
"Unbelievers are those who do no judge according to God's revelations. We decreed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and a wound for a wound" The Table #43-
"He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will surely be among the losers" The Imrans #85
"Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them." Repentance (3)#23
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends1. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers." The Table (5) #51. (Response 1, 2)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Victory 48:29
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They [the unbelievers] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal." The Imrans 3:118
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111:
Narrated Ash-Sha'bi:
Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked Ali, 'Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur'an)?' 'Ali replied, 'No, except Allah's Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).' Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked, 'What is (written) in this sheet of paper?' Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348: (scroll down to no.4348)
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
"Ali Ibn Abi Talib encountered a man called 'Umru and told him, `I indeed invite you to Islam.' 'Umru said, `I do not need that.' 'Ali said, Then I call you to fight.' (This was the same policy Muhammad used with those who rejected his invitation.) 'Umru answered him, `What for my nephew? By God, I do not like to kill you.' `Ali said, `But, by God, I love to kill you"' (ibn Hisham, "The Biography of the Prophet", part 3, p. 113; see also Al Road Al Anf part 3, p. 263).
Freedom of religion.
3:85, If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.
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Women
2:223 Your women are a tilt for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilt as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)
2:228, And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them
2:230, So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her
2:282, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.
4:3, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
4:11-12, Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:
4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.
4:34, Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
33:50
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
53:27, Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.
66:10, Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: “Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!”
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, "If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse."
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 122:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "If a woman spends the night deserting her husband's bed (does not sleep with him), then the angels send their curses on her till she comes back (to her husband)."
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 460:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."
Volume 2, Book 18, Number 161:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas:
The sun eclipsed in the life-time of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) . Allah's Apostle offered the eclipse prayer and stood for a long period equal to the period in which one could recite Surat-al-Baqara. Then he bowed for a long time and then stood up for a long period which was shorter than that of the first standing, then bowed again for a long time but for a shorter period than the first; then he prostrated twice and then stood up for a long period which was shorter than that of the first standing; then he bowed for a long time which was shorter than the previous one, and then he raised his head and stood up for a long period which was shorter than the first standing, then he bowed for a long time which was shorter than the first bowing, and then prostrated (twice) and finished the prayer. By then, the sun (eclipse) had cleared. The Prophet then said, "The sun and the moon are two of the signs of Allah. They eclipse neither because of the death of somebody nor because of his life (i.e. birth). So when you see them, remember Allah." The people say, "O Allah's Apostle! We saw you taking something from your place and then we saw you retreating." The Prophet replied, "I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, 'I have never had any good from you.' "
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)
3. A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father or brother. (TR. P 431 )
4. A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)
5. She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)
6. A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)
7. If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (TR. P 428)
8. If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428) 9. The marriage of woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)
11. Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431)
12. If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bokhari P 93)
13. The women who are ungrateful to their men, are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." (Bokhari P 96)
14. A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27)
See also http://www.islam-qa.com
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Adultery
Adultery in Islam is a great sin punishable by stoning and sin. But a Muslim can commit adultery with his maid or a married woman if he invades her town and captures her in the war.
[al-Mu'minun 23:1-7] The believers must (eventually) win through,-2] Those who humble themselves in their prayers; 3] Who avoid vain talk; 4] Who are active in deeds of charity; 5] Who abstain from sex, 6] Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame, :7] But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors;-
[Al Nisa 4:24] “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
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Sura 4:144: Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?
Sura 5:17: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth?
Sura 5:51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Sura 8:13: When thy Lord revealed to the angels, saying, 'I am with you; so make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips.
Sura 8:40: And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
Sura 9:5: And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
Sura 9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
Sura 47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her
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Index to some of the verses of Quran
* Torment to Non-believers-> 4:56
* Only Islam Acceptable-> 3:85
* No friends from outsiders-> 3:118
* No friends with Jews, Christians-> 5:51
* No friends with non believers->4:114 3:28
* No friends with parents/siblings if not believers-> 9:23
* Fight non-believers-> 9:123
* Kill non-believers-> 4:89
* Anti Jew verses-> 5:82
* God a "plotter", deceiver -> 8:30
* Killing Idolaters-> 9:05
* Idolaters are unclean just because they are idolater-> 9:28
* Forcing Christians and Jews to pay tax-> 9:29
* The Torment of Hell-> 44:43-58
* All except Muslims/Jews/Christians/Sabeans will go to hell-> 2:62 5:69
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#143045 - 11/02/09 03:49 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Noel2000]
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Tman
Member
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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Noel: what's the point of your post? Are you trying to point out "bad" things in the Qura'an, without the context.
If you knew the story of how and when the Qura'n was revealed you would knoew the context of these verses.I could go through the Bible and do the same.
What about the "good" points? You quote "anti Jew and Christian" verses yet in the same post you quote that "all except Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabeans will go to hell" so its not anti Jew and anti Christian then? Context my man, context.
Still you cant show me where Jesus (PBUH) in HIS OWN WORDS said "I am God worship me." In plain language, not things like "I am the I am" which is open to interpretation.
Even when the youth asked him what do I have to do to inherit the kingdom, what did he answer? Did he say "believe I am God and worship me". No. Go back and check his answer.
And if that was his reason and main message on Earth, would he not repeat it many times in plain language himself? Like in school when your teacher tell you the same thing over and over.
All that you quote are what OTHER people might have said about Jesus(PBUH)but he called himself "the son of man" on EVERY occasion.
As for war and slaughter, remember what the Children of Israel was ordered to do when they came to the Promised Land and what the Christians did in the crusades.
Why not quote the Qur'an which says "there is no compulsion in religion."
You cant pick and choose only those parts that seem to suit your argument, whatever that is. I could also quote a verse to explain ever one of these verses you have chosen and the Hadiths too.
The Qur'an also says dont get into any long argument over religion, just agree that there is ONE God.
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Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#143046 - 11/02/09 03:55 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Tman
Member
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: London, England
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Noel you quote "Sura 9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility." You did not mention the Muslims also pay the yearly tax, Zakat, so why should non-Muslims living in Islamic countries not pay the tax too?
Or if you have trouble with the word "fight" I could explain further.
_________________________
Assalamu alay kum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
(Peace, mercy and blessings be upon you)
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#143051 - 11/02/09 08:23 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
Member
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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Noel: what's the point of your post? Are you trying to point out "bad" things in the Qura'an, without the context.
If you knew the story of how and when the Qura'n was revealed you would knoew the context of these verses.I could go through the Bible and do the same.
What about the "good" points? You quote "anti Jew and Christian" verses yet in the same post you quote that "all except Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabeans will go to hell" so its not anti Jew and anti Christian then? Context my man, context.
Still you cant show me where Jesus (PBUH) in HIS OWN WORDS said "I am God worship me." In plain language, not things like "I am the I am" which is open to interpretation.
Even when the youth asked him what do I have to do to inherit the kingdom, what did he answer? Did he say "believe I am God and worship me". No. Go back and check his answer.
And if that was his reason and main message on Earth, would he not repeat it many times in plain language himself? Like in school when your teacher tell you the same thing over and over.
All that you quote are what OTHER people might have said about Jesus(PBUH)but he called himself "the son of man" on EVERY occasion.
As for war and slaughter, remember what the Children of Israel was ordered to do when they came to the Promised Land and what the Christians did in the crusades.
Why not quote the Qur'an which says "there is no compulsion in religion."
You cant pick and choose only those parts that seem to suit your argument, whatever that is. I could also quote a verse to explain ever one of these verses you have chosen and the Hadiths too.
The Qur'an also says dont get into any long argument over religion, just agree that there is ONE God.
Unlike the OT where Yahweh says over and over again "I am God, and there is none else" (Isaiah 43:10-13, 44:6-8, 45:5-6, 46:9-11), Jesus never once said those words. Not once did he say, "I am God." Since the God of the Hebrew Bible says it repeatedly why didn’t Jesus ever say it, at least once, especially when this is so crucial to Christian doctrine?
Answer:
The simple answer as to why Jesus didn’t simply come out and say, "I am God" is because of the confusion this would have caused the Jews living at that time. Noted New Testament Scholar and Catholic Theologian Raymond E. Brown states it best:
"The question concerns Jesus a Galilean Jew of the first third of the first century, for whom ‘God’ would have a meaning specified by his background and the theological language of the time. By way of simplification (and perhaps oversimplification) let me say that I think by a Jew of that period ‘God’ would have been thought of as One dwelling in the heavens - among many attributes. Therefore, a question posed to Jesus on earth, ‘Do you think you are God?’ would mean did he think he was the One dwelling in heaven. And you can see that would have been an inappropriate question, since Jesus was visibly on earth. As a matter of fact the question was never asked of him; at most he was asked about his relationship to God."
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#143053 - 11/02/09 08:44 AM
Re: AMAZING GRACE
[Re: Tman]
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Noel2000
Member
Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 407
Loc: west palm beach
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No my friend.
A common objection raised against the Bible by many Muslims is that the original biblical texts have been corrupted by the processes of transmission and translation. They therefore contend that the Old and New Testaments of our modern Bibles do not accurately represent the will of God. This explains why Mohammed frequently emphasized the importance of the Arabic language in the delivery of the Qur’an. Muslims contend that the exclusive use of Arabic insured the accuracy and integrity of Qur’anic teaching. Notice how these Qur’anic passages emphasize the significance of the Arabic language:
"Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him)" (20:113).
"We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.
"(It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil" (39:27-28).
"A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand" (41:3)
"We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom)" (43:3).
Mohammed taught that the Qur’an’s ability to "explain in detail," to "explain without any crookedness," and its overall "understandability" and usefulness are all attributed to its being delivered in the Arabic language. There are several problems with this defense.
1) In spite of the above passages emphasizing an "Arabic Qur’an," the Qur’an has been translated into dozens of different human languages. If the Arabic language was as important as Mohammed thought it was, for the purpose of maintaining scriptural integrity, then why have Muslim scholars and translators translated the Qur’an into so many different languages? Wouldn’t this constitute a violation of Mohammed’s will? At the very least, it is contradictory for Muslims to argue that the Bible is inferior to the Qur’an as a result of translation. If one argues that the procedure of translation necessarily corrupted the Bible, then he must also argue that the same procedure corrupted the Qur’an! Thus, if what Muslims allege is correct, by their own argument, the Qur’an is just as corrupt as the Bible! It is hypocritical for Muslims to argue that translation processes corrupted only the Bible, and had no corrupting influences on the Qur’an.
Noel: what's the point of your post? Are you trying to point out "bad" things in the Qura'an, without the context.
If you knew the story of how and when the Qura'n was revealed you would knoew the context of these verses.I could go through the Bible and do the same.
What about the "good" points? You quote "anti Jew and Christian" verses yet in the same post you quote that "all except Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabeans will go to hell" so its not anti Jew and anti Christian then? Context my man, context.
Still you cant show me where Jesus (PBUH) in HIS OWN WORDS said "I am God worship me." In plain language, not things like "I am the I am" which is open to interpretation.
Even when the youth asked him what do I have to do to inherit the kingdom, what did he answer? Did he say "believe I am God and worship me". No. Go back and check his answer.
And if that was his reason and main message on Earth, would he not repeat it many times in plain language himself? Like in school when your teacher tell you the same thing over and over.
All that you quote are what OTHER people might have said about Jesus(PBUH)but he called himself "the son of man" on EVERY occasion.
As for war and slaughter, remember what the Children of Israel was ordered to do when they came to the Promised Land and what the Christians did in the crusades.
Why not quote the Qur'an which says "there is no compulsion in religion."
You cant pick and choose only those parts that seem to suit your argument, whatever that is. I could also quote a verse to explain ever one of these verses you have chosen and the Hadiths too.
The Qur'an also says dont get into any long argument over religion, just agree that there is ONE God.
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